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Unread 12-02-2013, 08:57 AM   #31
lucdog
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Just in case anyone cares or is wondering about the OP's timing marks.

image-2646005549.jpg

I also have to agree with the dwell and meter, it's the best way to properly set the points on this style of distributor.

Bill

Edit, the picture is from the original engine in my '73 J Truck

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1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 08:59 AM   #32
big_o_tom
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Everybody just calm down a little. No need to fight over an old wiring harness! Lets go over this again, differently. Forget about anything to do with how the engine runs, whether or not I can set change a distributor, or how to set the timing(which I cant believe I did wrong, lol). There is a short or a bad ground or something that happened inside of ten minutes, from the time I turned the truck off until the time I tried to restart it and it wouldnt start and later wouldnt even crank.. This ignition has the delco distributor, gm style canister coil and the ford style starter solenoid switch. Nothing happens when the key is turned and the headlights dont work. The battery checks out ok and will crank the motor just fine when solenoid is jumped. I am not real good at electrical stuff but I some experience with it. I think the problem is under the dash. The ignitio isnt getting power and the lights arent either. This is the problem right now, not the points gap or timing or carb. adjustment. I wont be able to mess with until tuesday, but I'll keep you all posted.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 09:04 AM   #33
lucdog
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Tom, check the wires going to the points, I believe the last time I had a no start issue with a points distributor the wires ( or one of them) was pinched between the cap and the base of the distributor.

Bill
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #34
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_o_tom View Post
Everybody just calm down a little. No need to fight over an old wiring harness! Lets go over this again, differently. Forget about anything to do with how the engine runs, whether or not I can set change a distributor, or how to set the timing(which I cant believe I did wrong, lol).
Quote:
There is a short or a bad ground or something that happened inside of ten minutes, from the time I turned the truck off until the time I tried to restart it and it wouldnt start and later wouldnt even crank..
This information would lead someone to believe you have an issue OTHER than jacking in some timing to fix the issue,
And since the recently minted 'Expert' in all things electrical hasn't answered,
I believe I'll take a crack at it...

TEST 1.
Use a small jumper wire from battery cable size of starter relay, and jump to 'S' terminal (should be a 'Blue' wire in the factory harness).

If the starter cranks, or the starter relay tries to hit, it's not the 'Ground' or the starter relay.

IF the starter relay DOES NOT try to 'Hit' or activate, you might have a bad starter relay or bad body ground to the relay.

Quote:
This ignition has the delco distributor, gm style canister coil and the ford style starter solenoid switch.
Since Delco is the only place that made breaker point distributors with vacuum advance for AMC engines, I pretty well had that part figured out.

'GM TYPE' or 'GM', there is a difference between factory and aftermarket/discount store coils.
And there is a difference between 'Breaker Point' and electronic ignition coils.

To further confuse things,
Since we are now finding out you HAD (Past Tense) a Prestolite ignition with all the common Prestolite problems,
You DO NOT Have an ignition resistor in place,
Not a resistor wire, not a ceramic block resistor if you didn't install it.

That probably means you are toasting the breaker points since you don't know if you have an internally resisted coil or not...


Quote:
Nothing happens when the key is turned and the headlights dont work. The battery checks out ok and will crank the motor just fine when solenoid is jumped.
Now, this is where people like John Strenk and myself will separate the wheat from the chaff...
(Weeners from Winners, if you will...)

If you have POWER TO NOTHING on the key switch,
You have a cooked FUSIBLE LINK (Fuse Wire) or bad connection from starter relay battery cable side to the fuse block.

With the head lights being out, and head lights connecting directly to the fuse block feed BEFORE THE FUSE BLOCK,
That means you have a supply problem between starter relay and fuse block.

The most common problem in this area is someone connecting the roughtly 10 Ga. wires that supply fuse block and 10 Ga. wire to the back of the alternator to the wrong terminal on the starter relay,
Which you DIDN'T DO, since the vehicle started and ran,

OR,
You have an 'Open' in the supply to the fuse block.
That's usually a fusible link that protects the 10 Ga. wire running from the starter relay to the fuse block.

The fusible link is a fuse wire, it's the first 5" or so of that wire connected to the starter relay, and you will find a 'Ring' terminal on one end, and a plastic block about 1/2" around and 3/4" long at the other end where it connects to the main wire to the fuse block...

Battery cable side of starter relay,
One of two 10 Ga. looking wires,
Ring terminal, first 5" are fusible link.
The round plastic block and rubberized insulation (Wire will have vinyl insulation) will tell you it's the fusible link.

I'd start with fusible link and see if it 'Stretches' when you tug on it.
Don't YANK, just tug, if the insulation stretches, the fusible link is blown.

You can also take the connector off the firewall and test for power at that wire connection terminal... but prying apart that bulkhead connector is always fun...

Quote:
I am not real good at electrical stuff but I some experience with it.
I think the problem is under the dash.

The ignitio isnt getting power and the lights arent either.

This is the problem right now, not the points gap or timing or carb. adjustment.
I wont be able to mess with until tuesday, but I'll keep you all posted.
Like I said, I'd start with the Fusible Link, they sometimes give up, but my guess is you have a wire pinch or rub through somewhere, or you shorted out something powered up and cooked the fusible link...

That fusible link supplies EVERYTHING in the fuse block, everything under the dash, headlights, wipers, ect.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 01:18 PM   #35
JeepHammer
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Lucdog, can I swipe that picture?
I don't have one of the early timing cover scales, and that one is pretty clear, I'd like to use it, but I won't without permission.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 03:29 PM   #36
lucdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
Lucdog, can I swipe that picture?
I don't have one of the early timing cover scales, and that one is pretty clear, I'd like to use it, but I won't without permission.
No problem JH , help yourself
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 04:02 PM   #37
JeepHammer
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Thanks man, I have one out at the farm, but no pictures, and I'm not driving an hour to get a pic for the guys right now...
Getting to leave for Norfork VA. to service one of our military contracts, just love those 03:00 flights...
Why can't they have a REASONABLE departure time, like when it's daylight?

Hopefully, I'll remember to take my pocket knife out of my pants before I get there, only donated about 3 dozen to the TSA in the past few years, and it's getting expensive!
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Unread 12-02-2013, 08:56 PM   #38
zillla
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Back on subject, my 75 304 has the same timing marks as in the photo FWIW..

As for how a points ignition works, bein I am 66 and worked on many a points ignition it is not entirely a lost art, yet.. I for one will not shed a tear when there is no one left who remembers points ignitions.. Modern electronic ignitions are infinitely more reliable....
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Unread 12-02-2013, 09:35 PM   #39
lucdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zillla
Back on subject, my 75 304 has the same timing marks as in the photo FWIW..

As for how a points ignition works, bein I am 66 and worked on many a points ignition it is not entirely a lost art, yet.. I for one will not shed a tear when there is no one left who remembers points ignitions.. Modern electronic ignitions are infinitely more reliable....
So you remember going to the local owned parts store and asking for plugs, points, and a condensor for a '62 Chevy with a 327. And checking the price on a cap and rotor.
No computer to look parts up, The man behind the counter who may have been the owner, knew the part number.

Bill
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 12-03-2013, 08:48 AM   #40
big_o_tom
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Im pretty sure I found the problem. I was looking at the engine bay trying to decide where to start tearing off wire loom and directly behind the carb on the firewall was place where a wire had melted through the wire loom. It was one that goes to the coil, apparently it was to long so it was folded back from mid engine to the firewall and then back to the coil. Another big yellow wire(10 gauge??) has one side of its coating melted from the middle of the firewall to near the end of the harness at side of the engine. Can I splice in the correct size wire and solder the connection and be ok or will I need to get a new wirning harness?
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Unread 12-04-2013, 03:00 AM   #41
80cj
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Some ignition systems use a calibrated resistance wire in the wiring harness. This is the ballast resistor that reduces voltage to the points to prevent burning them up.
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Unread 12-07-2013, 09:09 PM   #42
zillla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdog View Post
So you remember going to the local owned parts store and asking for plugs, points, and a condensor for a '62 Chevy with a 327. And checking the price on a cap and rotor.
No computer to look parts up, The man behind the counter who may have been the owner, knew the part number.

Bill
I am desperately trying to forget that stage of my life.. I also remember setting a gap with a matchbook cover..

My dad wouldn't let me drive the 327. I had to drive a 52 Willys with an F head 4 popper.
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Unread 12-08-2013, 07:47 AM   #43
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zillla View Post
Back on subject, my 75 304 has the same timing marks as in the photo FWIW..

As for how a points ignition works, bein I am 66 and worked on many a points ignition it is not entirely a lost art, yet.. I for one will not shed a tear when there is no one left who remembers points ignitions.. Modern electronic ignitions are infinitely more reliable....
I'm with you Zilla.
This is 1889 technology, Tesla gave it to us, and the breaker points go back farther than that, I would guess to the invention of the telegraph...

WAY TOO MANY VARIABLES!
Worn shafts, Worn shaft bushings, worn cam profiles on the shaft,
Worn breaker followers, spring tension, capacitance issues in the 'Condenser', contact point surface condition on the breaker pads, the list goes on...

HUGE difference between 'Gap' and 'Dwell', and everyone thinks 'Gap' is what keeps it running...

My first 'Conversion' was about 13 or 14 years old.
Had a 'H' model International tractor my dad got to keep me from taking apart the family vehicles...
Rusted to crap, piston corroded to sleeves, ect.

I wanted that thing to START (Hand crank in the front, remember 'Jaw Busters'?)

I pulled the guts from a Chrysler distributor, used a Chrysler module and converted it to electronic...
Too young and 'Uneducated' to know it 'Wouldn't Work'...

Dad came home and it was running, couldn't believe it...
Delco 12 volt alternator, 12 volt battery and electronic ignition on a hand crank start tractor...
He bought me a 6 volt starter (Correct for the period tractor it was) and it didn't last long, needed a 12 volt starter motor...

Did an 'In Frame' on the engine, managed to push the sleeves out with pistons by jacking from underneath the frame,
Drove the new sleeves in with a wood block and hammer! Didn't know any better...
I'm amazed to this day I didn't crack the sleeves and that piece of crap ran!

I was bush hogging when dad came home one day, says the tractor 'Sounds' different, what did you do to it now?

I had cut down/installed a Delco distributor with Vacuum Advance and converted to Chrysler electronic trigger. Found it in the 'Fence Row' junk pile all farmers had back then...

Again, too young to know "It Wouldn't Work"...
Even seen a '38 'H' Farmall with vacuum advance?
Probably didn't work right, but I didn't know that at the time...

Been using that Chrysler conversion in Delco distributors ever since.
Just haven't found anything that works better for $15...
Works great on my Delco breaker point Jeep distributors, and in my AMC race cars down through the years.

In fact, so good I run TWO pickups inside the distributor for dual/redundant ignitions,
Or you can off set one of the trigger to RETARD the timing when you are pulling heavy loads, or when you need to retard the timing a little for hard starts. Flip of a switch you have TWO choices...

Not for everyone, but for $15 and a little time with a file, a broke guy can have electronic ignition for cheap...
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Unread 12-08-2013, 01:53 PM   #44
hutch1200
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I luvs my HEI. Wouldn't use anything else. OK, maybe if I had unlimited funds, I might go all MSD/Mallory. Points are for Pebble Beach, not my ponds muddy/rocky beach! As far as nostalgia for this old stuff goes, let's bring back Polio and the draft too! WOO-HOO. NOT funny at all, I know. I don't want to go back to this crusty lump!
Having said that the OP did say he wanted to LEARN how to use this old tech. " I wanted to fool around with the points some to learn about them so "-3rd sentence.
.
Now everybody back to their corners!
0615121248.jpg  
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