Old Man EMU 2.5" YJ to CJ Suspension Install - Page 42 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 07-14-2013, 12:04 AM   #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VooDoo2 View Post
I have them in my car, i know that a sleeve and bolt wont work for long due to the design. You can use aftermarket bushes in the OME springs though. OME dont sell their custom bolts separately so you need the shackle kit as well. This has all been discussed and documented in this thread already.
Define what you mean by "won't work for long"? I ran OME YJ 2.5" lift springs and bushings for 5 years on my Jeep with Warrior Products shackles with greaseable bolts and sleeves. When I removed the springs/bushings to convert to BDS 4" lift, the OME bushings were in nearly pristine condition (after at least 40,000 miles driven). Can't imagine what you think is so special about the OME bolts/shackles... if the sleeves fit the same in the bushings, what difference does it make?

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Unread 07-14-2013, 02:04 AM   #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spieg8 View Post
Define what you mean by "won't work for long"? I ran OME YJ 2.5" lift springs and bushings for 5 years on my Jeep with Warrior Products shackles with greaseable bolts and sleeves. When I removed the springs/bushings to convert to BDS 4" lift, the OME bushings were in nearly pristine condition (after at least 40,000 miles driven). Can't imagine what you think is so special about the OME bolts/shackles... if the sleeves fit the same in the bushings, what difference does it make?
The Bushes are designed to be lubricated at all times both internally and the outer surfaces. The grease gets to those areas via channels and grooves in the bush. When you insert a sleeve it cuts off all the lube channels and the greasable pin can now only grease the inside of the sleeve. This isnt the only issue. With a sleeve and bolt the bolt size is very small and the sleeve very thin. Its a common issue on trailers where the sleeve wears away then cuts a groove in the bush. Its common to see the bolt with a wear mark from the shackle as well. it may work for a little while but its not as strong, has design issues and defects that will eventually cause an issue. Of course some ppl dont even use a greasable pin and wonder why they have handling issues with dry bushes.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #618
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I disagree with a few comments. OME makes 2 bushings set, the SB87 for use with greasable bolts and the SB57 for NON-greasable bolts.
The bolt nor the sleeve rotate around each other. They are both stationary. The sleeve is pinched between the shackle sides and the bolt is tightened to hold that pinch. At least the sleeves I got from OK4WD do.
The rotating friction is between the outside of the sleeve and the inside of the bushing. Thats why theres a flat groove on the inside of each bushing plus a gap where they meet. The sleeves should have at least a hole, if not two, to allow grease thru. However the sleeve included in OME's greasable kit does not. I'm not sure why but maybe they feel enough may squeeze through the seam of the sleeve. I didn't feel it would so I drilled a hole in the center.
The person to ask about OME's greasing intent would be T.R. Burris at ARB in Wash. or someone at OME in Australia for VooDoo. Maybe one of their engineers could become a member and explain their intent to us.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 11:07 AM   #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VooDoo2 View Post
When you insert a sleeve it cuts off all the lube channels and the greasable pin can now only grease the inside of the sleeve.
Sleeves used with greasable bolts will have holes in the sleeve which allows grease to flow to the bushing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VooDoo2 View Post
With a sleeve and bolt the bolt size is very small and the sleeve very thin.
On heavy duty shackles, the bolts themselves are 1/2" thick (greaseable or not, sleeved or not) and I've never seen or heard of one failing on a Jeep. I had a friend who rolled his jeep multiple times down a 50' hillside which twisted his lift springs like a pretzel, but the shackle bolts were undamaged (2 of the shackle mounts actually ripped completely off of the frame).

Quote:
Originally Posted by VooDoo2 View Post
Its a common issue on trailers where the sleeve wears away then cuts a groove in the bush. Its common to see the bolt with a wear mark from the shackle as well.
This is not a trailer forum, I have no response to this except as stated above that sleeves with holes for grease will not wear bushings more rapidly than no sleeve.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 04:23 PM   #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
I disagree with a few comments. OME makes 2 bushings set, the SB87 for use with greasable bolts and the SB57 for NON-greasable bolts.
The bolt nor the sleeve rotate around each other. They are both stationary. The sleeve is pinched between the shackle sides and the bolt is tightened to hold that pinch. At least the sleeves I got from OK4WD do.
The rotating friction is between the outside of the sleeve and the inside of the bushing. Thats why theres a flat groove on the inside of each bushing plus a gap where they meet. The sleeves should have at least a hole, if not two, to allow grease thru. However the sleeve included in OME's greasable kit does not. I'm not sure why but maybe they feel enough may squeeze through the seam of the sleeve. I didn't feel it would so I drilled a hole in the center.
The person to ask about OME's greasing intent would be T.R. Burris at ARB in Wash. or someone at OME in Australia for VooDoo. Maybe one of their engineers could become a member and explain their intent to us.
OMESB57 kit is marked as "for use with original shackles" ie OEM/Factory
and the OMESB87 kit is marked as "for use with OME Greasable Shackles".

Looking through this thread there are a number of people that use sleeves and none have holes in them. I have spoken direct to ARB engineers regarding this because i originally bought the bushes and not the shackles. The sleeve would have to be made not bought and the bolt was 1/2" with a hole drilled in it making it weaker than OEM/Factory. Its a shame i didnt take photo's of the original bolt that had worn over 1/2 way through. If they had also been drilled for grease they would have snapped for sure. A sleeve/pin may work for a while but there is no way its going to work as well or be as strong as the OME shackles and bolts that are close to twice the thickness, grease the bushes correctly and were designed specifically for the application.

BTW, OME dont supply bolts for the non-shackle end
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Unread 07-14-2013, 05:45 PM   #621
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I just checked the package from my SB87 kit and it doesn't say that anywhere on it. And when I called ARB to find out the difference(between the 57 & 87) they merely said one was for greasable bolts, the other isn't. If what you say is the case then their marketing has much to be desired.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 06:17 PM   #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VooDoo2 View Post
Looking through this thread there are a number of people that use sleeves and none have holes in them.
So your expertise is limited to the posts in this thread plus your experience with one set of your own personal shackles? Why not just admit you are not sure what you're talking about and quit while you're behind?

For your edification, here are some sleeves WITH holes;

Daystar


Rubicon Express


Warrior Products


Currie Enterprises


M.O.R.E. Mountain OffRoad Enterprises


I understand we all have limited experience, but please don't state things as absolute fact when you don't really know what you're talking about. Others are here looking for accurate information. When you spread misinformation, it can cost others time, money, and more.

As for your conversation with an "engineer" at ARB/OME, they should know better... but they are in the business of selling their own product.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 03:14 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Jim1611 View Post
Are these the bushings you refer to? http://www.quadratec.com/products/16090_701.htm Also when you say twice as thick are you talking about OME bolts being close to 1" in diameter? If they're that big there's very little room left for bushing material and that amounts to a very stiff bushing.

I've sold thousands of shackle sets over the years and have yet to have anyone complain about my bolts breaking and they're 1/2" with an 1/8" hole drilled in it. They also fit through a sleeve that has an 1/8" hole drilled in it for the grease to get to the bushing. There's nothing special about the shackle bolt but it should be made from a grade 8 bolt. You can make your own if you have a way to drill an 1/8" hole about 2 1/2" deep. I'll warn you though that those grade 8 bolts can be pretty hard on drill bits.
If you have the OME bushes there (genuine ones not other brands) measure the hole. That is the size of the bolt that is used. From there you can work out the wall thickness taking into account the grease hole. No the bolt isnt 1" but the material in the OME bolt is twice that of a 1/2" bolt with a 1/8" hole. i HAVE seen these bolts break and when i get a chance i can take a pick of some that are almost worn through.

Spieg8: Thanks for your photo's. its nice to see other products are using the holes in the sleeve. Its still not going to make them better suited than the OME bolt which is what ive said all along.

I stand by my comments that the OME bolts are better suited and are stronger than an aftermarket bolt and sleeve used in the OME bush or any other smaller bolt and other brand of bush.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 09:46 AM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VooDoo2 View Post
If you have the OME bushes there (genuine ones not other brands) measure the hole. That is the size of the bolt that is used. From there you can work out the wall thickness taking into account the grease hole. No the bolt isnt 1" but the material in the OME bolt is twice that of a 1/2" bolt with a 1/8" hole. i HAVE seen these bolts break and when i get a chance i can take a pick of some that are almost worn through.

Spieg8: Thanks for your photo's. its nice to see other products are using the holes in the sleeve. Its still not going to make them better suited than the OME bolt which is what ive said all along.

I stand by my comments that the OME bolts are better suited and are stronger than an aftermarket bolt and sleeve used in the OME bush or any other smaller bolt and other brand of bush.
Keep digging...
You may be correct. Perhaps the OME shackles are the best thing since sliced bread. I'm certainly not here to bash anyone's product. To insinuate that everything else will fail but OME shackles will last forever is a petty egotistical. I think most of us know that the original CJ shackle design on our Jeeps was pretty weak, however there are people who're still driving today on their original 30 year old shackles (they have not failed under the conditions that their owners have used them).
What I take issue with are the matter-of-fact statements you made about other shackles not working with OME bushings, that other bolt sleeve combinations will not last for long, and that greaseable bolts with sleeves will not lube the bushing . You can stand by all that if you want. When the emperor is standing there naked... I feel obliged to laugh and point my finger.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 01:16 PM   #625
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Quote:
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Also this isn't an effort to discredit OME products but just to make sure the right info gets on this thread.
Exactly.
Also, if you go to the ARB website they have a chart with all 52 or so bushings they make and their dimensions.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 04:50 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by Jim1611 View Post
Okay I ordered the OME bushings. I will measure them. Also here's an image of an OME shackle set. If you look close they have a steel sleeve over the bolt. Those usually have 1/8" wall thickness but they can be 3/32" wall too. So with that in mind I can measure the diameter of the bushing hole then subtract the sleeve size and that will be the diameter of the bolt. The largest bolt I know of is from MORE Off Road and they offer a 9/16" diameter.

Also keep in mind we're dealing with YJ style bushings which are 1 1/4" in diameter. CJ bushings are 1" diameter with 1/2" hole through them, compared to the 3/4" in the YJ bushings, that's why CJ shackle kits are not sold with a sleeve. There's not enough room. Unless you're dealing with a shackle set none of us are familiar with it will have the bushing sleeve if it's made for YJ style bushings.

Also this isn't an effort to discredit OME products but just to make sure the right info gets on this thread.

They have no sleeve with the YJ set and OME dont make a CJ set. its all 1 piece of steel that has been turned on a lathe with a thread cut on each end. One end screws into the shackle plate and the other goes through it and gets a nut on it. Looks like ill have to remove one off the car and show you guys. I would have thought more people had used the genuine OME products before but clearly its only the springs that are used and a mish mash of other parts added to them. Ill also see if i can find the bolts that were ready to snap in the old shackles.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 07:15 PM   #627
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I don't claim to have any knowledge about this topic other than following this thread because I want to do the OME upgrade.

After reading all of this I believe the OME shackle product is the OMEGS11 to be used with bushings OMESB87.

Here's a link I found to the OME application guide:
http://4wheelonline.com/jeep/images/...tion-guide.pdf (page 20)

Also found them at Quadratec:

http://www.quadratec.com/products/16090_8009.htm

I would appreciate the experts here to continue the discussion to help educate us.

Dave
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Unread 07-15-2013, 10:16 PM   #628
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The turned down shaft answers the question. Now I understand what you're talking about. That is a good design. That would make the outside diameter of the bolt/sleeve 3/4". By all means take pictures though, it will be a help to someone in the future.
Thanks to Dave for the link

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Unread 07-16-2013, 09:00 AM   #629
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That does make more sense now and I agree that's a better design. It combines the sleeves and the bolt. However, since the sleeve is clamped tight with the bolt I don't think there would a wear issue unless the nylocnut wasn't tight. Ask me again in 5 years.
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Unread 11-29-2013, 12:50 PM   #630
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Matt, after reading all the pages is there a complete current kit on the market that you would recommend? Vendor wise also?
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