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Unread 05-23-2008, 10:37 PM   #1
jagerlager
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Official Engine/Assembly/everything else thread

This thread will probably be around for far longer than it will be entertaining.
I'll thank you guys right now for stopping in frequently to steer me straight.

Ive halted the body/tub repair work for now and will concentrate on assembly. I have a pile of new parts and know next to nothing. Should be fun!

My plan is to mount the engine from the stand to the frame (no hoist) and without the oil pan installed. I then want to install the new timing set and main seals, inspect/replace if necessary the oil pump. mount the springs/axles/etc.. clutch/ transmission/ transfer case. Then support the front of the motor, disconnect the motor mounts, install oil pan/gaskets, re mount engine mounts... and so on.
Is this plan insane?

My engine is a 1979 I6 258 4.2L

I have a Haynes manual, and it is helpful, but no substitute for experienced advice. so....

My questions are;

Is there anything I should watch out for as far as pulling the oil pump to inspect? any tips?

Should I loosen all the bearing caps so the crank lowers, and remove the main bearing cap all together to replace the rear main seal? is this safe or will I wreck something?
Is there a universaly Ideal way to hold the crank without a special tool while I remove the flywheel bolts,etc...

Any tips on positioning of the sprockets upon replacement of the timing set? as the old were removed??? 15 pins from timing mark to timing mark or installing in line with each other...?

Is the flowkooler water pump worth it, or will stock do just fine? I dont plan to do any extreme upgrading or off-roading... daily driver/back 40 tool.

A few pictures of my engine;

100_0023.jpg   100_0032.jpg   100_0025.jpg   100_0036.jpg   100_0035.jpg  

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1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-24-2008, 09:14 PM   #2
jagerlager
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I raised the frame up to the engine on the stand, mounted the engine to the frame , and removed the stand. I couldn't find any help today, so it was interesting.
I also removed the flywheel (to my surprise, no big deal with the impact)

a couple questions;

I'll start with the most ridiculous first....
1- Are the engine mounts correct?

2- Does everything look O.K. behind the flywheel? (freeze plugs ?)
How big a deal is it to replace freeze plugs?

3- the haynes manual says not to have any permatex on the ends of the rear main seals but to seal around the ends with permatex. I dont see how not to get any on them... any advice?

4- will I need a special puller to change out the timing set? or is there a trick?

Thanks!
100_0056.jpg   100_0048.jpg   100_0049.jpg   100_0054.jpg   100_0051.jpg  

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1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-24-2008, 09:33 PM   #3
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That upper freeze plug looks suspect. Much easier to replace it now while it's staring you in the face than it is to do it after you install the drivetrain and get the Jeep running.. only to see it dripping water from the bellhousing.
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Unread 05-25-2008, 02:11 AM   #4
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So is now a bad time to tell you the engine is in backwards? ;-P

Okay, maybe not. I'm probably the only one who'd make that mistake, lol
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Unread 05-25-2008, 12:48 PM   #5
jagerlager
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Quote:
So is now a bad time to tell you the engine is in backwards? ;-P

Okay, maybe not. I'm probably the only one who'd make that mistake, lol
This is funny! I actually had to check to make sure when I was about to bolt it on.

I removed/cleaned and replaced the core plugs today. My local NAPA is open on sunday so I lucked out. He even let me borrow a puller for the balancer.

I didnt notice one of the two cores was bigger... What is it? doesnt look like a coolant passage . I didnt have the right size plug for this hole so I cleaned up and re-used the one I took out (it was in good shape, and seemed to go back pretty firm).
I coated the outside rim of the plugs, and the holes with hi-tack before setting them.
no sockets big enough so I had to make a tool of scrap maple. had to beat the upper 2" plug pretty hard to set it.
If you guys see something amiss... please clue me in!

Thanks
100_0058.jpg   100_0063.jpg   100_0065.jpg   100_0068.jpg  
__________________
1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-25-2008, 10:09 PM   #6
jagerlager
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Replaced the rear main seal tonight. It went O.K., pretty smooth... Im doing the self doubt thing right now. Did I face the lip toward the front???? I triple checked, I think.
I just followed the Haynes manual. Torqued the cap bolts to 80 ft lbs.

I am concerned about the condition of the lower rear main bearing. It wasnt chewed up (grooved) to badly... just dont have the experience to know what's acceptable, and I am not prepared to re-build the lower end of this engine yet.

I was considering if I should check torque on all the main cap bolts? I only removed/loosened the one.
100_0069.jpg   100_0071.jpg   100_0076.jpg   100_0077.jpg  
__________________
1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-26-2008, 12:11 AM   #7
bluwtrsurfr
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ok im actually following this pretty close, I have to replace the rear main seal on mine and Ive never done it before. In the first pic with the seals im assuming the lighter color one is the newer one. did you get two or is that a second piece to the rear main seal. Also in pic 3 theres a little bit of rubber showing, is that an upper half, if so was it easy or hard to get it in there?
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Unread 05-26-2008, 07:27 AM   #8
jagerlager
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The black seals are the old ones.
Mine went really well, used a punch (Ive heard to be very careful not to ding the crank) to drive the old upper seal out from the one side until I could grab it with the pliers on the other, pulled right out.
the new upper slid right in with the grease, soap and a little muscle.

heres a picture of the new lower seal in the bearing cap with the grease and rtv on it ready to go in.
I have never done this before, I tried to follow the manual and some direction from members in another thread.
100_0075.jpg  
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1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-26-2008, 12:34 PM   #9
jagerlager
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Replaced the timing set today. Again it went pretty smooth.
I followed the Haynes directions. Rotated the existing until the timing marks lined up, removed them (pry bar on the small pressed sprocket), put the new on as a unit and in order, Torqued to 50ft lbs rotated the unit until top sprocket was @ 1:00 position to check timing (15 pins between).
Broke two bolts removing the cover , pb blaster, heat and a vice grip took them out.
Cleaned up the gasket surfaces, removed the old seal (it was shot), cleaned, rtv on the outside diameter of new seal and pressed it in(took some time for me to figure out that the metal rim was part of the old seal and needed to come out).
Looking back at my rear main seal job I realized that I wasn’t supposed to use any rtv silicone on the new seal ends… I did. I hope it wont be an issue…
I’m off to town to get some new bolts… and then I can put the cover back on.
Yes, I remembered the oil slinger!

Prayers and best wishes for our passed loved ones and fallen soldiers (and families) today. God Bless, and thank you.
100_0078.jpg   100_0079.jpg   100_0080.jpg   100_0082.jpg   100_0083.jpg  

__________________
1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-26-2008, 12:35 PM   #10
jagerlager
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the rest of 'em...
100_0084.jpg   100_0085.jpg   100_0086.jpg   100_0088.jpg   100_0090.jpg  

__________________
1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-26-2008, 08:28 PM   #11
jagerlager
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Here it is somewhat back together.
Torqued the flywheel back on 80lbs (I re-used the same flywheel bolts- Mistake?), installed the timing cover ,tapped(understatement) the balancer back on. and torqued it on 80 ft lbs. Couldnt find any info on timing cover torque so I set it at 18 ft lbs, probably over- torqued. fel- pro gasket and rtv.
I just pray theres nothing I forgot.
100_0091.jpg   100_0092.jpg   100_0093.jpg  
__________________
1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-27-2008, 05:38 PM   #12
jagerlager
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new oil pump is next.

So far I'm guessing I learned that;

A--Hammering on the balancer even part way is not a good idea.
B--My crankshaft bearings are most likely smoked (but did not check clearance).
C--use gasket sealant in the keyway.
D--18 ft lbs is probably too much for timing cover.
E--do not use rtv on ends of rear main seal.


I hope it will be o.k.. I dont plan on re-building this engine for a few years anyway.
__________________
1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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Unread 05-28-2008, 11:51 AM   #13
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagerlager View Post

My plan is to mount the engine from the stand to the frame (no hoist) and without the oil pan installed. I then want to install the new timing set and main seals, inspect/replace if necessary the oil pump.
Keep the engine on the stand for your engine work.
MUCH EASIER!
It's hard to turn the engine up-side-down with the frame tagging along!

Fix engine, button up oil pan, then install.
MUCH cleaner that way without the bottom of the engine open to disaster all that time.

Quote:
My engine is a 1979 I6 258 4.2L
I have a Haynes manual, and it is helpful, but no substitute for experienced advice. so....
More than one manual or 'How To Build' books are good, and there is no substitute for the Factory Service Manual.

Quote:
My questions are;

Is there anything I should watch out for as far as pulling the oil pump to inspect? any tips?
Pulling the pump is straight forward. Make sure you take time and notice where everything comes from/goes to!

Have you considered the later model 4.0L pump with screw in sump?
It's not a bad upgrade and pretty cheap, all things considered.

Quote:
Should I loosen all the bearing caps so the crank lowers, and remove the main bearing cap all together to replace the rear main seal? is this safe or will I wreck something?
Loosing mains always comes with some degree of risk.
I've chased in a new rear main without loosing any of the other caps, but it's usually MUCH easier if you give yourself some 'Wiggle' room!

While it's on the engine stand, pulling the crank isn't a bad idea...
You can inspect all the caps, bearings, clean out any crud, maybe throw a new bearing or two at it if needed...

Quote:
Is there a universaly Ideal way to hold the crank without a special tool while I remove the flywheel bolts,etc...
With the oil pan off, it's pretty easy to block the crank from rotation at the rod journals with a wood block.

If you don't have the pan off, you will need a flywheel holding tool.

Quote:
Any tips on positioning of the sprockets upon replacement of the timing set? as the old were removed??? 15 pins from timing mark to timing mark or installing in line with each other...?
There are TWO different kinds of timing sets!
Not all use the 15 pin method!
(ask me how I found that out!)
Make sure the 15 pin count is accurate for your engine...

Quote:
Is the flowkooler water pump worth it, or will stock do just fine? I dont plan to do any extreme upgrading or off-roading... daily driver/back 40 tool.
Stock pump should be fine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagerlager View Post
Here it is somewhat back together.
Torqued the flywheel back on 80lbs (I re-used the same flywheel bolts- Mistake?),
No, as long as the bolts are in good shape, they are fine to reuse.
You aren't building a top fuel dragster, so you should be fine.

Quote:
installed the timing cover ,tapped(understatement) the balancer back on. and torqued it on 80 ft lbs.
Usually, you can just use a longer bolt with the same thread to pull the balancer back on.
The parts stores have Puller/Installer sets on their 'Loaner Tool' programs, so there is no need to use a hammer on a balancer.

Remember this, you can sand the inside of the balancer so it fits will with no ill effects.
I'd rather you sanded on the balancer (easily replaceable) rather than on the crank (not so easily replaceable), and you should use a little 'Never-Seize' inside the balancer hub so it's not such a pain to get off the next time!

Quote:
Couldnt find any info on timing cover torque so I set it at 18 ft lbs, probably over- torqued. fel- pro gasket and rtv.
Not horribly over torqued, but the idea is to work evenly around the cover, from one side to the other, so the gasket gets evenly compressed instead of crushed on one side and gapping on the other.

It's a lot easier on the cast aluminum cover too!

I keep the RTV to a minimum.
I find it causes many more leaks than it fixes...
Nothing beats a well fitting, good quality gasket and having it properly torqued on clean, flat mating surfaces!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagerlager View Post
new oil pump is next.
New oil pump is a GREAT idea anytime you have the oil pan off!

I'd check into the later model high volume 4.0L pump with screw in sump upgrade...

If not, make sure your sump is held fast by a bolt, or have it brazed in place, or what ever it takes to keep it from backing out of the pump!

Quote:
So far I'm guessing I learned that;

A--Hammering on the balancer even part way is not a good idea.
TRUE!
In no way is hammering on a harmonic balancer a good idea.
Not only does it often do damage to the balancer, but it can EASILY wipe out the crank thrust bearing face!

I've seen more than one broken crankshaft snout from hammering on a balancer too!

Quote:
B--My crankshaft bearings are most likely smoked (but did not check clearance).
I didn't see but the one in the rear when you were showing the rear seal placement...
I wouldn't reuse it,... Too much copper showing.

Bearings are layered, softer materials on top, progressively getting harder as you get deeper into the bearing...
By the time you get to brass, bronze or tin, the crank is wiped out.

Seeing copper is a good indicator of uneven wear, or something under the bearing shell when it was installed.
The zinc and lead layers are gone, and what looks to be copper is showing.

There is NO SUCH THING AS 'TOO CLEAN' when you are doing internal engine work!

Also, ANYTIME you have a bearing off or loose for ANY reason, squirt some assembly lube or at least some heavy engine oil in there before you reassemble!
Anytime you can stop a 'dry start' you are a head of the game!

Quote:
C--use gasket sealant in the keyway.
Only if the key way goes through the front seal, most won't.
Use anti-seize on the crank shaft snout/balancer hub.

Quote:
D--18 ft lbs is probably too much for timing cover.
Probably...

Quote:
E--do not use rtv on ends of rear main seal.
NO! Don't use ANYTHING that will hold the main cap off the block!
The ends of the rear seal should have projected past the block channel and main cap channel, so they compressed when you put the main cap on.
No sealer required...

Here is one thing I didn't see mentioned...
The LIP of the seal should face IN,
Always towards the oil pressure!

So when pressure gets under the seal lip, it forces it out into the crank and seals things up.

If you install the lip facing outward, the pressure will just flatten it out and run right over it...
This goes for ALL seals... Lip faces the pressure or lubrication, EVERY TIME...

Quote:
I hope it will be o.k.. I dont plan on re-building this engine for a few years anyway.
You could have done some other things, like taken out the pistons, cleaned up the rings, cleaned out the ring grooves and made sure the ring grooves weren't pinching the rings,

A quick 'Glaze Busting' cylinder hone won't hurt anything either.
Nothing like getting the rings freed up and then giving them a surface suitable for seating again!

Pulling the crank and inspecting the crank journals and bearings never hurts anything...
Any groove you can catch a finger nail in is a bad thing, but just a groove here and there doesn't disqualify the engine...

Bearings are made soft so hard, sharp particles embed in them and don't continue to circulate and attack other parts of the engine.

If you find a large particle embedded in the bearing, you can sometimes pop the particle out, other times you just replace the bearing to get rid of it.
Radial scratches on a crank don't make it junk...
A few light scratches or grooves are quite common, sign of tight bearing tolerances and lack of oil filter maintenance...

Same rules apply, if you can catch a finger nail on them, they are of some concern, but if you can't catch a fingernail on them easily, then they are just part of the engine...

Used some 'Plasti-Gage' on the rod and crank bearings.
If you have excessive amounts of clearance in the bearings, you won't hold oil pressure, so change that bearing!
Plasti-gage is cheap and easy to use, no sense in not using it when the engine has the oil pan off!

When you re-torque the rod nuts or main bolts, make sure you follow the manual instructions to the letter!
Lube the threads that need to be, leave others dry, but ALWAYS follow the manual for your particular vehicle!

I, personally, detest reusing a rod nut, so I'm big on having the correct size/type of nuts around for the rod bolts...

DOUBLE AND TRIPLE CHECK ALL TORQUE SPECS BEFORE INSTALLING THE OIL PAN!

USE ASSEMBLY LUBE ON EVERY FRICTION SURFACE DURING FINAL ASSEMBLY!
Avoid dry starts at all costs!

Last edited by JeepHammer; 05-28-2008 at 12:37 PM..
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Unread 05-28-2008, 12:56 PM   #14
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagerlager View Post
I raised the frame up to the engine on the stand, mounted the engine to the frame , and removed the stand. I couldn't find any help today, so it was interesting.
I also removed the flywheel (to my surprise, no big deal with the impact)

a couple questions;

I'll start with the most ridiculous first....
1- Are the engine mounts correct?
No, the driver's side one is in upside down. The torque hook goes to the bottom on the driver's side and on the top on the passenger side. If you have them the other way they will tear apart very quickly.
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Unread 06-01-2008, 09:00 AM   #15
jagerlager
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JeepHammer-
Thank you! very helpful.

Mike- Thanks for the tip! I had no Idea which way the mounts go, my manual says nothing. I see now that before dissassembly both torque hooks were down.

I put the engine back on the stand to change the oil pump and check the bearings with plastigauge.
the rear main bearing clearance is .003.... my manual says .001 to .003 ---- .002 is preffered.
I assume if I want to change the bearings, they should all be replaced? And that this would include rods? and cam bearings?

My new oil pump came in friday (napa) looks like the wrong pump 4 day wait for the wrong pump... or is it the right one and I'm missing something? the pickup tube looks way off.
When I go to install the pickup tube in the new (correct) oil pump... (Ill see about getting the upgrade screw in type) do I just push that sucker in? or is using some sorta lube a good idea?

thanks guys!
100_0129.jpg   100_0124.jpg   100_0120.jpg   100_0123.jpg   100_0127.jpg  

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1979 cj-7
t-150 transmission
model 20 transfer case
dana 30 front axle - amc 20 rear axle
in line six 258

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473436"]Frame repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518603"]Tub repair thread[/URL]

[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562223"][U]Assembly thread[/U][/URL]
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