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Unread 04-26-2008, 04:12 PM   #1
ckentling
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Nutter - Rush - Weber funky issues

OK, I have a question, I did the team rush upgrade to the ignition and the nutter bypass, I also added a weber 34/34 carb at the same time, the jeep idles a lot better, but once I set the timing to 8 BDC with the vacumn adv diconnected it runs and idles great, but once I shut down and try to re-start it acts like it has ton of advance in it and does not want to turn over, let alone start. I can pump the carb and flood the cylinders and sometimes it fires over, but most of the time it acts like a car with 30 degrees locked in.

If I set the timing to 8 degrees with the vacumn connected it runs worse but will restart

Any ideas / suggestions / thoughts ?

Thanks

Christian

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Unread 04-26-2008, 04:51 PM   #2
Mike Romain
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There is supposed to be no difference with the advanced plugged in or not at 'idle' because the advance is supposed to come off a 'ported' vacuum source that only sees vacuum at speed. I suspect you have your advance into a manifold source.
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Unread 04-26-2008, 05:15 PM   #3
SuB8HaVeN
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If you do not install a fuel pressure regulator, it will run rich even while adjusted all the way lean. The Weber 34/34 needs to use a FPR, I recommend the Holley unit. Where is your advance vacuum tube plugged into? Mine comes straight off the carburetor (I also have the Weber 34/34).

After doing the nutter, Team Rush, and installing a Weber on mine I actually had to retard the timing a bit if I remember correctly.
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Unread 04-26-2008, 06:47 PM   #4
ckentling
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I have the FPR set at 3.5 going into the fuel filter and the offset outlet at the top. I have the distro plugged into the ported piece on the adaptor plate (the 1/8 inch port) and the manifold pl,ugged into the 3/8 on the other adaptor plate.

The timing is rechecked at 8 degrees, so I may try and back it off a hair and see what happens.

Where is the rich lean adjustment on the weber, the dcouments thta came with it were..... well... lacking

Thanks again
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Unread 04-26-2008, 07:11 PM   #5
SuB8HaVeN
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Shoot, forget the timing light, etc. Just crank your engine and let it idle (make sure it's fairly warmed up) and turn the distributor to adjust the timing while it's running. Turning it counterclockwise will retard it, clockwise will advance it. Just put it where it idles smoothest. Then tighten the adjusting bolt, drive it around a bit, and see if you think you need to fine tune it. Remember as the motor gets hotter, it will sort of advance the timing, so if you time a cold motor, it may "change" once it warms up.
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Unread 04-26-2008, 07:25 PM   #6
KBONSIG
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Has anyone changed the jets? After nutter, 3.5 PSI Regulator, i still run pretty rich. I can't find the jets for sale to scale down the primary to 45 anywhere - not even on the weber website! Anyone know what would happen if you swap the primary jet with the secondary jet? Will that lean it out?
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Unread 04-27-2008, 08:53 AM   #7
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBONSIG View Post
Has anyone changed the jets? After nutter, 3.5 PSI Regulator, i still run pretty rich. I can't find the jets for sale to scale down the primary to 45 anywhere - not even on the weber website! Anyone know what would happen if you swap the primary jet with the secondary jet? Will that lean it out?
So you folks do all this 'stuff' and have all this grief vs just doing a $20.00 carb kit for the BBD is all I can think of. Wow.

Thought of something... The timing advance plate can get sticky and stuck even if the oil wick for it doesn't get serviced every time you change the distributor cap and rotor. The wick is under the rotor and calls for engine oil.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)

Last edited by Mike Romain; 04-27-2008 at 08:56 AM.. Reason: Thought of something.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:02 AM   #8
xxxflhrci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
So you folks do all this 'stuff' and have all this grief vs just doing a $20.00 carb kit for the BBD is all I can think of. Wow.
I tried the $20.00 carb kit route and two commercially rebuilt carbs between 60k and 100k miles on my YJ. The results were always the same. It would run fine for a while and then go back to running poorly. A Weber solved all my problems, except for maybe fuel economy. I honestly get 13-15 (corrected for the tire offset) with 32's. You are the only person I have ever heard of that gets 20+ mpg out of a 258 running oversize tires.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:15 AM   #9
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxflhrci View Post
I tried the $20.00 carb kit route and two commercially rebuilt carbs between 60k and 100k miles on my YJ. The results were always the same. It would run fine for a while and then go back to running poorly. A Weber solved all my problems, except for maybe fuel economy. I honestly get 13-15 (corrected for the tire offset) with 32's. You are the only person I have ever heard of that gets 20+ mpg out of a 258 running oversize tires.
One thing that can cause continuing BBD issues is the carb float bowl vent. If black chunks appear in the float bowl, the vent needs a filter on it to avoid charcoal bits coming back from the canister. This happens when the canister has a dirty air filter and you run out of gas or have some other high vacuum situation.

When you swap to the Weber, this issue goes away because it doesn't hook to the canister right? So maybe you are only fixing 'symptoms' of a bad canister or symptoms of a dirty $2.00 air filter on the bottom of the canister.

I know of 2 CJ7's and 2 YJ's that friends own and I have 'tuned' that also get the same mileage as I do when we go on camping runs. We 'all' get better than any TJ along with us.

Stock, the CJ7 is 'supposed' to get more then 20 US mpg, 24 here in Canada in our old imperial gallon. There are others here on this group that also get the same as I do.

I know one of my 'tricks' is to keep the rpm in the 'sweet' spot or forget 5th gear with my 33's. If I keep her at 2200- 2300 rpm or so I get the nice mileage.

My totally fiberglass except for the rusty paper thin frame CJ7 also only weighs in at 2250 lb if I remember right also....
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:20 AM   #10
ckentling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
So you folks do all this 'stuff' and have all this grief vs just doing a $20.00 carb kit for the BBD is all I can think of. Wow.

Thought of something... The timing advance plate can get sticky and stuck even if the oil wick for it doesn't get serviced every time you change the distributor cap and rotor. The wick is under the rotor and calls for engine oil.
The reason I did the weber was that the carb came in a box along with the jeep (and a lot of other parts) and it looked like it had a cracked baseplate and needed a lot of love so I just bought a new weber in lieu of a new carter to try and keep it easy

I can certanly appreciate the KISS model, I will try the wick and see what happens THANKS
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:23 AM   #11
xxxflhrci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post

Stock, the CJ7 is 'supposed' to get more then 20 US mpg, 24 here in Canada in our old imperial gallon.
It looks like the 1986 CJ7 was rated at 15/20 when stock.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

It is amazing that someone with 33's carrying a load of camping gear gets better mileage.

My 1989 YJ was rated at 15/18 when stock.


http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

It got about that when I bought it with the donut sized tires on it. I figure that my 13-15 is about par for the course in a vehicle with oversize tires, a winch on the front, a tire carrier and full size spare on the rear, and 100lbs of crap inside that I regularly carry.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:28 AM   #12
xxxflhrci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post

I know of 2 CJ7's and 2 YJ's that friends own and I have 'tuned' that also get the same mileage as I do when we go on camping runs. We 'all' get better than any TJ along with us.



My totally fiberglass except for the rusty paper thin frame CJ7 also only weighs in at 2250 lb if I remember right also....
I don't have a clue what a fiberglass bodied CJ weights, but my YJ weighs 3600 lbs empty. I sure your 4 friends rigs weigh about the same unless they are all fiberglass, also.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 09:54 AM   #13
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxflhrci View Post
It looks like the 1986 CJ7 was rated at 15/20 when stock.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
When I go there, it says the EPA window sticker mileage is indeed 21 US mpg with 17 city and 19 combined.

It does show the lower reading you are quoting as the 'new' epa mileage whatever that means.

Quote:
It is amazing that someone with 33's carrying a load of camping gear gets better mileage.
My Jeep gets the same mileage empty or loaded, it isn't enough to measure if there is a difference and I compensate for the tires with the use of the gearbox to keep the rpm correct.

Don't forget one BIG one here, I have my engine tuned up 'manually' with no emissions controls robbing power. That gave me a nice 25% seat of the pants power boost AND a big mileage boost.

I also have to 'pass' tailpipe emissions so it 'is' burning clean! 15 ppm HC. .016% CO and 589 NOx.

Quote:
My 1989 YJ was rated at 15/18 when stock.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
Hmm, once again 'I' see where the EPA window sticker on your Jeep said 16 and 20 with 18 combined when it was new 'with' an emissions computer. 20 or real close to it is sure possible in a YJ that is 'manually' tuned up..

Quote:
It got about that when I bought it with the donut sized tires on it. I figure that my 13-15 is about par for the course in a vehicle with oversize tires, a winch on the front, a tire carrier and full size spare on the rear, and 100lbs of crap inside that I regularly carry.
Again, I don't see much difference empty or full, it has the aerodynamics of a brick to overcome which seems to be the main effect in mileage.

My odometer and speedometer are GPS and 'measured mile' checked as accurate so my 'mileage' is 'real', not off for the tires. The 'perceived' mileage drops radically with oversized tires on.

Did you also change your speedo gear to make 'your' odometer accurate?

When I go over 65 mph, I get closer to your reported mileage for sure. If I run at 110-130 kph, (70-80 mph) I only get 18 max which is still OK.

If my wife only got 13 mpg in 'her' CJ7, there would be a riot happening with me fixing what was broken for sure. It happened on one trip, I was messing with the 'Nutter' directions one spring and had my carb at full rich like Nutter called for for a 'test' when I was a car passenger in a passenger side t-bone hit hard enough to give me a stroke among other things and I 'forgot' that I had the carb set rich. Wow, that cost us big time on one leg of a 3000 mile trip. I was out of gas at 250-265 miles per tank! We normally 'look' for gas at 350 miles... There 'was' a riot and in the ensuing tune up I found the carb stepper needles shoved all the way in.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)

Last edited by Mike Romain; 04-27-2008 at 10:06 AM..
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Unread 04-27-2008, 10:14 AM   #14
SuB8HaVeN
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I had a 1987 YJ with the Carter BBD. I replaced that with another remanufactured BBD and it ran good for a few months and then it just started running **** sorry again. The choke setup on those things is a joke. It never worked right. I finally gave up with the 2nd BBD and bought a Weber. After that, I never had ANY issues out of the carburetor or choke, whatsoever, for 2 years until I sold it. I'm not up for having to rebuild/replace the BBD twice a year to have my Jeep run right.

My 1986 CJ had the BBD as well and it ran crappy and the choke was hung up so it didn't work. After going through the rounds replacing the BBD for another BBD on my YJ I said the hell with it and just went straight to the Weber 34/34. On an even slight incline, the BBD started crapping out. It was so bad that I struggled just to pull a 12' aluminum jon boat out on the boat ramp. Once I installed the Weber 34/34 and got it adjusted, it idled smoother than my fuel injected DD. The Weber is not bothered by even heavy inclines. Hell, you could probably turn it upside down and it would run. I've never had a lick of trouble out of the choke, I've never had to re-adjust anything, and it has run better than any Jeep I have owned ever has. Not to mention the progressive 2 barrel Weber carburetors are hands down going to give better fuel economy than the stock BBD.

Yes, you could spend $20 rebuilding the BBD once every so often, but when you can spend $300 on a Weber 34/34 complete kit and practically never have to worry about it, then why not? The Weber is such a more simple carburetor, and you can ditch all the emissions controls, vacuum, etc, etc.
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Unread 04-27-2008, 10:54 AM   #15
kharmajavah
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I know this is an old debate, but...

Although I wish I would have given the BBD more of a chance, my MC2100 runs great. I get the same mileage (between 14-16 in town, higher on the highway) that I did before, but it runs much better - especially after I did the Team Rush as well.

I think a lot of the mileage debate might have to do with what kind of "in-town" driving you're doing. Here in Tallahassee, you can't drive for more than 30 seconds without hitting a red light, and the lights are often very long...and, I often have to sit through more than one light cycle. I hardly ever get on a highway (which is why I change my oil every three months religiously, regardless of mileage).

I hypothesize (and yes, this is just a guess) that my in-town mileage would be higher if I lived in a smaller town with fewer lights, or if I caught every light green, if I didn't have to idle so much in traffic, etc.

JeepHammer - I don't know what kind of driving you do exactly on a daily basis, but you're a lucky man. In my 1999 Ford Escort (which I regrettably sold before gas got so high), I occasionally got over 32 on the highway and less than 20 in town within the same week. EPA says 22 in town, 30 highway.

So...the possibility exists that my town, along with others, just sucks for drivers. Such is the way, I suppose.
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