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Unread 01-05-2010, 03:02 PM   #16
kkochan
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1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Thanks for all of the helpful information. I plan to attack all of the suggestions above. I really appreciate the help. I will update this when it is done and look forward to letting you all know it fired up.

I took a test light to the set up and got a positive reading on the alt side but nothing on the other with the key in the accessory position. So what would be the next step? I suppose that checking the wire at the firewall is the next step? Sorry but I am rust a rookie.

BTW, i replaced the cables, the terminals are clean as the battery is fairly new. My bad.

Thank you!

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Unread 01-05-2010, 03:31 PM   #17
Area.3.Fiftyone
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Your fuseable link is bad.

If you pierce the wire on the alternator side and have power and nothing on the other side of the link that's all it can be. It is common for them to corrode and loose the connection without blowing.

You should have power on both sides regardless of the key position.

That wire powers the ENTIRE fuse block. If you have no lights, no horn, nothing then it's likely your culprit if you have checked your battery terminals and connections.
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Last edited by Area.3.Fiftyone; 01-05-2010 at 06:59 PM..
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Unread 01-06-2010, 05:55 AM   #18
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkochan View Post
Thanks for all of the helpful information. I plan to attack all of the suggestions above. I really appreciate the help. I will update this when it is done and look forward to letting you all know it fired up.

I took a test light to the set up and got a positive reading on the alt side but nothing on the other with the key in the accessory position. So what would be the next step? I suppose that checking the wire at the firewall is the next step? Sorry but I am rust a rookie.

BTW, i replaced the cables, the terminals are clean as the battery is fairly new. My bad.

Thank you!
OK, lets start over here. There are 2 fuse links, one is for the alternator, the other is for the ignition and headlights.

Maybe both are blown? That happens if you hook the booster cables up backward.

Your reading doesn't make sense. If you can manage to pierce the wire on the harness side of the fuse links or on the alternator side of it's fuse link, you should see no power there at all if blown. You will also need to fill the hole you made in the wire with RTV (as Jeephammer has pointed out RTV=Bad, dielectric grease and tape are best) or water will get in corroding it.

These fuse links bolt onto the solenoid and are about 6-8" long with a fat rubber crimp connector where they join the wiring harness.

If all you have is a test light, then I would put the clip on the battery negative and put the probe on the big red wire at the back of the alternator. If you see power, the alternator fuse link is ok.

Then I would put the probe on the red wire to the coil and put the key to 'run'. If you have power then, the ignition fuse link is ok.

If they are blown, you can buy fuse link wire by the foot to replace them. They must be crimped in place, you cannot solder on them and you would need 14 ga fuse link to protect the two 10 ga. circuits.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Last edited by Mike Romain; 01-07-2010 at 09:39 AM..
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Unread 01-06-2010, 12:10 PM   #19
JeepHammer
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There are TWO fusible links to the starter relay 'Battery' side.
Two 'Smaller' (Smaller than battery cable) wires connected to the battery cable terminal.

Usually look like about 10 Ga. wires since they have a special insulation for the first 5" of the wire or so...

Those are the fusible links.

If you follow those wires from the starter relay down to where they attach to regular wire, you will find a plastic block, about 3/4" long and about 5/8" in diameter.

Grab that plastic block and see if either of the fusible links stretch when you 'Tug' on them.
DO NOT YANK HARD!
You are only trying to see if the wire inside the insulation is broken or burned through!

This is usually the quickest test for fusible links.

----------------------------

Now,
If you check the back of the alternator and find battery power at the large 'BAT' terminal,
Then the fusible link to the alternator is still operational.

The smaller 'Red' wire should also be connected to that terminal on the back of the alternator,
And proceed around the side of the alternator to the 'BAT' terminal.
-----------------------------

You *CAN* take a volt meter under the dash and see if you have ANY power to any circuit in the fuse block.

OR,
You can take the dimmer switch plug off and test the center terminal in the plug with the head light switch 'ON' to see if you are getting any power to the fuse block/headlights since both headlights and fuse block are sharing the same 'Feed' wire from the starter relay (Through a Fusible Link to the fuse block/headlights).

NOW, if you find you DO NOT have power at the fuse block, and you can't find anything wrong with the fusible link 'Tug Test',
Then you probably have an 'Issue' with the feed line in the engine bay,
Or the bulkhead connector through the fire wall.

------------------------------------------------------------

If you have ZERO power to headlights or anything else,
Then the first place to start is the fusible links.

Tug on them, that will tell you right away if one is burned through because the rubberized insulation (designed to 'Catch' the burn) will stretch as you tug on the wire.

Cleaning terminals is always a good idea any time you have 'Issues' (and during the regular course of maintinance)...

If you still don't get power to the headlights
(which are a direct feed from the same wire that powers up the fuse block)
Then there is something wrong with the feed wire to the inside of the vehicle,
Or the primary 'Ground' has been compromised.

Since the 'Primary Ground' is pretty easy to check on,
Simply clean the existing ground wire terminals on both ends and reattach...

And if you still suspect the ground wire,
Connect jumper cables to the negative side of the battery,
Then clamp on the grill shell to ground the front lights.
If things still don't work,
Chances are it's the feed wire to the headlights and fuse block...

My guess is the fusible link has fried, corroded or stress fractured from bending with vibration or abuse and it's left you with an open circuit to the fuse block/head lights.
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Unread 01-06-2010, 12:35 PM   #20
Cutlass327
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Quote:
Take a test light with a sharp point or a multimeter, pierce the insulation on the wire and test both sides of the link.
Quote:
If you pierce the wire on the alternator side and have power and nothing on the other side of the link that's all it can be. It is common for them to corrode and loose the connection without blowing.
Quote:
You will also need to fill the hole you made in the wire with RTV or water will get in corroding it.
One of my pet peeves -> NEVER PIERCE WIRE INSULATION TO TEST THE WIRE!!!!! It allows for corrosion in the future. Even putting RTV on it will corrode it, because of the acid produced by the RV when it cures. If you MUST pierce it, get some of that liquid vinyl coating (liquid tape) and use it. I work at a truck garage, and I love when people pierce wires and use crimp connectors and no heat shrink. Imagine what salt water does to your car, then think about what it does to a copper wire with electricity flowing thru it to help the corrosion along. I get paid hourly to find and repair these 'fixes', so you folks that pierce wires make my paycheck very nice.

To test a wire, there is always a connection at the end of it somewhere, whether it's taped or bolted or a connector. Untape it, disconnect the connector, or just backprobe the connector. then retape when your done if it was taped.

I would test at the fuse box where the large wire attaches. Or just probe the fuses. If no fuses have power (some are on the ign switch and won't have power remember), then remove the box and look at the back where the wire attaches. no power there, and the connections are good, then I would replace the fuse link.

I have a 10' length of wire with alligator clips on each end that I use to extend my test light. That way I can have the light hooked directly to the battery neg (or pos) and then I know I have a good ground.
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1978 CJ5 258/T177/D300, '86 D30/D44 WT axles, 'glass tub windshield frame, and fenders, 31x10.5 BFG A/T, TDK galv'd frame - DD and weekend toy

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Unread 01-06-2010, 12:57 PM   #21
Area.3.Fiftyone
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If you pierce the wire very close to the fuseable link, you are going to replace it if it's bad any way and it doesn't matter.

When you are trouble shooting a bad wire, sometimes you HAVE to pierce the insulation to find out where the break is. There is no other way to test it. The same goes for a fuseable link.

A very sharp probe isn't going to leave any sizeable hole in the insulation any way and I doubt you would ever have a problem with corrosion from such a tiny hole.

I agree with using heat shrink or similar once you have finished diagnosing the problem.
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Unread 01-06-2010, 01:02 PM   #22
Cutlass327
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Honestly, you'd be surprised with even a small hole. I don't think I've pierced a wire in years...

BTW - not trying to be an Arse, but like I said it is the biggest thing that gets me fired up when I read wiring diagnosis or find the wires once opened from others doing it on anything other than a truck for me to get paid to work on.
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1978 CJ5 258/T177/D300, '86 D30/D44 WT axles, 'glass tub windshield frame, and fenders, 31x10.5 BFG A/T, TDK galv'd frame - DD and weekend toy

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Unread 01-06-2010, 01:53 PM   #23
Fjguercio
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sorry.... I agree do not pierce the wire.

You can use a ohm meter on resistance or set on conductiviy to see if a wire is whole. Heck you can use clip terminals to each end with hands free wiggle wiggle the wire and see if the conductivity tone stops showing this is a fault/break wire or a loose terminal.

We take our little jeeps where others will not... salt, water, mud, and abuse.

There are other options that will work well.... I have sold industrial wire build and test equipment. Hope you do not mind I put up a vote too.

regards,
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Unread 01-06-2010, 07:06 PM   #24
-AC-
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Oh, For Crying Out Loud... Just replace that crap battery already...

Or not.
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Unread 01-06-2010, 09:56 PM   #25
JeepHammer
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That 'Crap Battery' is showing voltage at the alternator and starter relay, so it's not 'Crap'...

I agree with Iron Maden, if he suspects the Fusible Link,
(Like I've said all along)
Then pierce the wire just outside the plastic block where fusible link meets wire is just fine for the test.

I've NEVER seen a fusible link that didn't 'Stretch' when it was bad,
But I'm not the last word in all things electronic,
And I suppose it could fail at the battery terminal connector and still not 'Stretch' when tugged on...

So at this point, I say nick the wiring just after the plastic block on the wire (Connection point between fusible link and supply wire to the fuse block) and test there.

Since the test is going to more than likely come up showing a 'Bad' connection, he will be cutting the wire there anyway, and the opening in the insulation won't be an issue.

---------------------------------

What I DO NOT agree with is using 'Silicone' or 'Gasket Sealer' to cover over holes in the insulation.

All of the room temprature vulcanizing sealers I've ever seen use an acid based solvent to keep the 'Goop' from hardening.
Once you introduce that acid to the copper wire, it won't be long before you get to do that particular chore again removing a bad section of wire!

I used to fill butt connectors with silicone sealer/gasket material (Red kind in spray cans and Blue kind in tubes) to keep moisture out.
What I found in about 6 weeks was I had to do it all again because the wire was completely corroded inside.

Switched to using a gob of dielectric grease in the connectors, and the problem went away.

The 'Hot Ticket' for sealing factory insulation is 'Liquid Electrical Tape'.
Doesn't corrode the unprotected wire when you use it.
Cheap, plentiful and available anywhere, just don't get carried away with it!

---------------------

Can't use heat shrink tubing because you can't get heat shrink on an UNBROKEN wire...
(How may times have you soldered or crimped the joint,
Just to find out you forgot the heat shrink!?)

Also, if the OP doesn't want to break the insulation,
(and you have to remember, that insulation has worked fine for 25+ years from the factory! Never a good idea to break insulation if you don't have to!)
Then consider testing at the fuse block.

There is on 'Master Fuse', just the fusible link,

So if you don't find power at the fuse block,
It's only going to be one of three things,

1. Fusible Link,
2. Bulkhead Connector,
3. Line between fusible link and bulkhead connector.

I don't think I've ever seen the line from the inside of the bulkhead/firewall connector to fuse block fail before...
It's not exposed to light, heat, ect. so it just doesn't fail like the engine bay wiring does,
And it's usually tucked up in there far enough the 'POs' don't 'Dink' with it too often...

To damage that main line, you would usually expect to find rubbed through wire loom (Corrugated plastic crap on the wires),
A spot where things melted through, or something like that.

If you can't get ANY power at the fuse block,
Then I'd cut out the fusible link and replace it first,
Because taking that bulkhead/firewall connector apart is a real pain in the butt with the sealer/undercoating they spray on it!
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Unread 01-07-2010, 06:45 AM   #26
jfwireless
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I have a probe kit for my fluke meter that has a pair of fine point probes just for this type of testing. I have used them many times on vehicle wiring with no issues, the point is so fine the insulation literally seals back up on the wire. I of course have no issue with Hammers suggestion of liquid electrical tape, I use it all the time, but shrink tubing will work here as you can slip some shrink tubing over the connector and fusible link and than shrink. I also use dielectric grease on my connections, highly recommended.

My first test would be to simply check for power at the fuse block before I started punching a small hole in the wire insulation behind the fusible link on the dash battery feed wire.

Jim
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Unread 01-07-2010, 08:25 AM   #27
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
What I DO NOT agree with is using 'Silicone' or 'Gasket Sealer' to cover over holes in the insulation.

All of the room temprature vulcanizing sealers I've ever seen use an acid based solvent to keep the 'Goop' from hardening.
Once you introduce that acid to the copper wire, it won't be long before you get to do that particular chore again removing a bad section of wire!
I am sure glad I never did too much of that then, I usually go for the wire ends to test. That RTV will also eat out things like a windshield frame if used to seal the rubber from that outgassing it does.

Haven't tried Liquid Electrical Tape, it sounds interesting.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 01-07-2010, 08:52 AM   #28
Boxcar
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God forbid any of you have to trouble shoot anything on the trail..you'dbe there for a week trying to decide wether to poke a wire or not.Look KKochan , IF YOU WHEEL YOUR JEEP I am sure your goal is to make it as bullet proof as possible. As I sed before REMOVE the fusable links and replace them with breakers!!!!!! Can you say Mill.spec? That way this will never hapen on the trail (see first paragraph) Your cj 7 wii love you for it . This may take 15 min. Do this wether you links are bad or not .Then check your fuse block for power. If no power clean and re seal your main socketed plug to the fuse block. If your battery is reading any power at all your lights will work so don't wast your time on the battery. Most electrical problems are simple to trouble shoot if you just use your commen sense. and don't over think it . Your Jeep has a very simple electrical system in it..
Your starting system and your lighting system are only joined at the ignition switch , other than that theay are unrelated. So if no power exists at all it cant be the starting system it MUST BE THE THE FEED to the box......Boxcar
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Unread 01-07-2010, 09:10 AM   #29
jfwireless
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Quote:
Haven't tried Liquid Electrical Tape, it sounds interesting
I typically use 3M electrical tape and than paint the liquid tape over the top of the electrical tape to seal it up and to stop the tape from drying out and unraveling.

Jim
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Unread 01-07-2010, 09:23 AM   #30
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar View Post
t . Your Jeep has a very simple electrical system in it..
Your starting system and your lighting system are only joined at the ignition switch , other than that theay are unrelated. So if no power exists at all it cant be the starting system it MUST BE THE THE FEED to the box......Boxcar
On his 84, the headlight light circuit is independent of the ignition switch and has no fuses. The only common points with the starting system are the main ground and they share the same fuse link at the fender solenoid.

Here is a link to the FSM 84-86 Factory Service Manual...
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89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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