New guy looking for some advice! - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep CJ Forum > New guy looking for some advice!

Introducing MONSTALINERô UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed LineCHASSIS SAVERô Labor Day 2 for 1 Sale!!!JKS Flex Connect in Actions!

Reply
Unread 08-23-2015, 11:07 PM   #1
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
New guy looking for some advice!

Hey everyone!

My name is Ryan and I've been lurking around the forum for a little while and finally decided to become a member. I'm a proud owner of a 2010 2 door JK Sport and I'm in the process of doing a frame of restoration on a '87 Chevy K5 Blazer.

I've been trying to get my Veteran buddy's Willy on the road that sits on a CJ7 frame. He's thrown a lot of parts at this thing and has about had it with it and I'd really like to help him out. It has a LT1 in it and a 5 speed transmission. I don't really mind it, but he doesn't like the handling of the steering. Between gears it likes to pull off to one side of the road when you're getting on it and I think it's cuz of the long throw of the manual transmission. BUT he doesn't like it so we've been throwing recommended parts at it to try to fix it.

So far we've put a new steering gear box, frame to gear box brace, Front spring reversal, and nothing to really do with handling but a chain linkage for the clutch.

The front spring reversal lifted it a bit and he doesn't want it any higher, so doing a spring over is out of the question. But when we did the spring reversal and it lifted it, the front drive shaft was too short and also changed the pinion angle. So I picked up some axle perches and going to weld them on. He doesn't plan to really off road this, so I lengthen the drive shaft myself and mounted it.

My buddy said that he was told that the top of the wheel hub is supposed to be a little more forward that the bottom of the hub and this is the proper angle. The problem is that with this "proper angle" all the steering linkage is wayy too close to the leaf springs now.

I thought about drilling out the the welds on the axle housing and rotating the axle tubes back some but he says this is the proper angle... is there anything other than high steering that might help fix this issue?

The axle isn't totally center no more and is more toward the front. I did drill some new holes in the axle perches/ spring plates to move it back some.. but doesn't look like it helped with the steering linkage any.











mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-23-2015, 11:09 PM   #2
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
I found a custom leaf spring company http://www.saintlouisspring.com/ that will make them with zero arch or even a negative arch.

My buddy doesn't really plan to do any off roading with this, if anything it will be very mild wheeling. He doesn't really want it lifted any more than he has too with the spring over axle conversion. I've never dealt with negative arch springs. This Willy is probably a bit more heavier than normal in the front since it has an LT1 engine in it. Can anyone tell me if the zero arch or negative arch springs will support the weight?

If they will not work, do you think a tie rod flip kit will?

Those springs will run about $360 shipped. Buddy said that he'll buy a high steering kit if all else ($475) but I don't want him to drop that much on it if he doesn't have too.
mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-23-2015, 11:54 PM   #3
only in a jeep cj
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Mobile, Alabama
Posts: 4,540
I hate to tell you this, but you have been rotating the axle the wrong way. All the parts thrown at it to correct or fix the problem probably wasn't needed. A basic set of degree shims would have been the best start. The upper ball joint should be behind or tilted back in relation to the lower ones. review "positive caster" in this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_angle
__________________
Ed
1975 CJ-6 1983 CJ-8
1986 CJ-7 Laredo 1986 TJ-7 Trail Jeep
2003 Inca Gold TJ Rubicon
only in a jeep cj is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-24-2015, 06:50 AM   #4
firegod33
Registered User
1977 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Posts: 1,068
X2. You've been changing the caster in the wrong direction, making the handling even worse.
__________________
Earth first... We'll Jeep the other planets later.
firegod33 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-24-2015, 11:34 AM   #5
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by only in a jeep cj View Post
I hate to tell you this, but you have been rotating the axle the wrong way. All the parts thrown at it to correct or fix the problem probably wasn't needed. A basic set of degree shims would have been the best start. The upper ball joint should be behind or tilted back in relation to the lower ones. review "positive caster" in this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_angle
Quote:
Originally Posted by firegod33 View Post
X2. You've been changing the caster in the wrong direction, making the handling even worse.
The suspension is super stiff even with test driving with the shocks off. My buddy was told by other jeep enthusiasts that the shackle reversal will be the biggest improvement for the suspension since the shackles were hitting the front bumper.

So we did that and it moved the axle from being center in the wheel well to being far forward. This also put the steering knuckle arms pretty much right beside/ inline with the leaf springs as you can see from the pictures. I drilled out the new axle perches and spring plates and moved it back some but it didn't make that much of a difference.

The axle perches are NOT welded and the caster axle can be changed.

But yeah I get it, caster has a lot to do with it. So what is the correct caster angle for these CJ7's? and won't the steering linkage still be way close to the springs even with a positive caster?
mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-24-2015, 04:14 PM   #6
Fourtrail
Registered User
1974 CJ6 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 345
Your caster angle should be 5-7 degrees of top tilt to the rear. This will raise the steering linkage further from the spring than what you have now. The relationship of the spring to the steering linkage does not change very much during articulation so close is fine. Also looking at your last picture, you need to move the shackle hanger mount farther forward on the frame. With the weight of the jeep on the springs you should have a downward to the rear slope on the shackle, a little more opposite than what you have now.
__________________
80 CJ-5, 74 CJ-6, 56 CJ-5
Fourtrail is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-24-2015, 04:30 PM   #7
firegod33
Registered User
1977 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Posts: 1,068
Some more questions, as they can all have some effect on ride and handling....

How much lift does it have? What size tires does it have? What pressure are they being run at?
__________________
Earth first... We'll Jeep the other planets later.
firegod33 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-25-2015, 12:06 PM   #8
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
Keep the info coming guys
mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-25-2015, 12:16 PM   #9
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
Keep the info coming folks! I'll have to do some reach and figure out how far to move that shackle hanger forward. I'm not sure how to measure if it has lift. He has a couple of different sprigs that I've put on there, these are the higher of the two. Then the shackle reversal raised it a bit more. But I'm pretty sure they're same size as stock tires and aired up to normal tire max psi.

I'll be driving by there on the way back from the VA hospital and could take more pics and better measurements.
Thanks!
mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-26-2015, 12:22 PM   #10
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
My diverticulitis came back to revisit me and I haven't been up to par to run back out there. My buddy just picked up a 2016 Z51 Vette and I swung by there on the way back from the VA to check it out but he told me that it was at his girlfriends in Detroit area. That's kinda good news for me thou cuz he traded in his '09 vette and his gf's new Camaro and now there's an extra space in her garage now. So this means that i won't have to tip toe around his pole barn this winter and have some space to pull in my own projects
mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-26-2015, 11:41 PM   #11
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
Your caster angle should be 5-7 degrees of top tilt to the rear. This will raise the steering linkage further from the spring than what you have now. The relationship of the spring to the steering linkage does not change very much during articulation so close is fine. Also looking at your last picture, you need to move the shackle hanger mount farther forward on the frame. With the weight of the jeep on the springs you should have a downward to the rear slope on the shackle, a little more opposite than what you have now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firegod33 View Post
Some more questions, as they can all have some effect on ride and handling....

How much lift does it have? What size tires does it have? What pressure are they being run at?
So I'm thinking about this and it looks like I'm going to do the following in order

1. Move the front shackle hanger forward to get the correct shackle angle. I do this first because the axle will rotate with the leaf springs.

2. Find the proper drive shaft angle and "weld the axle perch"

3. If the caster angle isn't correct then I'll have to grind out the welds on the inner "C" and weld the knuckles with the correct caster angle.


Iím not sure on how to get the lift height, so will floor to middle of the frame height work? I can also measure the eye to eye length and down to center of springs along with the tire size.

I'm still kinda fuzzy on what the shackle angle should be. This thing is pretty stiff so I'm sure my friend would like to have it a bit softer, so where is the happy medium for the correct angle?

mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-27-2015, 01:09 AM   #12
y2k-fxst
Registered User
1964 CJ6 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North English, Iowa
Posts: 463
Check this out, it is located in the stickies: http://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0n...NkE/view?pli=1
__________________
I own a Harley and a JEEP, still some people can't figure out why I'm broke!
y2k-fxst is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-27-2015, 09:15 AM   #13
jeepwhore
Registered User
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 3,663
I wouldn't be worried about driveshaft angle. If you get the caster within spec that puts the front pinion angle back to factory as well.

Looking at the shackle reversal, are the shackle frame mounts installed correctly? The brackets that bolt to the frame appear to be offset. If you could flip them around 180 degrees it would bring your shackle angle into a more acceptable range.
__________________
'84 CJ-7: Yota axles (spartan locked front, e-locked rear) 4" BDS, 1" Daystar & 3/8" shackle lifts, 35" X-Terrains on steelies, YJ Tub & family roll bar, heater blower upgrade, 4.2L w/MC2100 & Team Rush, Warn 8274. Rebuilt 4.2/4.0 hybrid, AX15 and twin sticks/clocking ring waiting to go in.

The advertised position for a topless, dirty jeep girl has been filled......by my wife. Thanks to all that applied.
<------------and yes, that is her.
:-D
jeepwhore is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-27-2015, 11:13 AM   #14
mudpupxxx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k-fxst View Post
Check this out, it is located in the stickies: http://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0nF...NkE/view?pli=1
Thanks for that I'll read it right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepwhore View Post
I wouldn't be worried about driveshaft angle. If you get the caster within spec that puts the front pinion angle back to factory as well.

Looking at the shackle reversal, are the shackle frame mounts installed correctly? The brackets that bolt to the frame appear to be offset. If you could flip them around 180 degrees it would bring your shackle angle into a more acceptable range.
Yep I'm 100% positive that these are installed correctly and the distance from eye to eye are right. --the hangers have larger holes on the outside of the frame because the bolt sleeves have to go in there so to make the frame wall stable when torquing things down.

Here's the kit, instructions are on there as well.
http://www.roughcountry.com/jeep-cj-...-kit-5060.html

It just ponders me as to way the shackle angle would be off..? Any idea on what angle they should be?

I'm about to leave and run out there now. He lives out in the sticks and I'll be lucky to be able to send out a text lol
mudpupxxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 08-27-2015, 11:56 AM   #15
jeepwhore
Registered User
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Posts: 3,663
The shackle angle is probably off because those look like 4" lift springs judging by the large arc in them. If they are lower quality springs like rough country or pro comp there is a chance the springs are slightly too short to begin with and the extra arc and additional lift from the reversal would compound that issue. The spring end of the shackle should be angled towards the back of the Jeep. As the springs settle the angle will get better but driving it as it is would probably lead to the shackles inverting and damaging the springs.
__________________
'84 CJ-7: Yota axles (spartan locked front, e-locked rear) 4" BDS, 1" Daystar & 3/8" shackle lifts, 35" X-Terrains on steelies, YJ Tub & family roll bar, heater blower upgrade, 4.2L w/MC2100 & Team Rush, Warn 8274. Rebuilt 4.2/4.0 hybrid, AX15 and twin sticks/clocking ring waiting to go in.

The advertised position for a topless, dirty jeep girl has been filled......by my wife. Thanks to all that applied.
<------------and yes, that is her.
:-D
jeepwhore is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools






Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.