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Unread 08-26-2014, 11:39 AM   #46
JeepHammer
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1973 CJ5 
 
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Location: South West Indiana
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Choke wiring is usually going out to a relay.
The relay is expected to open/close the circuit.

As far as I know, you don't have a relay.

Plugged directly into the choke, it would draw constant current and run the battery down, show what you are seeing... *IF* that circuit is NOT fused.

If it's fused, and it should be, with the fuses pulled it shouldn't show any current draw, and when 'Resistance' tested, it should show an 'OPEN' or 'OVER LIMIT' on the meter...
If it's NOT fused, or it's a 'Sneak Circuit' feeding it, it may not be fused...

-------------

Pull the two wires off the choke heater, then test for resistance between the terminals.
If your choke heater shows around 13 Ohms resistance, you probably found the issue.

Test the wires for VOLTAGE.
If you show voltage at either one of them, you have found a 'Sneak Circuit', something powering up the choke when it shouldn't be,
OR,
You found the supply wire to the choke.

Since the fuel pump and choke are on the same circuit,
And there is supposed to be an oil pressure switch AND a relay in that circuit to disconnect the circuit when the engine isn't running, it just might be powered full time...

But again, with the fuse out of the circuit, it SHOULD NOT be powered with the fuse out...

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Unread 08-26-2014, 12:04 PM   #47
sabbyATL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Choke wiring is usually going out to a relay.
The relay is expected to open/close the circuit.

As far as I know, you don't have a relay.

Plugged directly into the choke, it would draw constant current and run the battery down, show what you are seeing... *IF* that circuit is NOT fused.

If it's fused, and it should be, with the fuses pulled it shouldn't show any current draw, and when 'Resistance' tested, it should show an 'OPEN' or 'OVER LIMIT' on the meter...
If it's NOT fused, or it's a 'Sneak Circuit' feeding it, it may not be fused...

-------------

Pull the two wires off the choke heater, then test for resistance between the terminals.
If your choke heater shows around 13 Ohms resistance, you probably found the issue.

Test the wires for VOLTAGE.
If you show voltage at either one of them, you have found a 'Sneak Circuit', something powering up the choke when it shouldn't be,
OR,
You found the supply wire to the choke.

Since the fuel pump and choke are on the same circuit,
And there is supposed to be an oil pressure switch AND a relay in that circuit to disconnect the circuit when the engine isn't running, it just might be powered full time...

But again, with the fuse out of the circuit, it SHOULD NOT be powered with the fuse out...


Yes, the choke, and the fuel pump, are fused. The fuse is out right now but it's normally fused.

I'll check the choke this afternoon.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 12:28 PM   #48
JeepHammer
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OK, re-reading, maybe I mis-understood...

What you are saying is the GRAPH says there should be a 13 Ohm load on the choke/fuel pump circuit,
Not that you actually found a 13 Ohm load on the choke/fuel pump circuit...

-------------------

So we are back to testing things, looking for the load/short depending on what it is...

Nothing is ruled out at this point, you just found some guidelines to test your fused circuits by...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 12:52 PM   #49
sabbyATL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
OK, re-reading, maybe I mis-understood...

What you are saying is the GRAPH says there should be a 13 Ohm load on the choke/fuel pump circuit,
Not that you actually found a 13 Ohm load on the choke/fuel pump circuit...

-------------------

So we are back to testing things, looking for the load/short depending on what it is...

Nothing is ruled out at this point, you just found some guidelines to test your fused circuits by...
So, I tested the resistance on all the wires in all the circuits in the fuse panel. The choke power/fuel pump wires are spliced together and they have13.3 ohms of resistance while sitting in the fuse panel with no fuse.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 01:07 PM   #50
JeepHammer
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I know this has been beaten to death, but here goes...

Right now, we have NO IDEA what is leaking/connected/shorted,
We just know there is a connection, a completed circuit back to "Ground" somewhere...

---------

Personally, I would go at this from a little different route than what has been suggested.

If you want to use 'Resistance' to chase this down,
Then consider this...

1. VERIFY the starter relay on the fender.
Simply unbolt it from the fender, check your current volt meter at the battery negative.

If the leak is in the relay, it will 'Open' when you disconnect the 'Ground' to the relay.
This will VERIFY the relay isn't the source of the leak/short.

...

2. Take the main power feed off the battery cable, touch it to the battery positive and see if it's still showing voltage at the 'Ground' connection.
When the master power wire is disconnected from Positive the reading should drop. When connected it should show voltage from ground cable to battery negative.

This VERIFIES the 'Draw' is actually from the fuse block it's self.

...

3. All the fuses are pulled, so we only have to concern ourselves with the circuits that are still connected to power with the fuses out...
To VERIFY the circuits are 'Dead' where the fuses are pulled,
Ground one terminal of the tester,
Probe the OUTBOUND, 'To Accessory' ends of those wires for voltage.

All *Should* be dead. If you find voltage on one of the lines with fuses pulled, you have found a 'Sneak Circuit' since all voltage should be 'Dead' with the fuses pulled.

You accomplish this by finding a blade connector that will fit in the fuse block,
One side of each fuse slot *Should* be 'Hot', the other side of each fuse *Should* be Dead for voltage.
If you find one that is 'Hot' on both sides, you found a sneak circuit...

Trace that circuit back to it's accessory and find out where it's getting power from.

...

4. Trace the back of the fuse block,
Find out where ALL full time hot wires go.
If they hook up to anything, you will need to find what they hook up to and VERIFY those accessories...

This is where the 'Resistance' comes in,
If you find a circuit that is powering something up, showing VOLTAGE moving through the accessory connection,
Then find that circuit's 'Ground',
Cut power, test between 'Power' wire and 'Ground' wire.
This will give you a resistance reading of the drain/load/short.

...

5. To further narrow down the load,
If there are connectors in the 'Hot' line to anything, example would be the head light switch or dimmer switch, you would disconnect that switch and test again for power moving to ground on BOTH SIDES of the connector break.

You would test for power TO the headlight switch,
You would test for power OUT of the headlight switch,
You would test the line between dimmer switch and dash bright light indicator,
You would test the line going out to bright headlights,
You would test the line going to the dim headlights,

You would test for power at the park light output on the headlight switch,
You would test for power escaping to the dash light output,
You would test for power escaping the tail light output, ect.

You are going to have to chase this down ONE WIRE AT A TIME,
Start at the beginning, the connection to battery power,
Test the starter relay,
Test the main power wire,
Test at every wire that comes off the main power wire at the fuse block,
And everything that connects to those wires, one wire at a time.

Since this is a VOLTAGE leak, you are looking for that voltage where it should NOT be...

With the key switch out of the circuit, testing the fuses should be easy, there shouldn't be hardly ANY of the circuits 'HOT',
The only thing I can think of is headlights and brake lights/turn signals/flashers (and sometimes horn).
These MUST function, and usually have full time power, even if it goes through a fuse first out to these items.

The rest of the circuits should be 'Dead' so don't expect to find much there, especially with fuses pulled, But it's part of the diagnostic process.
If you find power at a fuse that SHOULD NOT be powered up, you found a 'Sneak Circuit'.
Don't discount 'Sneak Circuits', they happen all the time, but a Jeep is so simple there shouldn't be much of a chance of cross wiring going on...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 01:10 PM   #51
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabbyATL View Post
So, I tested the resistance on all the wires in all the circuits in the fuse panel. The choke power/fuel pump wires are spliced together and they have13.3 ohms of resistance while sitting in the fuse panel with no fuse.
Find the resistance.
Is there a resistor in the harness, or is the resistance coming from an accessory.

Pull the choke/fuel pump wire from where ever it goes,
Test for resistance between the end of that wire and the fuse.

Nothing hooked up and it shows resistance, then there is a resistor wire or resistor built into the wiring somewhere and explains a lot...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 01:35 PM   #52
Mike Romain
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The fuse for the choke should show choke resistance to ground on one side of the fuse only. The side that goes to the choke. The other side of the fuse should show as open.

When the key switch is in run, then the other side will show resistance to the solenoid power wire. If the other side shows resistance to the solenoid power wire with the key off, then you have found the problem. There is a fix, but we only will get into that if needed.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 01:41 PM   #53
JeepHammer
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Location: South West Indiana
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*IF* a resistor line has power and is grounded, it will 'Consume' current, turning it into heat.
That *Could* be what you are reading, but only *IF* that fuel pump/choke circuit is powered, and only *IF* it's grounded someplace.

Disconnecting the choke *IF* it's hooked up, and *IF* it's getting power could be your draw since we don't know what amperage the draw was pulling..



Test for power at the choke wires, see if either of them is 'Hot' right now.

A resistor on an open line, connected to nothing, draws nothing and shouldn't show up as a draw or drain.
No power on either of the choke wires means the choke isn't your draw...
But since it's also hooked up to the fuel pump, you have to test that switch/circuit also.
Same drill, see if either of the wires are 'Hot',

RESISTANCE test between the legs of the switch will tell you if the switch is actually 'OFF' or not.
Very high resistance means the switch is 'OFF', very low resistance means the switch is 'ON',
Moderate resistance tells you the switch is bad.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 01:42 PM   #54
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
The fuse for the choke should show choke resistance to ground on one side of the fuse only. The side that goes to the choke. The other side of the fuse should show as open.

When the key switch is in run, then the other side will show resistance to the solenoid power wire. If the other side shows resistance to the solenoid power wire with the key off, then you have found the problem. There is a fix, but we only will get into that if needed.
Mike, if that's it, I have a reasonable diagram for oil pressure switch/relay for the choke.
With second relay, the oil pressure switch can be used for the fuel pump also...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 02:54 PM   #55
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post

Mike, if that's it, I have a reasonable diagram for oil pressure switch/relay for the choke.
With second relay, the oil pressure switch can be used for the fuel pump also...
Naw, that's not going to be it. She has the draw with the fuses out.... Now down the road she might want to invest in the oil pressure switch for a safety on the aux fuel pump, but she is in the south so the choke timing isn't such an issue.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 08-26-2014, 03:58 PM   #56
sabbyATL
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1974 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
I know this has been beaten to death, but here goes...

Right now, we have NO IDEA what is leaking/connected/shorted,
We just know there is a connection, a completed circuit back to "Ground" somewhere...

---------

Personally, I would go at this from a little different route than what has been suggested.

If you want to use 'Resistance' to chase this down,
Then consider this...

1. VERIFY the starter relay on the fender.
Simply unbolt it from the fender, check your current volt meter at the battery negative.

If the leak is in the relay, it will 'Open' when you disconnect the 'Ground' to the relay.
This will VERIFY the relay isn't the source of the leak/short.
Unbolt from the fender....are any wires connected to it or am I testing the relay by itself?

I don't quite understand what I'm supposed to do to check the starter solenoid...



Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
...

2. Take the main power feed off the battery cable, touch it to the battery positive and see if it's still showing voltage at the 'Ground' connection.
When the master power wire is disconnected from Positive the reading should drop. When connected it should show voltage from ground cable to battery negative.

This VERIFIES the 'Draw' is actually from the fuse block it's self.
I think I understand...instead of the battery positive going to terminal A on the starter solenoid and giving power to the solenoid power wire, aka power to the fuse panel, I should touch the solenoid power wire directly to the batter positive terminal. Is that right? And measure the voltage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
...

3. All the fuses are pulled, so we only have to concern ourselves with the circuits that are still connected to power with the fuses out...
To VERIFY the circuits are 'Dead' where the fuses are pulled,
Ground one terminal of the tester,
Probe the OUTBOUND, 'To Accessory' ends of those wires for voltage.

All *Should* be dead. If you find voltage on one of the lines with fuses pulled, you have found a 'Sneak Circuit' since all voltage should be 'Dead' with the fuses pulled.

You accomplish this by finding a blade connector that will fit in the fuse block,
One side of each fuse slot *Should* be 'Hot', the other side of each fuse *Should* be Dead for voltage.
If you find one that is 'Hot' on both sides, you found a sneak circuit...

Trace that circuit back to it's accessory and find out where it's getting power from.

I don't understand this. ..I mean I understand the concept but I don't know what that means for My fuse panel. The connectors in the fuse panel aren't blades. They're little clips. I don't know to look for a hot side and a dead side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
...

4. Trace the back of the fuse block,
Find out where ALL full time hot wires go.
If they hook up to anything, you will need to find what they hook up to and VERIFY those accessories...

This is where the 'Resistance' comes in,
If you find a circuit that is powering something up, showing VOLTAGE moving through the accessory connection,
Then find that circuit's 'Ground',
Cut power, test between 'Power' wire and 'Ground' wire.
This will give you a resistance reading of the drain/load/short.

The full time hot wires will be the ones showing voltage in the fuse panel with the fuses pulled, is that right? Then for that wire go to it's destination and find it's ground. Cut the power. Read the resistance between the power wire and ground wire connected to the "destination". ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
...

5. To further narrow down the load,
If there are connectors in the 'Hot' line to anything, example would be the head light switch or dimmer switch, you would disconnect that switch and test again for power moving to ground on BOTH SIDES of the connector break.

You would test for power TO the headlight switch,
You would test for power OUT of the headlight switch,
You would test the line between dimmer switch and dash bright light indicator,
You would test the line going out to bright headlights,
You would test the line going to the dim headlights,

You would test for power at the park light output on the headlight switch,
You would test for power escaping to the dash light output,
You would test for power escaping the tail light output, ect.

You are going to have to chase this down ONE WIRE AT A TIME,
Start at the beginning, the connection to battery power,
Test the starter relay,
Test the main power wire,
Test at every wire that comes off the main power wire at the fuse block,
And everything that connects to those wires, one wire at a time.

Since this is a VOLTAGE leak, you are looking for that voltage where it should NOT be...

With the key switch out of the circuit, testing the fuses should be easy, there shouldn't be hardly ANY of the circuits 'HOT',
The only thing I can think of is headlights and brake lights/turn signals/flashers (and sometimes horn).
These MUST function, and usually have full time power, even if it goes through a fuse first out to these items.

The rest of the circuits should be 'Dead' so don't expect to find much there, especially with fuses pulled, But it's part of the diagnostic process.
If you find power at a fuse that SHOULD NOT be powered up, you found a 'Sneak Circuit'.
Don't discount 'Sneak Circuits', they happen all the time, but a Jeep is so simple there shouldn't be much of a chance of cross wiring going on...
Ok, I'll see what I can do.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 04:27 PM   #57
sabbyATL
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Ok, so there's no voltage on Terminal A, whether or not the starter solenoid is bolted onto the fender. But I don't know if I did this right. I did this by hooking the battery cable to the solenoid and the battery positive terminal. The battery negative terminal was off. I then tested for voltage on terminal A by putting the red probe on terminal A and the black probe on the metal back Eton the solenoid, essentially the top. Doing this there was no voltage with the solenoid on or off the fender.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 04:43 PM   #58
sabbyATL
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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Ok, for #2, I put the solenoid power wire on the battery positive terminal and tested for voltage between the battery negative terminal and the battery negative cable.

It sort of fluctuated between 0.01V and 0.00V.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 04:54 PM   #59
sabbyATL
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 702
For #3, I interpreted that to mean I should hook the battery cable and the solenoid power wire, aka fuse panel wire, to terminal A on the solenoid. Then I should hook the battery cable to the positive terminal. Then I should connect a long wire from the disconnected battery negative cable and go into the fuse panel. Touch a probe to each lead in the fuse panel and the other probe to the wire connected to the battery negative cable. Check for voltage.

That's what I did, but it's probably wrong. I got 0.00V for each lead.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 05:07 PM   #60
sabbyATL
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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So, pretty much after this evening I won't be able to work on this again until a week from today. Tomorrow I leave town for my aunt's funeral and return Friday evening. Then we're going away for the holiday weekend and will return Monday afternoon. I might get a chance to touch on this tomorrow morning and Monday evening...
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