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Unread 08-26-2014, 07:35 AM   #31
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Personally, I would have swapped out the bastardized ignition that Jen has before I would have attempted a new harness install.

But that's just me.

Matt
She installed a new one, but... And it is unhooked right now I believe. We still don't know what provided the power to it with the key off that caused the original meltdown. That is a problem....

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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:02 AM   #32
sabbyATL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
If you can, how about some good, clear pictures of the back side of that fuse block so we can start tracing circuits.
Back side, from a couple of different angles,
And the front side with the same orientation, same side as TOP in both sets of pictures.
I'm at my office right now. But, before I left I made a sort of table with the circuit name, the wire name, and the ohms. Then I color coded where jumpers and brass splitters were in common. I'll upload it in a sec and then I'll transfer it to an excel file or something for easier reading.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:02 AM   #33
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Personally, I would have swapped out the bastardized ignition that Jen has before I would have attempted a new harness install.

But that's just me.

Matt
Ignition unhooked. So that point is moot.

There is nothing wrong with that ignition,
Trigger, Module are both Chrysler which as been working in millions of vehicles for 3 decades, a proven design and no better or worse than any of the first generation factory electronic ignitions.

The breaker points to Chrysler electronic ignition is the same thing I've been doing since the very early 70's in everything from farm tractors to race cars.
It's accurate, throws a good signal, and works with about every factory module and all the aftermarket modules I know about.

The module is pretty much '70's Chrysler Factory which has BILLIONS of miles on it by now in millions of vehicles.
IT's about as powerful as any of the first generation electronic ignitions, Stable, Reliable, has it's limitations just like all the first generation electronic ignitions.
You can also replace that module at any parts store with a '70's Chrysler version for any of the V-8 vehicles, so parts aren't an issue.

Since the distributor itself is a proven Delco design, it's the same advance design as all GM distributors, including the HEI from '74 to '86 and beyond.

There are some very good upgrades for cap/rotor/plug wires when the time comes for a tune up, and since I don't want to confuse the issues that are going on right now, I'm not going to get into that right now...

You shouldn't either... Unless you just insist on wrecking another 'Help Me' thread for a user with issues...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:04 AM   #34
sabbyATL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
She installed a new one, but... And it is unhooked right now I believe. We still don't know what provided the power to it with the key off that caused the original meltdown. That is a problem....

Considering I replaced nearly every single wire in this jeep is it likely the same issue? The only wires I didn't replace were the ones already attached to the tail lights plug, head lights, backup light switch, heater plug, and radio plug.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:14 AM   #35
Mike Romain
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Hmmm... Been thinking. That can be dangerous sometimes, so Jen maybe ignore this so it doesn't confuse, for the rest of you...

Originally the ignition module was getting intermittent power with the key off. When we were "resistance" testing this new system, at one point the fender solenoid showed continuity between the battery and starter posts. When we unhooked all the wires, this went away and the solenoid tested right.

I am wondering if maybe the I terminal wire was somehow hot.

I guess one test would be to see if the I terminal wire shows resistance to ground or to the A terminal solenoid power wire now?
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:18 AM   #36
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabbyATL View Post
I'm at my office right now. But, before I left I made a sort of table with the circuit name, the wire name, and the ohms. Then I color coded where jumpers and brass splitters were in common. I'll upload it in a sec and then I'll transfer it to an excel file or something for easier reading.
That's what I was aiming to do, Blueprint (Schematic Diagram) the fuse block and it's accessory wiring for easier explanations.

With a template we can be clear on the things that need to be checked/addressed without a lot being lost in translation.

Anyone that needs to can copy the base template and show their suggestions.

This will also let us graph what readings are found to keep track of things, since we will all be on the same page...

-----------------

Again, since EVERY system will show some draw, even with everything turned off, I suggest you find the smallest fuse you have,
And install it between the main feed wire and the battery feed cable (at the starter solenoid)...

If a REALLY small fuse (3 amps or less) blows, then you actually have an 'Issue',
If the fuse DOES NOT blow, then this may be system leakage, which anyone that hooks up between negative terminal and cable will find...

All switches leak. It's a fact of life, especially with DC wiring.
We kind of need to determine HOW MUCH leakage is going on,
More than 3 amps will blow the fuse and indicate this is SERIOUS,
While under 3 amps means the leak is MINOR, and you wouldn't necessarily need to worry about melting the harness when it's hooked up.

----------

Anyone that doubts this should go out and pull the negative battery cable,
Do just what you are doing, put a volt meter between cable and battery terminal, you will see 'Leakage' or loads the vehicle normally has all the time you didn't know about...

I don't normally see the leakage you are talking about, Which is full battery voltage...
Usually it's under 12 volts and virtually no amperage, so I'm concerned about this...

--------------------

Since some of your 'Powered' circuits are wired in BLACK, this can cause issues between powered circuits and 'Grounds'...

I'm concerned there is a powered circuit connected to 'Ground' someplace, same as Mike Romain...

I know your system is passing full voltage, but I want to know the AMPERAGE it's drawing.
A memory on a radio will pass full voltage, but virtually no voltage,
And with your fuses pulled and major components disconnected it MUST be something that doesn't pass through a fuse...

I'm trying to see if the flasher unit is full time powered, because they CAN stay closed when they shouldn't be.
Anything with breaker points inside can weld shut, or the thing could be a 'Bad' unit out of the box...

...

Headlights usually have a full time 'HOT' circuit from the fuse block.
You say your headlights have a fuse, but is that fuse before or after the actual headlight switch?

Could power be leaking through the switch BEFORE the headlight fuse?

These are the things I'm trying to track, and knowing which circuits, fused or not, that have been disconnected or 'Opened' will help track down the 'Leak' or 'Load' or 'Short'...
(We don't know which it is yet...Leak, Load or Short)
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:27 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
Hmmm... Been thinking. That can be dangerous sometimes, so Jen maybe ignore this so it doesn't confuse, for the rest of you...

Originally the ignition module was getting intermittent power with the key off. When we were "resistance" testing this new system, at one point the fender solenoid showed continuity between the battery and starter posts. When we unhooked all the wires, this went away and the solenoid tested right.

I am wondering if maybe the I terminal wire was somehow hot.

I guess one test would be to see if the I terminal wire shows resistance to ground or to the A terminal solenoid power wire now?
If I'm getting you correctly,
I already ask about that...

*IF*...
The starter relay is welded shut, or is 'Leaking' voltage to the 'I' terminal,
That would sure as hell back feed the ignition switch, and the fuse block.

It would also be easy to test.
Disconnect the starter relay from battery,
Test for resistance between 'I' and which terminal she has been using for battery.

-----------

Now, the 'Starter Cable' terminal,
And the 'Battery Cable' terminal SHOULD NOT be connected to the 'Ignition' terminal when the relay is at rest.

The 'Factory' version doesn't do this.

*BUT*...
The starter relay is a 'Replacement',
And *IF* the maker had 'Shorted' one of the large terminals to the 'I' (Ignition) terminal internally, then with the battery connected to what should *Normally* be the starter side of the relay,
That would backfeed/power up the ignition switch/ignition circuit when it should be 'Cold'...

I had a HUGE time tracing this one time in a Ford racecar.
The 'Starter' lug, and the 'Ignition' terminal were bonded internally...
The guy had put the battery cable on what was normally the 'Starer Cable Lug', so when he started, he couldn't shut the vehicle off with the key switch...
And the battery went dead since the ignition was drawing full current full time...

Flip large cables on the starter relay and the issue went away...
But I've not seen that again since the one time.

------

This would be REALLY easy to test for,
Just look for voltage at the 'I' terminal on the starter relay...

And if you suspect a leak from battery to 'S' circuit, same thing, look for voltage at the 'S' terminal.

Since everything is unhooked/powered down, there shouldn't be ANY voltage at either...

------

Another way to verify the relay would be to unbolt it from the fender.
This will break the 'Ground' circuit, and voltage at the battery 'Negative' should drop if the relay is bad.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:29 AM   #38
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Too many cooks. I'll bow out.

My suggestion to the rest... Find ONE plan and take it to the end before you have her chasing other geese.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:39 AM   #39
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post

If I'm getting you correctly,
I already ask about that...

*IF*...
The starter relay is welded shut, or is 'Leaking' voltage to the 'I' terminal,
That would sure as hell back feed the ignition switch, and the fuse block.

It would also be easy to test.
Disconnect the starter relay from battery,
Test for resistance between 'I' and which terminal she has been using for battery.

-----------

Now, the 'Starter Cable' terminal,
And the 'Battery Cable' terminal SHOULD NOT be connected to the 'Ignition' terminal when the relay is at rest.

The 'Factory' version doesn't do this.

*BUT*...
The starter relay is a 'Replacement',
And *IF* the maker had 'Shorted' one of the large terminals to the 'I' (Ignition) terminal internally, then with the battery connected to what should *Normally* be the starter side of the relay,
That would backfeed/power up the ignition switch/ignition circuit when it should be 'Cold'...

I had a HUGE time tracing this one time in a Ford racecar.
The 'Starter' lug, and the 'Ignition' terminal were bonded internally...
The guy had put the battery cable on what was normally the 'Starer Cable Lug', so when he started, he couldn't shut the vehicle off with the key switch...
And the battery went dead since the ignition was drawing full current full time...

Flip large cables on the starter relay and the issue went away...
But I've not seen that again since the one time.
When we took the cables all off the solenoid, it tested OK. Both power lugs showed no resistance to ground.

Didn't check from the I terminal to the starter terminal though. Or the S terminal to the ground.

And since then we have only used the A or battery side to hook the fuse panel feed to the battery cable so it hasn't been in the circuit.

She has a test light. It shows a bright light between the cable and post, she should keep using that because as you say, 12 volts there is real misleading. My meter will check up to 10 amps across this connection, don't think hers does. 3a fuse across this connection wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:41 AM   #40
Mike Romain
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Originally Posted by WindKnot View Post
Too many cooks. I'll bow out.

My suggestion to the rest... Find ONE plan and take it to the end before you have her chasing other geese.
You are correct, one test at a time. It gets into information overload zone Way too fast!
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:42 AM   #41
sabbyATL
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Wait! I might've found it!

So, everything that's somehow connected to the incoming solenoid power cable is showing about 0.3 - 0.4 ohms.

However, in Row 5 of the panel, in the Fuel Pump circuit, the Choke Power & Fuel Pump wires, which are spliced together, show 13.3 ohms.

I *think* this is by itself...not in a brass plate/splitter. I'll double check when I get home.

To read this table:
Row - the row from top to bottom of the panel
Circuit - the name of the circuit on the front of the panel
Wire - the name of the wire coming from the circuit
Ohms - the resistance reading of the wire, with the other probe on a wire connected to the battery cable negative.
Colors - wires (not necessarily circuits) connected by jumpers and brass plates/splitters will have the same color

Note: There is a separate little connector that's jumped to by the jumper on the horn circuit. Also, the silver flashers on the corners are connected via jumpers to the AC/Heat circuit and the Hazard circuit...or at least the jumpers go from those circuits to right behind those silver flashers. I tried to denote these three idiosyncrasies using color coding.
fuse-panel-layout.png

fuse-panel-front.gif

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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:43 AM   #42
sabbyATL
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Originally Posted by WindKnot View Post
Too many cooks. I'll bow out.

My suggestion to the rest... Find ONE plan and take it to the end before you have her chasing other geese.
Don't leave! I took your suggestion to test the resistance of the wires. I did it before work this morning.
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:45 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindKnot View Post
Too many cooks. I'll bow out.

My suggestion to the rest... Find ONE plan and take it to the end before you have her chasing other geese.
That's why I suggested a Schematic/Diagram, so we can all be on the same page about what's unhooked, what's been tested, and what tests were done.

I also suggested/suggest VERIFYING the starter relay...
Since it's been REPLACED with a discount store version and hasn't be VERIFIED as working 'Correctly'...
Since this is the FIRST CONNECTION in the install, it should be the FIRST THING TESTED...

With 'I' wire removed from it, it's not likely it's backfeeding power through the ignition circuit,
But an internal 'Short' could be happening since it's hooked to power, and virtually everything else is unhooked...

I've already ask for this,
But if the feed wire to the fuse block is DISCONNECTED,
And the battery cable is still hooked to the relay, and the 'Drain' persists,
The ONLY thing it could be is the NEW/REPLACED starter relay.

VERIFY EVERYTHING,
Start at #1 and VERIFY, move to #2 and VERIFY, ect.
Jumping around doesn't solve anything, particularly if there is more than one 'Issue' causing the readings...

There are some guys here that *Think* they can 'Guess' what the issue is...
But that's just not the case and you can overlook things you wouldn't think about if you jump around...

VERIFY, VERIFY, VERIFY...
Record your testing,
If everything is 'OK' then you have a RECORD of what is VERIFIED working when you review things...

Lazy guys won't do this, neither will stupid ones...
If you don't have good testing procedures, and record those findings, then you didn't do the test, it doesn't exist...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 08:47 AM   #44
JeepHammer
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Choke would sure show a serious load!
If it's not routed through a pressure switch, or the ignition switch, it's probably full time 'Hot'...
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Unread 08-26-2014, 09:21 AM   #45
sabbyATL
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Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Choke would sure show a serious load!
If it's not routed through a pressure switch, or the ignition switch, it's probably full time 'Hot'...
Do you mean the 13.3 is expected and normal?

So, when I get home today I will do this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
It would also be easy to test.
Disconnect the starter relay from battery,
Test for resistance between 'I' and which terminal she has been using for battery.
and report back.
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