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Need some T176 help Please

7K views 87 replies 12 participants last post by  PFT 
#1 ·
Good afternoon, I am wondering if anyone else has run into this problem before. I'm at the point of my project where I mated the transmission and bell housing to the motor. I purchased this transmission from a bankruptcy (tranny shop) and it was completely rebuilt but never installed or run.
I had the transmission in neutral when I mated it to the motor, put the cover on and installed the shift lever. This is where things get interesting (and I did this three times);
Transmission in neutral
Cover in neutral
Installed cover and shift lever
Cycled through gears 1,2,3,4
Attempted to put in reverse and transmission locks up, like it is "stuck" between gears
Pull the cover off and see the reverse fork way in front of the rear fork (3-4 fork?)

At this point I really have to wiggle around to get the reverse fork back in the housing as to get the cover back off. I appologize for not getting a good picture of the reverse fork but I was very frustrated at that point.
I also do not yet know how to put picture within the text of my post, but I hopw to upload them in order of the process.
Thanks for looking and for any advise you may have
 

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#2 ·
I would check to see if your reverse sliding gear is in the correct position when you put the cover on. It can slide back and forth. Wondering if the fork is not engaging the gear right. You can move the reverse sliding gear with a screwdriver
 
#3 ·
At first read it sounds like your shift fork alignment is off somehow. Do you have a rebuild manual for the trans? It will go thru disassembly/reassembly of the trans cover/shift forks. Also check to make sure the reverse gear is installed properly. If it's on the shaft backwards it will cause the trans to lock up.
I like to test the trans on the bench with the cover and shifter installed. That way I can put the trans in each gear and hand-rotate the input shaft to ensure the output shaft does what it's supposed to for each gear. If that all looks good I'll remove the shifter and install the trans with the cover still on.
 
#5 ·
I like to test the trans on the bench with the cover and shifter installed. That way I can put the trans in each gear and hand-rotate the input shaft to ensure the output shaft does what it's supposed to for each gear. If that all looks good I'll remove the shifter and install the trans with the cover still on.
Yes, that probably would have been the smart thing to do, but I got ahead of myself.
I have looked at many different photos of a T176 cover, and mine sure looks correct. But on the other hand it does not operate properly. It will however shift through gears 1-4 perfectly and always "return" to neutral.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the response,
I would check to see if your reverse sliding gear is in the correct position when you put the cover on. It can slide back and forth. Wondering if the fork is not engaging the gear right. You can move the reverse sliding gear with a screwdriver
I assume the reverse sliding gear is in the lower left part of the case? If that is true, I did align that gear with the reverse fork when putting the cover on. After cycling through all the gears and it getting jammed up while trying to go into reverse, the reverse fork was ahead in the case (picture above), but that sliding gear remained in its original position in the rear of the case.
 
#9 ·
Reverse gear should look like this:



I think your shift rails look good it they are tight.


However the end of the shift lever has been known to wear and putting the tranny into reverse may allow one of the other gears to move at the same time.
Or the tranny shop may of not put the lockouts in properly that is suppose to keep the forks from moving at the same time.

Next time it locks up. Remove the lever and look at the gates.


only the top gate should have moved IF the center one has moved also, its a clue you have problems with your shifter lever or worn gates. or lockouts
 
#12 ·
I had a similar problem with a rebuilt T176. It was rebuilt a year or so B4 I got it and sat on a shelf. I installed it in my 83' and it wouldn't go into reverse. Pulled the top cover back off and couldn't move the reverse gear with a big screw driver. The gear was stuck to the shaft. I squirted a mix of ATF and Acetone on the gear/shaft and after a couple days it freed up.
 
#13 ·
Thanks, that is interesting because this particular transmission also sat in the shop (after rebuild) for a year or so. Although the reverse gear does move freely on mine.

Hopefully I can get some time tomorrow to open it up and take another look, and post a couple pictures of the reverse fork to make sure that looks OK.

Thanks for all the help!!
 
#14 ·
On kind of a side note regarding this transmission, in the picture below you can see that I put a C-clamp on the shift lever pins. I did this because as I would use the shift lever from side to side they would push out the side of the tower.
Anyone else experience this? What might remedy this issue?
 

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#15 ·
I just installed mine last week. Basically lined up the groove on the reverse idler with the groove on the shift ring on the upper shaft, everything in neutral. Made sure shift cover was all in neutral, that made shift arms line up, too. Pretty much dropped right in, and worked fine. Is it possible that the shift fork is going in in front of the idler gear, rather than going in the slot?

Good luck-
 
#19 ·
Got the cover back off this morning, and took some pics. At this point I am thinking there is something wrong with the reverse fork, reason being that the fork is "in front" of the reverse sliding gear and I am certain that the fork was in the proper location on the gear. Thoughts?
John suggested taking a pic of the gates prior to removing the cover, that pic is below. Let me know if you see anything way out of whack.
A sincere thanks for your help
 

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#20 ·
Well looking at this picture, the forks are in the Reverse location.


So does the shifter lever move out of reverse location and become stuck?

Looks like the 1-2 gate (Center gate) is worn on one side and that might allow the shift lever to move into the neutral position without pulling the reverse gate (or fork) back to the neutral position. This will completely lock up the shifter mechanism since the interlocks still assumes it's in reverse.

Look at the picture below, If the lever can rotate, and is worn, there might just be enough room for the lever to slip into the neutral position without it coming out of reverse.

By the way, those pins looked drilled, you could run some safety wire through the hole to kep them in place also.
 

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#21 ·
Put the top back on and try checking the gears only this time after going into reverse, Hold the lever all the way to the left when pulling back and see it the reverse pops back into neutral and you can shift through 1-2-3-4.

If not, without removing the top, move the reverse gate to neutral with a screw driver and put the lever back in and try shifting 1-2-3-4. It will take a some force to overcome the interlocks. You just don't notice it with the mechanical advantage the shift lever gives you.
If the reverse gate moves into position, then it's not the reverse fork that's your problem.

Also post a picture of the end of shift lever



This guy has similar problems
http://wayalife.com/showthread.php?11268-T176-Replacement-Shift-Fork-Too-Big

You probably don't realize you are stuck in reverse because you can't move the jeep yet.
 
#22 ·
John,
Thanks for the reply.
When I put the top on, with everything in neutral, I can shift through all the forward gears and always get it back into neutral. When I then attempt to shift into reverse the shift lever will become lodged or stuck in that position.
Once it becomes stuck in this position I can no longer manipulate the shift lever in any direction.
Then when I lift the cover I see the reverse fork way forward in the case and can not get the cover off because the reverse fork will not clear the opening.
Then I would use a large screwdriver to "push" and wiggle the reverse fork to the rear of the case to get the cover off.
If I understand correctly you said the gates in this photo show the reverse position?
Is the reverse fork in the second picture in the correct reverse position?
I will try your most recent recommendation and post a picture of the shift lever soon.
Thanks!!
 

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#23 ·
A couple photos of the shift lever (was brand new when I started this adventure).

[quotePut the top back on and try checking the gears only this time after going into reverse, Hold the lever all the way to the left when pulling back and see it the reverse pops back into neutral and you can shift through 1-2-3-4.][/quote]

John, I also tried this and it resulted in the same out come as before, shift lever locked up and reverse fork forward in the case.
Thanks much
 

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#24 ·
That's how your new one looks just AFTER you started?
Looks pretty beat.

This is going to be tougher but mount the top to something, Couple of 1X3 boards or something so the forks clear but is firmly attached so it doesn't move.

Install the shift lever and try putting it in reverse and see if it jams up. There may be something that is holding it back in the levers or gates and not in the tranny at all. If the tranny shop replaced some o the forks, some of the replacement ones may be hanging up on each other.



http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/t176-replacement-shift-fork-too-big-1621697/

Also, did you use the shoulder bolts when attaching the top to the case? there are two of them that centers the top correctly.
 
#25 ·
Jackler, the first pic of your shift lever looks like it's bent at the lower end compared to the pic John posted showing 2 side by side. Maybe it's just the angle of the pic & maybe it's the way it's supposed to be. It's been too long since i've had mine out to remember what it's supposed to look like. I do agree with John that your shift lever looks pretty used for a new one.
 
#26 ·
Yes, pretty beat up indeed. That is the issue with the shift lever getting stuck in the reverse position

Putting just the cover back together and shifting through the gears was my next step, I will try to get it done tonight.

Lastly, in this photo can you tell if the reverse fork is in the proper position for reverse? Is it concerning that at the time this photo was taken the reverse slider gear was still in the rear of the case? I guess what I am asking is if the reverse fork is in the correct position, wouldn't the slider gear be with it?

Thanks
 

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#28 ·
No the reverse gear slides easy. I'm also wondering if your lugs are worn allowing the end of your shifter to come and get kinda wedged. What you're looking in that last picture are the lugs. When I had my rebuild mine were pretty worn
 
#30 ·
This is definitely one of those "had I known then....." moments, the more I learn about the workings of this transmission, the less I think the top cover components were ever "rebuilt". So, I think I need to start at the top and work my way down.
I attached the cover on a solid surface, with plenty of room for the forks to travel along the rails and began cycling through the gears.
1 and 2 went well, but when I attempted to go to 3 the shift lever "twisted" within the tower maybe 20 degrees.
My best guess(s) are;
The shift lever itself being chewed up by my prior failed attempts (learning curve)
The lugs (mentioned above) being worn
The shift lever pins not holding
Some combination of the above
Some symptom I have not thought of

I will start with this photo, does this look correct? It sure seems like the shift lever pins are almost to short?
 

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#33 ·
Thanks to all of you for your help with this matter, it is greatly appreciated!!
I spent some time playing around with the cover this morning, and as I mentioned yesterday I was having difficulty with the shift lever staying "seated" in the gate opening. Same result today, it seemed as though the lower end of the shift lever would slip up and over the edge of the gate.
Good news is I have become very good at cycling through the gears with a large screwdriver. To attempt to eliminate other concerns, I installed the cover back onto the transmission case and was successfully able to cycle through all forward and reverse gears using the large screwdriver.
So, that leads me to believe that my problem is in the relationship between the lower end of the shift lever and the upper end of the shift forks.
Looking at the attached diagram I was thinking I would order and replace the following;
#17-1-2 shift fork
#19-3-4 shift lug
#22-reverse shift fork
Please point out any defect in my thought process, or other parts that may be needed.
Thanks
 

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#35 ·
Yes, I have read some of these other threads regarding aftermarket parts for this transmission being difficult.

I am seeing indications of wear and nicking, particularly where the shift lever meets the brass

I do have a rebuild manual for the cover, but it will be a learning process I am sure. Even now, as much as I have learned about this transmission in the last 2 days, I still am not 100% what to call each part. It is a good thing I know how to use the search function on this site!!:laugh:
Thanks for the reply
 
#37 ·
You do have parts 5,6 and 8 right?

The new #5 parts are thinner and sometimes the lower tangs to bend down. This allows the shifter lever to rise up.
Yes, I have those parts, they were new in the beginning. A liitle scratched from install/removal many times, but nothing is bent.

I do have a question on part #6, the spring cap. Mine looks like the attached photo and has a "notch" in the round opening. I assume that serves a purpose?
Edit.. I think it goes the reverse side??
Thanks for the reply
 

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