Need some Starter / Starter wiring help please! - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep CJ Forum > Need some Starter / Starter wiring help please!

Ruffstuff Axle Simple Swap Kit!ROCK BOTTOM prices on LIFT KITS at Rockridge4wd!! WANT TO Introducing MONSTALINER™ UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed Line

Reply
Unread 09-07-2009, 02:37 PM   #1
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
Need some Starter / Starter wiring help please!

Looking at my starter selenoid (it's new) I have all my hot wires on the "s" side terminal. I have my starter wire on the "i" side of my post. I have the jeep wiring harness starter/ignition wire on the top "S" post.

Here is my issue. When I start it, the starter has a hard time turning it over. My battery is reading 11 volts. I have looked at diagrams with all the hot wires on the "i" side of the terminal post and the starter wire on the "s" terminal post does anyone think that is a issue?

Also I looked all over my starter and it only has one wire going to it. It's the wire that goes from the starter selenoid. From the diagrams I have seen on other starters I see a wire going from the starter selenoid and then also a wire going from the negitive battery terminal (which my doesn't have). Are there such things as one wire starters like mine?

And as a side note my starter will some times keep engaging even when the engine is off and I have to pull the hot post off the battery. This is random...

Any help would be most appreciated...

SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 04:05 PM   #2
ACAD_Cowboy
Registered User
1980 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Accord NY
Posts: 333
Sounds like beefing up your engine grounds would be the best place to start. Running a lead from battery - to one of the mounting bolts for the starter and including an internal/external star washer will ensure maximum flow through the starter.

The Motorcraft type starter is designed to be functional with only a single + lead with grounding through the starter body. This design works okay but can work better by adding a - lead of equal or greater gauge than the +.

If your starter has phantom run on issues I would look at the solenoid as it is the only thing that switches + power to the starter via a key on power source. If you have it wired up so + can sneak back to the S terminal, an internal fault will engage the starter.
__________________
-= Francis =-

[SIZE="1"][I][SIZE="2"]These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended; They stood, and earth's foundations stay; What God abandoned, these defended, And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman[/SIZE][/I][/SIZE]
ACAD_Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 04:15 PM   #3
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
I will try to ground it and redo the starter selenoid configuration to the diagram I mention above. The starter selenoid is brand new...
SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 04:25 PM   #4
ACAD_Cowboy
Registered User
1980 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Accord NY
Posts: 333
If you are fairly sure the solenoid is good then you have a leak somewhere in the + side, sneaking power to the stud. Try testing them with a DVOM/MM looking for flow from the S terminal to the various wires connect to it in a key off situation. One of them may have a transient.
__________________
-= Francis =-

[SIZE="1"][I][SIZE="2"]These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended; They stood, and earth's foundations stay; What God abandoned, these defended, And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman[/SIZE][/I][/SIZE]
ACAD_Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 04:36 PM   #5
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
well I bought 2 new starter selenoids, one was the wrong one (for an auto), and the one I have now. With the selenoid off I did the ohms between the selenoid terminals and found the wrong one (for the auto tranny) was showing numbers while the new one was not. I think switching the wiring side up to the diagram and grounding the starter off some of the mounting bolts may help. I may just switch the wiring up first and see if I don't have to mess with the starter because it has to be grounded in some capacity by being bolted to the metal housing/tranny cover it is attached too.
SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 05:23 PM   #6
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
Just re-wired everything hot on the "I" side of the terminal and the starter wire on the "s" side post terminal. It seem to work ok. It didn't seem to keep trying to start after the key was off so I guess that is good.

I charged my battery and it read 12 volts. The starter was turning the engine soo slow that I know that has something to do with it not starting. It almost is like it is in a bind and I have to tap the key a couple of times and it will start turning the engine but very slow. Also I have tried to jump it with the battery charger and that didn't do anything either. Do you think I need a new starter? I have always had them lock up and you hit them with a hammer and then they work again and that is your sign that you need a new one, I have never had one turn soo slow...is that a starter symptom too?
SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 05:50 PM   #7
ACAD_Cowboy
Registered User
1980 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Accord NY
Posts: 333
Slow revolutions are a sign of high internal resistance which is a symptom of the starter getting ready to die. You can try a quick strip & clean with electronics cleaner and see if it helps, often times between carbon fouling from brush wear and ingested oil and water they can be pretty ugly inside.
__________________
-= Francis =-

[SIZE="1"][I][SIZE="2"]These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended; They stood, and earth's foundations stay; What God abandoned, these defended, And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman[/SIZE][/I][/SIZE]
ACAD_Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 06:03 PM   #8
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
Ok I am going to take off the starter and hope I can find some issues in it...I don't mind buying a new one, but the parts store can't test my old one to determine if it is bad or not so I hope that the starter is the issue and nothing else...
SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 07:11 PM   #9
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
pulled the starter. it said Ultima 03-0203 on one side and the other side said (12-99, rev 00) and had a sku number on it. The gear area looked new but that is not to say it is messed up inside. It also has a ford emblem stamped on the gear side. It really doesn't look bad at all but I guess the insides will tell...
SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-07-2009, 09:08 PM   #10
ACAD_Cowboy
Registered User
1980 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Accord NY
Posts: 333
The parts store should be able to bench test it and watch the amps gauge. Excessive draw will show up real quickly since it is not trying to turn the engine over. If you have never take a starter apart I would recommend a bench testing first as getting it put back together can be tedious with the brushes.

Judging the from the markings it is a re-manufactured unit. The ford stamp is typical as they are by and large a motorcraft product. Based on the markings it looks like it may have been minted on July 22 2003 based on a build package dating from December of 1999 that has had no further revisions. 5 years on a starter is not bad, not great but understandable given the electrical nightmare jeeps can be.
__________________
-= Francis =-

[SIZE="1"][I][SIZE="2"]These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended; They stood, and earth's foundations stay; What God abandoned, these defended, And saved the sum of things for pay.

A.E. Housman[/SIZE][/I][/SIZE]
ACAD_Cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-08-2009, 06:22 AM   #11
Mike Romain
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Off the Grid in Chester Grant, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 13,961
A bad connection on the positive battery cable or a low battery can cause your symptoms. The low power that then gets to the solenoid can allow it to arc and keep the starter cranking after the key is released.

The starter ground is the engine block, a bad connection on that can also cause your symptoms. They get bad where they bolt to the block.

I would clean all the battery cable ends before replacing the starter unless the starter does check out bad. Starters can also just get full of mud so the brushes stick, opening them up and using a can of WD40 to clean them out can do wonders sometimes. If the brushes are worn, a new set is less that $15.00 usually.
__________________
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
Mike Romain is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-08-2009, 12:00 PM   #12
John Strenk
Moderator
 
John Strenk's Avatar
1976 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shalersville Ohio
Posts: 13,230
I've also seen corroded Battery cables do the same thing. They won't let enough current to pass to turn the motor over faster. A cable could look pretty on the outside and be a mess on the inside.

If you want to go through all the bother you can check for voltage drops across each connection and cable. Any Voltage drop greater than 0.5 volts is a bad connection. Note this is NOT how much a battery voltage drops during cranking, this is how much the voltage drops at each section of the circuit. A quick Check is to measure the voltage at the battery when cranking and then measure the voltage at the Starter when you are checking. Any thing more than about 1.5 volt difference could be signs of a poor contact.

I actually don't bother checking and Just replace the cables every couple of years because plowing puts such a load on the cables and the salty conditions are just terrible.
John Strenk is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-09-2009, 12:20 AM   #13
SparkyCJ7
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South!
Posts: 123
well I had the starter checked and it checked fine.
I talked awhile about what the issue was. They asked me about my cold cranking amps and I think it was around 450 or 500, they thought that maybe my problem because of a mod-ed engine needs more cold cranking amps.

Well I put the starter back on and got my truck battery out that has 875 amps and 700 cold cranking amps. Also changed out the starter wires. The engine still was slowly turning but turned a little faster. I was able to get one start and then it died as I am still playing with timing. It just keep slowing down until the battery was not able to turn it almost.

The stupid thing is that jeep will start without the clutch pushed in as it should but I was pushing up and down on the clutch and it kind of helped. But I started smelling the clutch burning, which it should not do that at all. The jeep is in neutral and doesn't move when I try to start it.

One thing is that the clutch only pushes in about 3.5 inches and I knew that I needed to adjust it but it was drivable with this when I got it up in the garage.

Another thing is that the spacer plate between the engine and the manual tranny (3 speed) was not installed. Plus it does not have the dust cover on it. I wonder if something is getting in a bind in the drivetran area because of the lack of the spacer plate thus causing the engine to turn slow.

I have no idea...I am going to bump this to a new thread, I need everyone's input for this one...
SparkyCJ7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-09-2009, 06:40 AM   #14
Mike Romain
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Off the Grid in Chester Grant, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 13,961
If the tranny nose piece is shoved too far into the pilot bushing, it can bind up I think. The pilot bushing also should have a large oil wick behind it to keep things lubed up.
__________________
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
Mike Romain is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 09-09-2009, 07:27 AM   #15
jfwireless
Registered User
1976 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post

If you want to go through all the bother you can check for voltage drops across each connection and cable. Any Voltage drop greater than 0.5 volts is a bad connection. Note this is NOT how much a battery voltage drops during cranking, this is how much the voltage drops at each section of the circuit. A quick Check is to measure the voltage at the battery when cranking and then measure the voltage at the Starter when you are checking. Any thing more than about 1.5 volt difference could be signs of a poor contact.
X2, this is exactly what I do to check. Voltage drops work the best for me. Also make sure you test the voltage drop from the negative battery terminal to the starter case ground to check your negative connection voltage drop, if you are OK here the dedicated ground lead will not solve your problem, although this is a sound practice just in case. Beefing up your ground system on an old CJ is a wise investment. Make sure you check from the battery terminal itself, not from the clamp connector on the end of the battery leads, this battery post connection is one of the first things I check when I encounter a no start engine. I typically turn on the high beam headlights and measure the voltage drop across each battery terminal connection. If there is a problem here it will show up with the high beam headlights, my dad showed me that trick a long long time ago.

When checking for voltage drops like this I always use an older analog meter with a real pointer, digital meters can be a pain when looking at voltage drops sometimes.

The only sure check for a starter is to put a load on it and see how much current it draws relative to the power output of the starter at design RPM.

You can also check for a dragging engine by checking the current draw of a known good starter while attempting to turn over the engine. You do need a very large DC ampmeter to be able to make this check.

Jim
jfwireless is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.