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Introducing MONSTALINER™ UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed LineThe ULTIMATE "Selectable" Locker System! BroughFS: 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler "HALO" Angel Eye Kit

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Unread 11-03-2009, 06:49 AM   #16
74CJMatlock
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my-jeep-earl View Post
I've had OX lockers, front and rear, in for eight years now and haven't had a problem with the cables yet.
Same here. I bought my OX about as soon as they came out, and have had zero problems with the cable (and boy have I abused the underside of my Jeep). A couple of observations:

1. If you're going to consider ARB, go ahead and do both axles the same. Part of the big headache and investment in an ARB is the compressor. Once you have that rigged up, you might as well put an ARB in both axles.

2. I'd seriously think about regearing before putting in a locker. You didn't specify which axles you had. I'm assuming a 30 front and either a 44 or 20 rear. Typically, the more we modify, the more we want to modify. You're running pretty high gears, though you have a good drivetrain to handle them. However, all axles have a "carrier break" between certain gear ratios, meaning that you have to move from one size carrier to another. For lockers in which the carrier is replaced, that means that a locker that you bought for one size gear will not necessarily work if you regear. For instance, the break for your Dana 30 is just between 3.54 and 3.73, meaning that a locker which you buy for your 3.31s will only work up to 3.54s. If you ever want gears lower (numerically higher) than that, you'll need a new locker (you may be able to reuse some parts, depending upon what you buy). Do some research regarding what you think you're going to want in the future before sinking a bunch of money into something that you're not going to be able to use later.

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Unread 11-03-2009, 07:09 AM   #17
78treehugger
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Doing the front wouldn't be a bad idea especially if you are doing mild trails. I wheeled withan Aussie in te front in my TJ and my last CJ. Open in the rear in both and it was great especially for mild trails.
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Unread 11-03-2009, 07:23 AM   #18
Instigator0812
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If you spend more time on pavement I would definitely look at a selectable locker, they're not cheap but definitely worth it. I have heard mixed reviews about the ox as far as the cable issues. ARB is a solid locker, but as someone also mentioned, a compressor and tank setup is required. Have you looked into electronic "lockers" like an eaton or possibly even a limited slip set up if you do not wheel it very hard?
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Unread 11-04-2009, 02:31 PM   #19
CJhollic
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I guess I am the only one that is going to reccomend a lunchbox locker. I am running LockRites front and rear. I use it as a DD and dont even know they are there. They can be installed in a couple of hours with no hassles. I keep up with the big boys on the trail that have ARB/Ox/Detroit lockers. The LockRites behave very well on pavement.

The really nice part? 300 bucks a piece.
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Unread 11-04-2009, 05:24 PM   #20
JeepHammer
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3.31:1 gears and 33" tires will make for that vehicle being one slow pig on the highway, and it's not really advantageous for off road either.

Lockers (lunch box lockers) in the front is no big deal if you are going to keep the Dana 30 front axle.
The lunch box lockers can be unlocked by using hub lockouts, and a transfer case that has 2 wheel drive.
And with the 'Lunch Box' type lockers, you don't have to spend money setting up the ring and pinion gears again.
Very easy to install the next time you tear down for wheel bearings, housing seals, ect. it takes about an extra 30-45 minutes and $200-$250 to install the 'Lunch Box' lockers.

I wouldn't put much more money into a Dana 30 differential, they are just too weak at the ring and pinion, axles, U joints, ect to spend a ton of money on.
------------------------------

A full time locker in the rear of ANYTHING street driven is a bad idea because they cause steering/control problems and make all kinds of strange noises, twist axles, ect.

If you are going to drive the vehicle on 'Hard Pack', like pavement,
You are MUCH better off with a 'Selectable Locker' you can turn 'On & Off' rather than a full time locker...

OR,
You can go with a gear driven (gears instead of clutch packs) 'Limited Slip Differential', like a Detroit 'TrueTrac'.
I have a True Trac in the back of my little CJ-5 which sees about 50/50 pavement/county roads and off road, and I can't tell it from a locker in the rear,
But it doesn't do ANY of the stupid things a full time locker does.

The 'selectable' lockers are very nice to have, very strong, and if you go with something like an OX with a cable switch, then you don't have to worry about electric or air lines keeping you from locking the differential in...

Full Size lockers are EXPENSIVE to purchase, usually $600 to over $1,000 each,
And they are EXPENSIVE to install, around $250-$300 to have the ring and pinion gears set back up on the new locker housing...
And some are quite problematic if you start pulling loose wiring or air lines, get water in them, ect.

I've not had a minute of problem with the TrueTrac (Gear Drive) limited slip differential, and I believe that is what is going in the front when I change front axles.


Right now, with Aussie Lunch Box in the front factory D-30 carrier,
And a True Trac in the rear factory D-44 axle,
I go about everywhere anyone else does, and it does exceptionally well in soft sand & mud where other guys get stuck A LOT!
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Unread 11-04-2009, 06:18 PM   #21
CJman77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
3.31:1 gears and 33" tires will make for that vehicle being one slow pig on the highway, and it's not really advantageous for off road either.

Lockers (lunch box lockers) in the front is no big deal if you are going to keep the Dana 30 front axle.
The lunch box lockers can be unlocked by using hub lockouts, and a transfer case that has 2 wheel drive.
And with the 'Lunch Box' type lockers, you don't have to spend money setting up the ring and pinion gears again.
Very easy to install the next time you tear down for wheel bearings, housing seals, ect. it takes about an extra 30-45 minutes and $200-$250 to install the 'Lunch Box' lockers.

I wouldn't put much more money into a Dana 30 differential, they are just too weak at the ring and pinion, axles, U joints, ect to spend a ton of money on.
------------------------------

A full time locker in the rear of ANYTHING street driven is a bad idea because they cause steering/control problems and make all kinds of strange noises, twist axles, ect.

If you are going to drive the vehicle on 'Hard Pack', like pavement,
You are MUCH better off with a 'Selectable Locker' you can turn 'On & Off' rather than a full time locker...

OR,
You can go with a gear driven (gears instead of clutch packs) 'Limited Slip Differential', like a Detroit 'TrueTrac'.
I have a True Trac in the back of my little CJ-5 which sees about 50/50 pavement/county roads and off road, and I can't tell it from a locker in the rear,
But it doesn't do ANY of the stupid things a full time locker does.

The 'selectable' lockers are very nice to have, very strong, and if you go with something like an OX with a cable switch, then you don't have to worry about electric or air lines keeping you from locking the differential in...

Full Size lockers are EXPENSIVE to purchase, usually $600 to over $1,000 each,
And they are EXPENSIVE to install, around $250-$300 to have the ring and pinion gears set back up on the new locker housing...
And some are quite problematic if you start pulling loose wiring or air lines, get water in them, ect.

I've not had a minute of problem with the TrueTrac (Gear Drive) limited slip differential, and I believe that is what is going in the front when I change front axles.


Right now, with Aussie Lunch Box in the front factory D-30 carrier,
And a True Trac in the rear factory D-44 axle,
I go about everywhere anyone else does, and it does exceptionally well in soft sand & mud where other guys get stuck A LOT!

One slow pig? Really? I will be turning 2500 rpm at 75? I would think with all the sm465's low gearing it would compensate adequately. Please enlighten me i need to figure this stuff out now while its all torn down!
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Unread 11-04-2009, 06:34 PM   #22
wizim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJman77 View Post
Okay another thought.....Since I dont offroad very much at all. Would it make any sense to just throw in a locker in the front and forgo the rear? Or would that just me stupid? Sorry I dont know all the precarious situations a locker will help in.
im doing my front inner seals and while its apart im doing an aussie locker. when will i do the rear? when something breaks and it has to come apart. hopefully that will be never.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 02:47 AM   #23
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJman77 View Post
One slow pig? Really? I will be turning 2500 rpm at 75? I would think with all the sm465's low gearing it would compensate adequately. Please enlighten me i need to figure this stuff out now while its all torn down!
That's pretty good!
Like low first gear is going to help you at highway speeds when you are in 1:1 high gear?

Taller tires lowers you gear reduction at the crankshaft,
expect your engine to turn SLOWER in high gear,
And therefore you will have 'Issues' with highway 'Power' you feel when you try and accelerate at highway speeds.

Most of the 'No Power' and 'Spark Knock' posts are because someone slapped on big tires and didn't increase gear ratio to compensate...
Not to mention the speedo is going to be WAY off.

Off road builds are naturally better off with larger tires, deeper gear sets, and heavy duty axles...
That keeps the engine RPM, (and Torque Band) where it's supposed to be,
Doesn't load the drive line through the transmission/transfer case as much,
And you can strengthen the axles easily to compensate for the added gear reduction at the differential....

Instead of laboring the engine at lower RPM,
Stressing the transmission, transfer, drive shafts with tall gears and taller tires.

Guys that are jumping off into mud pits at full throttle don't stress the crap out of the drive line like someone trying to crawl up a hill or finesse an obstacle at low speed, usually just off idle,
So usually gaining gear reduction at the differential for every 2" in tire size is a good thing...

If you want to go 75 down the highway, then why drive a CJ?

If you want to go 1-2 MPH and walk up hills/trails at just off idle, no matter how steep, then get deeper gears or keep the tire sizes reasonable.

I'm running 4.10:1 with 33" tires and I'm capable of 65 MPH if I need it, but it's not an 'Interstate Cruiser',
And since it's a CJ, it's certainly not SAFE at 65 or 75 MPH!

It does, however, go very well down local highways, country roads, and gets me around in the mud, muck, greasy trails like a champ...
That's why I drive it so much in the summer!
It gets around the farm and river bottom land VERY WELL.
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Unread 11-05-2009, 07:23 AM   #24
CJman77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
That's pretty good!
Like low first gear is going to help you at highway speeds when you are in 1:1 high gear?

Taller tires lowers you gear reduction at the crankshaft,
expect your engine to turn SLOWER in high gear,
And therefore you will have 'Issues' with highway 'Power' you feel when you try and accelerate at highway speeds.

Most of the 'No Power' and 'Spark Knock' posts are because someone slapped on big tires and didn't increase gear ratio to compensate...
Not to mention the speedo is going to be WAY off.

Off road builds are naturally better off with larger tires, deeper gear sets, and heavy duty axles...
That keeps the engine RPM, (and Torque Band) where it's supposed to be,
Doesn't load the drive line through the transmission/transfer case as much,
And you can strengthen the axles easily to compensate for the added gear reduction at the differential....

Instead of laboring the engine at lower RPM,
Stressing the transmission, transfer, drive shafts with tall gears and taller tires.

Guys that are jumping off into mud pits at full throttle don't stress the crap out of the drive line like someone trying to crawl up a hill or finesse an obstacle at low speed, usually just off idle,
So usually gaining gear reduction at the differential for every 2" in tire size is a good thing...

If you want to go 75 down the highway, then why drive a CJ?

If you want to go 1-2 MPH and walk up hills/trails at just off idle, no matter how steep, then get deeper gears or keep the tire sizes reasonable.

I'm running 4.10:1 with 33" tires and I'm capable of 65 MPH if I need it, but it's not an 'Interstate Cruiser',
And since it's a CJ, it's certainly not SAFE at 65 or 75 MPH!

It does, however, go very well down local highways, country roads, and gets me around in the mud, muck, greasy trails like a champ...
That's why I drive it so much in the summer!
It gets around the farm and river bottom land VERY WELL.

I didn't mean first gear. I mean 2nd through 4th when accelerating up to highway speed and then 4th at 70. I live it florida and its flats, where I live we get on the interstate to get around town. So the speed limit is 70 and I want to keep up. I dont have huge rocks and mountains etc. So i need a jeep that can drive to the mountains. So I need alot of highway miles before I can get to offroad. Thats why I want a highway jeep. I can't afford a trailer etc etc etc.

My old setup was a 350, t150, d20 with 4.10 gears....its would turn about 3000 at 75 this setup is gonna turn around 2500 isn't that in the power band shouldnt it accelerate ok at highway speeds?

If not what do you suggest?
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Unread 11-05-2009, 07:57 AM   #25
CJman77
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Hey Jeephammer I think as high as I can go without changing alot of stuff is 3.54? Right? The difference at 75 is 200rpm is this really gonna be a problem? I mean I always thought below 1800-2000 the engine lugs not so much at 2500? Am I wrong?
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Unread 11-05-2009, 09:58 AM   #26
kickingprop
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3.31's with 33's is what I run right now (albeit with a 5.3) but before I grenaded my T5 I could do ~70-75mph in 4th gear pretty comfortably. 1:1 4th gear with 3.31's and 33's will be OK....plus you get the super low 1st gear to make up for the 3.31's offroad!
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Unread 11-05-2009, 10:41 AM   #27
JeepHammer
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OP.... Correct.
The idea is to keep the RPM in the Power Band, where the engine is making enough power to accelerate without lugging the engine to the point of detonation.
That's the entire idea of gearing down on trails, to keep engine RPM up where it's making power while still having a slow ground speed...


So many guys are out there with 2.73:1 gears, large tires that knock the ratio back to about 1.90 or 1.80 something, and the engine running way too slow to make any power,
Then when they load the vehicle, trying to accelerate or climb they are winding up with detonation and hesitation instead of power.

Again, the guy from Fla. is comparing apples to oranges...
Most of us here are 'Off Roaders' and we are more concerned with the way our vehicles climb and hold the TRAIL than how the perform on the interstate...

It's what I'm always preaching, Application, Application, Application....
If he's mostly driving highways, and needs something that will run 75 MPH on the highway, and only occasionally gets off in the sand/mud down there,
Then he has the kinks worked out for his application.

For the guys that like trails, mud, sand, gravel, dirt, roots, ect.
We are going to run more aggressive tires which HATE highway speeds,
We are going to gear lower for better climbing and control on trails,
We are going to run lifts and softer springs which adversely effect the steering on highways,
We are going to run Lockers which have horrible road manners,
The list goes on...

I hate seeing 2.73 Gears around here, they are a pain to deal with on trails...
If you put oversize tires on 2.73 gears, then you knock the mechanical advantage back even more...

Most guys get along well with 3.31 up to about 3.73:1 gears if they don't get too large with the tires...
A buddy of mine put 35" tires on 3.31:1 on a very capable Jeep when he needed new tires, and just KILLED the performance of the vehicle on trails...
Runs great guns down the highway until you let up and go to part throttle,
Then it runs like it's out of gas, pings, knocks, rattles and generally is hard to keep in one lane at 60-65 MPH (sometimes hard to keep in TWO lanes!).

Now, if you have sway bars (Trail Jeeps usually don't),
Have tires that don't have giant cat chunk size throwing lugs (Trail Jeeps often do),
And you have an ignition/carb that work with the engine you are using,
Then you can go down the highway on larger (not HUGE) tires just fine...

Take off that sway bar, put on some large, aggressive lug tires, and leave the gear ratio in the basement,
You WILL have problems on the highway both with felt Acceleration, Control, and General Driving characteristics!
-------------------------------------------

As for changing gear ratios,

It's ALWAYS a good idea to scout around and check for a set of matched axles being sold with a better gear ratio.
Lots of guys do this for a little while, throw a ton of money in axles and other things, then loose interest...
(owning jeeps is a Marathon, not a sprint!)

Sometimes you have to buy the entire jeep to get the axles,
But I've had no trouble in getting my overall costs down since Jeeps are so popular all over the US...
You get surprises like lockers and LSD Differentials sometimes!
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Unread 11-05-2009, 10:59 AM   #28
CJhollic
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1980 CJ7 
 
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Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
3.31:1 gears and 33" tires will make for that vehicle being one slow pig on the highway, and it's not really advantageous for off road either.

Lockers (lunch box lockers) in the front is no big deal if you are going to keep the Dana 30 front axle.
The lunch box lockers can be unlocked by using hub lockouts, and a transfer case that has 2 wheel drive.
And with the 'Lunch Box' type lockers, you don't have to spend money setting up the ring and pinion gears again.
Very easy to install the next time you tear down for wheel bearings, housing seals, ect. it takes about an extra 30-45 minutes and $200-$250 to install the 'Lunch Box' lockers.

I wouldn't put much more money into a Dana 30 differential, they are just too weak at the ring and pinion, axles, U joints, ect to spend a ton of money on.
------------------------------

A full time locker in the rear of ANYTHING street driven is a bad idea because they cause steering/control problems and make all kinds of strange noises, twist axles, ect.

If you are going to drive the vehicle on 'Hard Pack', like pavement,
You are MUCH better off with a 'Selectable Locker' you can turn 'On & Off' rather than a full time locker...

OR,
You can go with a gear driven (gears instead of clutch packs) 'Limited Slip Differential', like a Detroit 'TrueTrac'.
I have a True Trac in the back of my little CJ-5 which sees about 50/50 pavement/county roads and off road, and I can't tell it from a locker in the rear,
But it doesn't do ANY of the stupid things a full time locker does.

The 'selectable' lockers are very nice to have, very strong, and if you go with something like an OX with a cable switch, then you don't have to worry about electric or air lines keeping you from locking the differential in...

Full Size lockers are EXPENSIVE to purchase, usually $600 to over $1,000 each,
And they are EXPENSIVE to install, around $250-$300 to have the ring and pinion gears set back up on the new locker housing...
And some are quite problematic if you start pulling loose wiring or air lines, get water in them, ect.

I've not had a minute of problem with the TrueTrac (Gear Drive) limited slip differential, and I believe that is what is going in the front when I change front axles.


Right now, with Aussie Lunch Box in the front factory D-30 carrier,
And a True Trac in the rear factory D-44 axle,
I go about everywhere anyone else does, and it does exceptionally well in soft sand & mud where other guys get stuck A LOT!
I have to disagree with a few things. I run 3.31 and 33's and get excellent performance off road AND on the pavement. Acceleration is fine and I can do 80 in 4th and rarely even touch 5th.

Not quite sure what you mean about stupid things with a full time locker in the rear but I have had mine in for over a year and use the CJ as a daily driver and have yet to see any radical noises other than an occasional click around a sharp curve, steering or control issues.

If you have the money and time to put an ARB or an Ox in the rear then fine, but if you dont a Lock Right is just fine.
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ViAir Onboard Air
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Dual Batteries
KC Daylighters
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Lock-Right Lockers
Yukon 1 piece axles
Custom Bumper& Swing Out Tire Carrier
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Chevy Blower Upgrade
1500 lb airbag suspension
Floor mounted gun rack (2 guns)

Last edited by CJhollic; 11-05-2009 at 11:25 AM..
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Unread 11-05-2009, 11:01 AM   #29
CJhollic
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1980 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJman77 View Post
One slow pig? Really? I will be turning 2500 rpm at 75? I would think with all the sm465's low gearing it would compensate adequately. Please enlighten me i need to figure this stuff out now while its all torn down!
Enlighten me too... Especially since I have been driving it for 4 years now and it runs just fine.

Anyone that has concerns should look at Mike Romains description of what his jeep will do on the highway. I second his assesment.

Here is a quote from one of his messages:

"1st gear lights up the BFG 33x9.5" muds way too easy off a start, 2nd hauls fst up to 4400 rpm @ 52 mph, 3rd pulls sweet up to 75 mph for highway passing or merging, 4th will bury the speedometer and I have 'no' urge to find out how fast 5th will go..."
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Weber 32/36 DGEV,
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8000 lb Winch,
ViAir Onboard Air
TeamRush ignition upgrade with MSD 6a CDI
Dual Batteries
KC Daylighters
Cold Air Intake
Lock-Right Lockers
Yukon 1 piece axles
Custom Bumper& Swing Out Tire Carrier
Mile Marker Hubs
Chevy Blower Upgrade
1500 lb airbag suspension
Floor mounted gun rack (2 guns)

Last edited by CJhollic; 11-05-2009 at 11:17 AM..
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Unread 11-05-2009, 11:21 AM   #30
CJhollic
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Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickingprop View Post
3.31's with 33's is what I run right now (albeit with a 5.3) but before I grenaded my T5 I could do ~70-75mph in 4th gear pretty comfortably. 1:1 4th gear with 3.31's and 33's will be OK....plus you get the super low 1st gear to make up for the 3.31's offroad!

Ditto........
__________________
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4" Suspension Lift , 1 " body lift
8000 lb Winch,
ViAir Onboard Air
TeamRush ignition upgrade with MSD 6a CDI
Dual Batteries
KC Daylighters
Cold Air Intake
Lock-Right Lockers
Yukon 1 piece axles
Custom Bumper& Swing Out Tire Carrier
Mile Marker Hubs
Chevy Blower Upgrade
1500 lb airbag suspension
Floor mounted gun rack (2 guns)
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