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Unread 04-03-2013, 12:29 PM   #31
82JeepCJ7
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Always remember, when you pull a cable through the conduit, ALWAYS attach another pull cord to the wire for future pulls.

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Unread 04-03-2013, 12:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKFireman View Post
I know this isn't strictly jeep related, but I am confident that someone here can help me. I have a new shop in the works and I'm trying to plan out the electrical side of things. I'm planning on a 100 amp service to the shop from my 200 amp service in the house. Its 127' from house to shop, so maybe 140' of wire total. I'm planning on using aluminum wire because of the cost - ran in electrical pvc conduit under ground. My question is what size wire? 1-1-1-3 or 1/0-1/0-1/0-3? Or other? Home Depot has the 1/0 for $2.70 a foot, also found it online here for cheaper, if its the right wire. http://www.wireandcabletogo.com/Alum...ding-Wire.html

Another question I have is that I want to run a water line to the shop with a frost free hydrant outside the shop. No plumbing inside the shop. I have ran water lines around here, at least 1' under ground and no freezing problems. Can the water line and electrical lines be put in the same ditch and pass inspection?

Thanks in advance for the help.
Just so happens I am a certified electrical and plumbing inspector in the international building codes. 1/0 AL wire fed by a 100 amp breaker on your main service panel will feed your shop just fine. And you can run 220V in your shop, It just wont handle a high amperage welder. Also, 3 conductors with a separate ground at the shop will work, and probably be cheaper. As for the water line, they can be in the same trench, as long as they are separated by at least 12 inches of fill, water on the bottom. And these are international codes, standard everywhere unless a more restrictive ordinance was adopted in your local municipality.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 12:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by lucdog View Post
The run from the breaker box in the house to the outside needs to be in conduit,
Nobody around here uses conduit. The trench has to be deeper without it, but trenching costs the same regardless of how deep it is.

Not saying conduit is a bad idea, but IIRC it isn't a requirement by code. Of course local codes can always supercede Int'l code as long as the requirement is more stringent.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP

Nobody around here uses conduit. The trench has to be deeper without it, but trenching costs the same regardless of how deep it is.

Not saying conduit is a bad idea, but IIRC it isn't a requirement by code. Of course local codes can always supercede Int'l code as long as the requirement is more stringent.
From the breaker box in the garage, to the outside of the garage wall, then down to below grade in the trench. Just like the crude drawing I did earlier. From the underground 90*at the house to the underground 90* at the shop is TKfireman's choice. Or whatever the local code says.

Sorry, probably wasn't as clear as it could have been.

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Unread 04-03-2013, 01:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
Nobody around here uses conduit. The trench has to be deeper without it, but trenching costs the same regardless of how deep it is.

Not saying conduit is a bad idea, but IIRC it isn't a requirement by code. Of course local codes can always supercede Int'l code as long as the requirement is more stringent.
Conduit is not required if the cable is rated for direct burial. In that case, the minimum depth is 24 inches. If you put it in a non-metallic raceway (schedule 40 conduit), the minimum is 18 inches. It is rare for these codes to be modified to be more restrictive, especially in a rural setting.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 02:06 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by hasselback View Post
Just so happens I am a certified electrical and plumbing inspector in the international building codes. 1/0 AL wire fed by a 100 amp breaker on your main service panel will feed your shop just fine. And you can run 220V in your shop, It just wont handle a high amperage welder. Also, 3 conductors with a separate ground at the shop will work, and probably be cheaper. As for the water line, they can be in the same trench, as long as they are separated by at least 12 inches of fill, water on the bottom. And these are international codes, standard everywhere unless a more restrictive ordinance was adopted in your local municipality.
how many amps do you consider a high amperage welder? I only have a 110 mig right now, but want to know for the future. I assume that if i use the 3 wire cable and a seperate ground that they would need to be in conduit since they are seperate, but they may depend on if both are rated direct burial. UD cable is underground only i think, so if i use it, then i have to transfer to a different cable in the buildings right? The XHHW has to be in conduit in or out of the ground I believe. It is also my understanding that a 100amp breaker will only take 1/0 cable at the largest.

what does code say about crossing a copper propane line in the ground around 12" deep? Do i need 12" between it and the electrical and or water lines as well?

I'm planning to rent a trencher, may be easier to dig two trenches just to make inspections easier, and a single trench would have to be 2 1/2' to 3' deep to work and i assume the inspector would have to make 2 trips to check each individually. My water lines under the house are PVC so it seems pretty straight forward to trench under foundation then hook to a 3/4" pvc water line under the house, put a cut of it in then run my line. Home depot/Lowes only carries water line in 100' lengths, so I would have to put a splice underground, think I should look for a longer section at a plumbing supply shop.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 02:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TKFireman View Post
how many amps do you consider a high amperage welder? I only have a 110 mig right now, but want to know for the future. I assume that if i use the 3 wire cable and a seperate ground that they would need to be in conduit since they are seperate, but they may depend on if both are rated direct burial. UD cable is underground only i think, so if i use it, then i have to transfer to a different cable in the buildings right? The XHHW has to be in conduit in or out of the ground I believe. It is also my understanding that a 100amp breaker will only take 1/0 cable at the largest.

what does code say about crossing a copper propane line in the ground around 12" deep? Do i need 12" between it and the electrical and or water lines as well?

I'm planning to rent a trencher, may be easier to dig two trenches just to make inspections easier, and a single trench would have to be 2 1/2' to 3' deep to work and i assume the inspector would have to make 2 trips to check each individually. My water lines under the house are PVC so it seems pretty straight forward to trench under foundation then hook to a 3/4" pvc water line under the house, put a cut of it in then run my line. Home depot/Lowes only carries water line in 100' lengths, so I would have to put a splice underground, think I should look for a longer section at a plumbing supply shop.
well, obviously if the welder pulls over 100 amps, then it wouldnt work, but a MIG shouldn't pull anywhere near that kind of amperage. any seperate 3 wire will not be direct burial, so it will have to be in conduit. Any cable that is for burial only can be run in conduit inside the building, or above ground to your panel. that way you don't have to change cable types. Code doesn't regulate crossing gas lines, just that a buried gas line cant be used as a grounding electrode. As far as separate inspections, many inspectors I know will allow you to bury your lines, and only leave the ends of the trench exposed to show the depth of each line, and the space between them. You may even get away without a permit anyway. And if you have a plumbing supply shop, or a Tractor Supply store near you, you can get 1/2 or 3/4 plastic water line in 150 or 300 foot lengths. I have a 100 amp sub-feed to my shop, and I ran 6-3 copper underground. But I got 150 feet from Lowes, but the dumb blonde at the checkout only charged me for 15 feet! Guess she couldn't see that zero!
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Unread 04-03-2013, 02:32 PM   #38
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My 220 welder uses a NEMA 50 plug on a 30 amp circuit. Any 100 amp service should work fine for 99% of the 220v welders out there.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 04:28 PM   #39
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If you need more then a 100a service for what you want to do I hope your making money doing it. You'll need two or three people doing heavy work at the same time.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 06:21 PM   #40
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I found out today that the town charges $450 flat fee to install a meter, first 100 feet of wire is included, $3/ft after that and its charged at a non-residential rate. Its probably around 500' feet from the shop location to the street, and they would a have to cross my paved driveway to get there.......That's not going to be an option.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 10:34 PM   #41
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Looks like you are getting plenty of good advice. Sift through it and decide what works for you. As someone who has found various underground utilities over the years with backhoe teeth and trenchers, I would suggest you find and expose your propane line by hand. Plan on going underneath it.
Remember your shop is going to be there forever(at least as long as you are) so put your utilities in to last, undisturbed for that long as well. When you expose that propane line dig back at least a foot or two on either side, that trencher will toss a lot of dirt. It will be worth the effort in the long run.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 10:49 AM   #42
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Just so happens I am a certified electrical and plumbing inspector in the international building codes.
And just when I was starting to like you, you go and let that out of the bag!
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Unread 04-04-2013, 11:18 AM   #43
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And just when I was starting to like you, you go and let that out of the bag!
Don't worry, Lewistown is just outside of my jurisdiction!
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Unread 04-04-2013, 12:26 PM   #44
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Unread 04-04-2013, 01:05 PM   #45
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Don't worry, Lewistown is just outside of my jurisdiction!
Yeah but we build pretty much anywhere in the center of the state!
No, I don't usually have issues with the mechanical inspectors and we only build to IRC. It's these McDonalds helpers that become building inspectors that have no training in construction or engineering and couldn't build a birdhouse out of a pre-cut kit; that I got issues with. They have little common sense and get on a power trip without regard as to how silly they make themselves look, especially when they can't read a drawing. But I don't want to paint them all with that brush either.
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