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Unread 04-02-2013, 12:54 PM   #16
lucdog
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The run from the breaker box in the house to the outside needs to be in conduit, also the same from underground into the shop, I wouldn't do it any other way. You need 450 of 1/0 that can be put in conduit. That's 3x 150',

image-2759025974.jpg

This is how it's done.

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1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 12:58 PM   #17
lucdog
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Some questions.

1.) basement in your home?
2.) where is the service box in the house?
3.) is 82's suggestion a option ( seperate run from the pole/underground box) to the shop with a meter.
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1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 01:09 PM   #18
TKFireman
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No basement, panel in house is in attached garage, which is conveniently the closest place to where the shop is going to be. Second meter is an option, but has a monthly charge associated with it of around $30, haven't called for the exact number, but don't think it is worth it. I'm having trouble finding Al wire in the 1/0 size that can go in ground, all I find is #2 and 4/0 which seems like a big jump, then there is a roll of 1/0 copper, 500' for $1,031.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 03:54 PM   #19
TKFireman
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Made some phone calls to different supply places
1/0 xhhw $.53/ft single strand so I would need 3 plus a ground
1/0 UD 3 wire $1.40/ft - would have to add a ground wire

So I could run 1/0 aluminum for around $2 a foot or so in 2" PVC conduit, either way would work correct?

Then I would need to run conduit on the interior or transfer to SER cable on the inside, I think
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Unread 04-02-2013, 08:46 PM   #20
86cj74.2L
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2awg copper is fine for a 100a service for your garage. (My pull was 180ft from panel to panel)

I've never been called to a service that failed using copper. Aluminum I've seen enough broken neutrals and service feeds ill go the extra mile and run copper. When you loose your neutral and get 240 across the 120v receptacle and blow up everything up........the copper looks real cheep.

Don't be cheep on your electric. You will regret it.

I ran rigid conduit for the first and last 10ft and PVC in between. That way where the conduit that is exposed its rigid metal. I did the same with the conduit I ran under the slab for the receptacles and light circuits.

You can never have enough receptacles. I have a 30*50 ft pole building and I have dual duplex receptacles on each pole.

Get a load center panel that has around 40 breakers. You can never have enough room.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 11:44 PM   #21
frhrwa
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I used to use a piece of tubular foam, just a bit smaller than the inside diameter of the conduit.. feed 12 cord waxed line through the middle and tie to a small washer.. then put the old shop vac on the end, and wa la.. out pops my 12 cord.. (that's waxed 12strand nylon line,) and it will pull in a larger cord for pulling in your wire.. IF you do have to use bends, use wide 90's.. and if you come to a corner, do as the above stated, use an LB, pull to and from.. I realize copper is more expensive, I just installed over 3000' of it 400@ service with a 200@ drop at my shop.. and I run nothing smaller than 12 gauge house and shop, larger depending one what I'm powering, ...yep, your right, expensive... but after seeing the house fires I've seen due to Aluminum wiring, call it what you may, I'll do copper!..
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Unread 04-03-2013, 02:16 AM   #22
BDP72
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I've read through the thread and u have good some good advise but one thing I've not seen is what can of load do u have on ur 200 amp switch box in the house? And what can of load is going to be in the shop? Lets say u have a good size house with 2 central units and add a 3rd in the shop then u fire up ur old trusty welder to work on ur CJ and bam ur in the dark due to and overloaded 200 amp main at the house. I would look in to building a riser on my shop with a 200 amp 42 ckt panel then have ur local power provider hook up a new service. Now u might have to pay a commercial power rate but might b worth it in the long run. Then again I r no one else really knows all the details so do ur self a favor and call a local license electrician for some advise, u might have to pay him a service call but will b cheaper than replacing ur home!
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Unread 04-03-2013, 05:47 AM   #23
TKFireman
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I'm looking into a seperate meter for the shop just to know, left a guy with the town a message yesterday waiting on his return call. Shop will not have heating and air besides a wood stove and fan. Planning for 220 compressor, welder, two post lift, refrigerator, standard 110 tools like table saw and such with room for expansion in the future. All of these will not be ran at once. Worst I can see is wife is cooking supper while drying clothes ona hot day and the A/C is on, my compressor kicks on while I'm welding. Don't think that is too much forr the 100 amp sub or the 200amp main is it? Its a perfect storm scenerio
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Unread 04-03-2013, 05:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKFireman
I'm looking into a seperate meter for the shop just to know, left a guy with the town a message yesterday waiting on his return call. Shop will not have heating and air besides a wood stove and fan. Planning for 220 compressor, welder, two post lift, refrigerator, standard 110 tools like table saw and such with room for expansion in the future. All of these will not be ran at once. Worst I can see is wife is cooking supper while drying clothes ona hot day and the A/C is on, my compressor kicks on while I'm welding. Don't think that is too much forr the 100 amp sub or the 200amp main is it? Its a perfect storm scenerio
I think you'll be fine. My mother in laws house is all electric and it causes no problems when I'm wielding and the 5hp (30a feed) air compressor kicks on.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 06:59 AM   #25
aggiejon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frhrwa
find something you truly don't need, wife, kids, you know, something that's got to be worth a little bit $$ .. sell, then go with copper.. look around the shop, what's been sitting literally months or years, not touched, worth just enough to clear the difference in the price ... and DO lay a good conduit in with the wire, you'll never regret having an extra pathway.. I use the grey, and I put in 2" so I could pull whatever I needed easily.. anywhere you trench, put in an extra conduit (not metal).. you'll always have it and may not need it, but if you do, it sure saves a lot of digging..
^ What he said!
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Unread 04-03-2013, 07:17 AM   #26
Matt1981CJ7
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FYI, one of my biggest regrets when I built my house was not putting a 220 outlet in the garage.

You can bet my barn will have one, when I get around to pulling power to it.

Matt
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Unread 04-03-2013, 07:34 AM   #27
wmshay6
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A couple of thoughts

Everyone is advising against using AL Service Entrance cable. That's what you want, because it's a service entrance. Absolutely nothing wrong with feeding a panel with AL wire. It's safe, done all the time, and cheaper. Now your branch circuits are another matter. But to feed the panel, use AL. I bet you a donut if you pull the cover of the house panel, it's fed with AL wire. That's all the power companies use. If you feed the panel in the garage out of your main panel, you want to be sure the breaker is rated for AL wire and use this stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/Noalox%C2%AE-A...keywords=no-ox

Trenches, in MD where I am, we have to go 36" deep for water lines to keep them from freezing. It's common practice (and code approved) to dig a 36" trench, lay your water line, backfill to 12-18" deep, then lay your conduit for electric service.

Speaking of conduit, conduit is like garages. Figure out the size you think you need, then make it bigger. I would go 3" from the house to the shed for the heavy wire. Why? Ever try to pull heavy wire? It's a witch. The bigger the conduit the better. And while the trench is open, throw in a spare 2" conduit. It's cheap. And then when you want a phone, or security system, or cable TV or whatever in the shop, the conduit is already in place.

As far as wire size goes, there are calculators all over the web that will calculate it for you. You may need 3 conductors, may need 4. Depends on your locale and what version of the NEC they use and enforcement. Best to ask a local inspector because the answers are different all over the country. Ask them what they want to see, then give it to them and your inspection will go A LOT easier. You are pulling a permit and getting an inspection I assume.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 07:51 AM   #28
lucdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdog
X2 on all the circuits with copper. Only use aluminum for the panel feed. Here's why. A typical cl (copper) switch or receptacle is around $0.70, the same hardware in al (aluminum) is roughly 8x that price. NEVER , NEVER, use a switch or Receptacle not rated for al with a al wire. NEVER!!!! Price is not the main reason, it has to do with contraction and expansion of the al wire, and loose connections over time.

Bill
No, not everyone .

Quote="If I were doing this I would run 1/0, aluminum. 3 wires and drive a 10' copper coated ground rod outside the shop. 1/0 because of only a 3% drop in voltage.

I would also run a seperate smaller conduit for later use , and maybe a underground rated , or in the same conduit a 12/3 , this would be for a 3 way light switch at the house and shop". End of quote

Bill
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 04-03-2013, 09:20 AM   #29
frhrwa
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really too bad you didn't post this a few months ago.. I had a brand new 400@ service box.. replaces your 200@ meter box, then you have split circuits on your same meter ... I advertised it, dropped the price to totally ridiculous, then finally tossed it in the recycle ben and the dump.. cost me over $400 and my electrician gave me this crap that it was the wrong one, turned around installed the "exact" same one and charged me for it, should have stuck it up his a$$ and sent him sailing!.. anyway, ...
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Unread 04-03-2013, 10:45 AM   #30
sparkey
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Garage

Lucdogs' drawing is fine and the way I would do it going by what you tell us.
A #2 copper will work just fine for the load you described, you can use a #4for the neutral and a #4 for the ground, yes you need a 4 wire system, 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground, no ground rod at new shop, on a sub panel, and 2" pvc is plenty big. You can push a jet line in the pipe as you put it together by snaking a stiff wire through the first 10' joint and so on and when finished you can then pull in the pull rope. Definitely run a smaller conduit for any of the other things you MAY put in, phone, TV, etc. If you have any outside connections use Penatrox on Alum. and copper as well. This will work just fine, BUT by all means check with your local building inspection dept. if it has to be inspected.

Sparkey.
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