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Unread 04-02-2013, 06:12 AM   #1
TKFireman
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need advice for my shop

I know this isn't strictly jeep related, but I am confident that someone here can help me. I have a new shop in the works and I'm trying to plan out the electrical side of things. I'm planning on a 100 amp service to the shop from my 200 amp service in the house. Its 127' from house to shop, so maybe 140' of wire total. I'm planning on using aluminum wire because of the cost - ran in electrical pvc conduit under ground. My question is what size wire? 1-1-1-3 or 1/0-1/0-1/0-3? Or other? Home Depot has the 1/0 for $2.70 a foot, also found it online here for cheaper, if its the right wire. http://www.wireandcabletogo.com/Alum...ding-Wire.html

Another question I have is that I want to run a water line to the shop with a frost free hydrant outside the shop. No plumbing inside the shop. I have ran water lines around here, at least 1' under ground and no freezing problems. Can the water line and electrical lines be put in the same ditch and pass inspection?

Thanks in advance for the help.

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Unread 04-02-2013, 06:20 AM   #2
Redmanchew
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I know you have to run 4 wire out to the garage if you plan on coming off the panel. One big rule is you dont mix copper and aluminum. you need to stay one or the other and purchase switches/outlets and breakers for that application.

I think the frost line aroudn here is 18".

You may want to call an inspector and just see what he can give you as far as info goes and tell him you will use him when you get it inspected. It may save you big $$$ in the long run. If you have to pull out 100' of aluminum 1/0 and replace it with copper then that money could easily have paid for a visit.......
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Unread 04-02-2013, 07:09 AM   #3
lucdog
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The first thing to do is check local electrical codes.

If I were doing this I would run 1/0, aluminum. 3 wires and drive a 10' copper coated ground rod outside the shop. 1/0 because of only a 3% drop in voltage.

I would also run a seperate smaller conduit for later use , and maybe a underground rated , or in the same conduit a 12/3 , this would be for a 3 way light switch at the house and shop.

On running the water line, I don't see a problem, that being said, I don't know Texas electrical code. Again, if I were doing this, I would run the water line in the trench first, followed by 8 to 12" of fill, then the conduit. And, I would not have any mechanical connections underground in the water line.

Don't forget to call J.U.L.I.E. before you trench.
Bill
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Unread 04-02-2013, 07:21 AM   #4
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When I was a utilities inspector in California we didn't allow wets and dries in the same trench.

Putting a waterline in the same trench can cause problems if A) the pipe leaks and B) someone tries to dig up the waterline. He risks disturbing the dries which is both unsafe and expensive if hit. Plus you will have to hand dig because you are over the dries.

I'd really discourage it even if it is allowed where you are. renting a trencher is cheaper and safer than putting everything in the same trench.

I can only speak for what I know, but on private property electrical needed 12 inches of vertical separation from Telco which needed 6 inches from gas. Gas I believe needed at least two feet of cover. That makes about four feet of cover for electrical. You can start to see another reason why the wets are in a separate trench.

I also strongly recommend conduit even if the utilities will let you direct bury. In case of replacement or upgrade of electrical service, life will be MUCH easier and quicker. Certainly less disruptive.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 07:28 AM   #5
TKFireman
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Thanks for the advice guys. I don't know the Texas or the NC code Bill....... I work for the town so hopefully the inspectors will be a little extra helpful to me. I'll contact them and see what I can find out. I didn't think about a 3 way switch, I was planning on using motion sensor lights on the exterior of the shop, but a 3 way switch is a good idea. Is the wire in the link I posted the correct wire? I think it is and even with shipping charges its about $250 delivered for 150' versus close to $400 buying it locally.

I hope I don't need the 2' separation from a gas line, I have to cross a propane line that is about a foot under ground. I really don't want to dig a 3' deep trench. If I need a second ditch for the water line, not a huge deal, just wondering. I know they run water and electric lines in the same ditch for wells, but don't know the codes that go with it
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Unread 04-02-2013, 07:53 AM   #6
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1/0 Al would be the best choice. #1 would work, but if you plan on a compressor and possibly a welder the larger conductor will keep your voltage drop under 2percent at the panel. As your load increases so does the voltage drop. The goal is to keep your voltage drop under 3 percent at the furthest device. Code requires a minimum burial depth of 18 inches for pvc conduit. I think Lucdogs' suggestion for a 3way switch is great, run a separate 3/4" for it. Your inspector may not care but when you put more than six conductors in a single conduit you have to de-rate the ampacity of all of the conductors. Good luck, can't wait to hear/see your progress!
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Unread 04-02-2013, 08:02 AM   #7
frhrwa
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find something you truly don't need, wife, kids, you know, something that's got to be worth a little bit $$ .. sell, then go with copper.. look around the shop, what's been sitting literally months or years, not touched, worth just enough to clear the difference in the price ... and DO lay a good conduit in with the wire, you'll never regret having an extra pathway.. I use the grey, and I put in 2" so I could pull whatever I needed easily.. anywhere you trench, put in an extra conduit (not metal).. you'll always have it and may not need it, but if you do, it sure saves a lot of digging..
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Unread 04-02-2013, 08:03 AM   #8
TKFireman
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Gotta do more research on local codes and more shopping around for prices today. Right now I'm waiting on engineered building drawings to come in so I can get the permit and put the foundation/concrete guy to work. I'll put pics of the build and my progress in my build thread when it gets started. So far I've just removed some trees and had the stumps ground
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Unread 04-02-2013, 08:05 AM   #9
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What makes copper worth 3x the price? Its a huge difference when your talking 150'. Nothing in the shop worth that except the CJ and we all know that ain't happening.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 08:14 AM   #10
82JeepCJ7
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Is getting a 2nd drop for the shop out of the question? If you can do it, I'd go with a 200amp panel.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 08:19 AM   #11
Bigmaaty
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Copper is a better conductor, hands down. But Al. has a bad rap, properly installed and maintained Al will give you just as many years of service. Run the Al feed to the shop subpanel and use copper for all your branch circuits. When you land the Al at the panels make sure you use an antioxidant, No-lox, Penetrox or similar. Torqueing the set screws correctly is important, Al will expand and contract with temperature change more than Cu. If you over tighten the set screws all you will do is damage the Al conductor. Check the torque on the set screws after a few months of use and maybe once a year or so after that.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 09:47 AM   #12
lucdog
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I buy things like this local so I don't know the price. I'm also not familiar with the letter system on wiring, so I go to the local owned shop and tell them what I'm doing, and how I'm doing it, they tell me what I should use. A fellow FF used to be a IBEW electrican, so I will also ask him.

Also, if you don't know how to start pulling string thru the conduit , a shop vac, and a fishing bobber is one way. There is a "mouse" that Greenlee makes for this purpose. Start small like a kite string, work your way up to a 1/4" rope. I'd pull all 3 wires at the same time, wire lube will be your friend here. Don't make to many 90* bends without putting in a "LB".

image-3778590945.jpg

2 people will be needed to pull the wire.

The propane line is a seperate issue. I'm sure there is a set distance between it and electrical.

Bill
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1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 10:02 AM   #13
lucdog
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X2 on all the circuits with copper. Only use aluminum for the panel feed. Here's why. A typical cl (copper) switch or receptacle is around $0.70, the same hardware in al (aluminum) is roughly 8x that price. NEVER , NEVER, use a switch or Receptacle not rated for al with a al wire. NEVER!!!! Price is not the main reason, it has to do with contraction and expansion of the al wire, and loose connections over time.

Bill
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1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 04-02-2013, 10:45 AM   #14
TKFireman
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I was planning on all copper in the shop, just trying to figure out how to get power to the shop. I'm still looking but what I found so far is that SER wire can't go underground in or out of conduit, the mobile home feeder wire that Lowes sells can go in ground but not in a wall unless its in conduit, so I could run SER out of the house and transition to MHF or other underground cable in a sealed box and make the run to the shop. It seems that MHF is only available in #2 or 4/0 at Lowes or the local electric supply store. They also said that they had no other underground wire besides the MHF. Sounds like I may just go with the 2-2-2-4 MHF and 90 amp breakers. 90 amps would probably handle everything I need to run considering everything is not going to be on at once
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Unread 04-02-2013, 10:51 AM   #15
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Use a Snake to get the first run in.
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