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Poison spyder items @ oconee off road 706 534 9955FS: 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler "HALO" Angel Eye KitFS: Wranger BRIGHT License Plate LED! Just $3! Great value

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Unread 09-05-2013, 04:54 PM   #31
gmakra
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Thats a 91-95 head

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Unread 09-05-2013, 08:05 PM   #32
yellow85cj
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Couple thoughts

Looks like a late 70's very early 80's 258 block with a 4.0 head. The 3rd pulley was used when they had air pump style emissions. You can get rid of it, you only need 2 pulleys on the crank. (just have to shorten the bolts, make sure they don't rub the timing cover)You will need a 2 groove pulley on the water pump if you want to go power steering. The one you have (not pictured) is probably a double.

If you are going to go EFI, you will probably want to start looking for a 84-86 aluminium intake. The MPI intake that you have was designed for air only, not air fuel. Never heard of anyone doing the head swap keeping the MPI intake unless they kept the MPI. Obviously it works as you have/had a running engine. But Howell may say you can use it with EFI, not real familiar with any FI. I thought the Howell kits used the 84-86 intakes.I did the head swap, used the 85 intake and am staying carb'd. Here's what that looks like. Not complete, but getting there. You will need the 4.0 intake/exhaust gasket. (Again, check the pics in the link below)


You may want to get a later model exhaust manifold. The kind that has an accordian section at #1 and #6 cylinders. Just what was recommended to me and it came with the head I picked up. Some say it is less likely to crack. Might check yours for any cracks in the tubes. BTW, there is a torque sequence for the intake/exhaust manifolds. (again, in the pics in the link).

Adapting the 84-86 aluminium intake is easy. Here's how I did mine.
https://picasaweb.google.com/85YellowCJ7/40HeadSwap#

I kept the EGR set up, not at all necessary and most that do the swap just block the EGR or leave it in not hooked up. If you are looking to keep "stock", leave it.

I did get some studs from McMaster Carr to mount the intake/exhaust instead of using bolts. (pics at the end of the intake/exhaust link) It was easier to mount the intake/exhaust. Not necessary, but helpful. Check VACJ7's build thread. That's where I got the idea. There are a few places on the intake/exhaust that you may need larger washers for. If you search 4.0 head swaps, you will get a few different ideas and spots they are needed. Check Gojeepins posts. He did a nice job and what I tried to recreate.

With the EFI, you will be able to adapt a stock air cleaner as well. Will kinda hide the EFI.

With the rebuild. Hopefully the rebuilder figured out that it was a 4.0 head and used the proper parts. As for the "rods" you mentioned, I am assuming you were talking of the push rods. Some who have done the swap say the 4.2 rods fit fine, some said they needed the 4.0. If the builder measured, he should have put the correct ones in and the valves are to spec.

The one thing you don't know and will have to ask the builder and/or PO, were the coolant passages on the 4.0 head blocked off and a 4.0 head gasket used, NOT the 4.2 head gasket.

If you are going power steering you will have to mod one of the brackets, but again, not a big deal.

That oil tube looks a little ummm.... weak. Most who replace them use a 4.0 set and modify a bit. Remark where full and add are.

That's about all I have. Good luck with your project.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 12:21 AM   #33
Tyger78
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The intake was a big concern. Are you saying that I can put an older "carbureted" intake onto the 4.0 head that I have? If so... that's exactly what I want to do.

And thank you for all the input. But now that you've exposed yourself, I'm sure to bother you with a bunch more questions =)

If I can put an older intake on... say an Offenhauser for a 258, then I am hoping that I can choose any exhaust manifold as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In the middle of typing that last sentence I looked at your 4.0 head swap pictures. Very cool. I've made up my mind. I'm just going to order whatever the hell I want and modify it to fit my needs =)
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Unread 09-06-2013, 12:33 AM   #34
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Do you have a record of exactly what you ordered from McMaster Carr? I'm looking through their site for the studs you incorporated and I was hoping there would be an easy bright neon sign saying "These studs retrofit intake/exhaust manifold". Apparently it's not like that.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 01:09 AM   #35
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If you want "Classic" and you want new could I suggest the following:

1. Take out the 258 and have the short block rebuilt
2. Keep the 4.0 HO cylinder head. I understand you can buy an expensive performance version of this head in the US that is new but that one you have is fine.
3. Fit the correct 258 inlet manifoold, 1982+ aluminium one. Sorry, you will need second hand.
4. Fit the right 4.0 exhaust manifold to match the head.
5. Fit a Weber 38 with an adapter and an original style TAC cleaner OR consider a reman Carter BBD (yes, I know. But they work and it is the stock look) with the TAC. I am not sure looking at it which carb you have on there now.

This is giving more poke than a 258 as the head design flows better but look to the untrained eye like an original. Forum members report around 15-20% more power with the head swap. This is high on my list of mods to do when I get the time.

If you do want fuel injection then you can either put it on the 4.0 head you now have or alternatively go for the full 4.0HO swap using a rebuilt 4.0, but in both cases use the Mopar systems and fuel injection and electrical gubbins. They really are great units. However you will spot it as soon as you lift the hood with the plumbing and power control centre etc.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 09:26 AM   #36
yellow85cj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyger78 View Post
Do you have a record of exactly what you ordered from McMaster Carr? I'm looking through their site for the studs you incorporated and I was hoping there would be an easy bright neon sign saying "These studs retrofit intake/exhaust manifold". Apparently it's not like that.
Added the part number list and description to the head swap pics link. It is the last pic. (Studs,nuts and washers.)

As Bagus said, the OEM intake will only be available used. The OEM aluminium intake has a water jacket unlike the earlier cast iron intakes, hose goes from water pump to intake, out the back of the intake to heater core, out the heater core to the water pump. Also has a heater (porcupine looking thing ) under the carb opening. The only new intake that I am aware of would be something like an Offenhauser that is set up for a 4 bbl carb. Not sure if they have the water jacket, but are made for the 258, so it should fit the 4.0 just like the OEM 258.

People run carbs, Carter, Weber 32/36 or 38, Ford 2100,Holly Truck Avengers, on the OEM intake as well as EFI. So it is your choice. Couple of threads to check would be 243's for the junkyard EFI , Keith460's for the Weber tricks to have the OEM air filter fit, and VACJ7's thread for a few other things (he is auto as is yours so would be good for the exhaust set up). Gojeepin runs a 2100 on his 4.0 (complete 4.0, not just the head.Except the 258 intake). Swatson454 seems to be the resident carb guy on the forum.

Exhaust manifold, I would look for a 95 4.0 or a header aftermarket for a 4.0. Might stay away from the OMIX or Rugged Ridge. Not too many good comments on any of their parts. Look at Rockauto.com for 4.0 exhaust header and you will see the stock. Say a 1995 for one that will fit.

Bagus pretty much gave you the condensed short list.

It may sound a little complicated but it's not. Once you start getting into it (parts in hand) it will all fall into place.

Do get the exhaust/intake set up done (fitted) before installing the engine (then pull it off if needed) or at the very least with the fender off. Makes it so much easier. Some of the manifold bolts are hard to see and get to with the fender on.

I am just an amateur shade tree mechanic. The members I have pointed to are where I have gotten advice from and are way ahead of my knowledge. Check with them, all are good guys and willing to help.

Oh, can't forget Jeephammer for the ignition mods (still keeping it stock looking for anyone but an expert)
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Unread 09-06-2013, 02:07 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow85cj View Post


As Bagus said, the OEM intake will only be available used. The OEM aluminium intake has a water jacket unlike the earlier cast iron intakes, hose goes from water pump to intake, out the back of the intake to heater core, out the heater core to the water pump. Also has a heater (porcupine looking thing ) under the carb opening. The only new intake that I am aware of would be something like an Offenhauser that is set up for a 4 bbl carb. Not sure if they have the water jacket, but are made for the 258, so it should fit the 4.0 just like the OEM 258.
Clifford makes a 4.0 intake and adapters for 2 or 4 barrel's plus an adapter for Webers. It's water heated but no electrical heater like the stock 258. Its open plenum, better for higher RPMs but i have no problems crawling with it.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 08:45 AM   #38
Tyger78
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Here goes:

I'm about to make my order, just wanted to toss it out there for people to rip apart before I pull the trigger. Here's what I've decided on.

The Clifford Intake 47-4500WH
http://www.cliffordperformance.net/M...gory_Code=J258


The Clifford Exhaust 57-2015


The Howell Throttle Body Injection (this one I don't know if I should get the CJ or the YJ kit, because of the 4.0 head) Advice Please.
http://howellefi.com/jeep-tbi-products.html
http://howellefi.com/images/detailed/0/d_16214_1.jpg

Also... going to put mounting studs in the head from McMaster Carr. #94358a330 (quantity 10 ea.)
http://www.mcmaster.com/


Nuts from McMaster Carr. #93776a471 (unit of issue= Pack, Pack= 10 ea.)


Washers from McMaster Carr. #98099a031 (unit of issue= Pack, Pack= 10 ea.)


As of right now I'm expecting to have to manufacture some custom square washers and or modify some flanges, but this is as far as my plans have made it right now. I'm mainly putting all this info up here for my own reference, but please chime in if you see something incompatible.

The Howell kit boasts that it bolts right up to a 2 barrel intake, so I'm a little confused as to what adapter plate I will actually need. The Adapter plate from Clifford is $100 so I'd obviously prefer not to have to waste the money on it if it's not required.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 08:49 AM   #39
j33pman
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I have one of those Clifford intakes, I would be willing to part with it unless you would rather buy a brand new one.
Shoot me a PM if you are interested, I can take pictures of it tonight.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 08:55 AM   #40
walkerhoundvm
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Howell offers an adapter for the Clifford in place of their usual 258 intake adapter. It's the typical $50, if I remember correctly, you'll need to ask for it when you make your order.

Just a warning on the Cliffords - I never had good luck with them, your mileage may vary. I've had two and both have had internal cracked water jackets, both poorly mesh patched at the factory and sold to me. Of course, you only find out they leak when you have them installed and you start blowing white smoke out of your exhaust and take the throttle body off to find coolant pooling in the manifold. Their QC apparently sucks.

Second thing is that they provide gaskets with their kits. DON'T use them. They fall apart after a couple hundred miles. If you're hellbent on Clifford, go with OEM gaskets throughout.

Last, they haven't been in the business of providing fittings for the water jacket (for your hoses). Good luck finding something suitable, there isn't much out there that I could find.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 09:13 AM   #41
swatson454
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You'll probably want to run duals off of those collectors for roughly 20 inches before "y"ing into a 2 into 1 collector and out with 2.5 inch pipe. At least that's how I'd go about it.


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Unread 09-09-2013, 10:50 AM   #42
Tyger78
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Well now I'm concerned about the quality of the Clifford intake. I was reading on another forum (Ford or something) about how the customer service and quality may have drastically changed since the passing of the founder and the company went under the sons control. That's a shame too, because I really want to use the Clifford. Now, once again, I find myself lost and running out of time.

I plan on sending this to the powder coater before I get home to work on it. The combination of the two products would mean that I wouldn't have to modify anything with grinding, which means I could send it for powder immediately.

There just needs to be a Jeep Genie... a little head-lamp that you rub and then the JeepNie pops out and makes all your Jeep wishes come true. All in favor?
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Unread 09-09-2013, 01:31 PM   #43
Tyger78
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I'm about at the end of my nerves right now. I just got off the phone with Larry? from Clifford and I asked him if his kit was a complete bolt on, no grinding modification and he confirmed that I can send the parts straight to the powder coater.

However, he asked me how the engine was rebuilt and what kind of cam was put in. I told him it was rebuilt to stock and just "normal". He then proceeded to tell me that a Howell TBI wouldn't even work on my engine with the stock cam. And told me how "he has the only cams that will work with a howell".

Although I did not show it, I about lost my damn mind. How many people have put on a howell? how many people are boasting that it doesn't work.... I haven't read anywhere that it doesn't work. I'm at the end of my nerves. The engine is already rebuilt, sitting in my driveway (wrapped), I'm not putting carburetor(s) on this thing, that's old tech and quite frankly unreliable. I find it ridiculously hard to believe that an engine "wouldn't even run" because of these things. I'm putting TBI on it, supplying it with air.... and supplying it with a way to get the exhaust out. I absolutely understand about cfm, convergent/divergent ducts, backpressure.... blah blah blah.....

My stress level is about maxed right now, somebody please hose me down. He also said "if the builder put a comp cam in there, it definitely won't run"... wtf....

Now... my questions have evolved.

1: What do you guys think of this? The reason I'm going for TBI is not for high performance, it's simply for comfort and reliability for a daily driver.

2: Do you think I have to change the cam? If so..... doesn't seem that hard right?

3: Anyone know of someone else with this TBI kind of setup that had as many problems as "Clifford" is suggesting?

Now... on the phone, he was a very nice guy and for what I could tell, either knew what he was talking about or a really good salesman. Me... being a jet mechanic.... I don't know too much about cams as all my stuff deals with inlet pressure, fuel flow and turbine temperatures. Please, somebody school me and let me order some damn parts already =)
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Unread 09-09-2013, 01:35 PM   #44
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Seems pretty strange that Clifford makes the only cams that will work with Howell EFI.
I know comp cams makes 2 different grinds based on carb or fuel injection, but I don't think they are hugely different.
Give a call over to Howell and see what they have to say about it. they should know best about their product.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 01:45 PM   #45
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I had Clifford products on a stock engine with a TBI for two years before 1) I realized the intake was leaking and 2) CO state emissions forced me to revert to the stock configuration with a Howell TBI. It ran fine with the water jacket hoses diverted to avoid leaking into the intake and passed emissions. Larry is either naive or FOS.

You have a stock 4.0 head, from what I'm reading? I don't know the best approach, but I'd seriously be considering an MPFI set up with that. I admit I don't know what exhaust manifold works or how to arrange it, but pretty sure it can be done. There are dozens of threads on 4.0 head swaps with MPFI set ups here on the forum. In your case I'd be looking for a used intake (but you may already have one) and a used MPFI throttle body with all the associated wiring.

I know it's probably a big PITA when you're out-of-country, but try not to sweat it. Haste makes waste, a stitch in time saves nine, etc.
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