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Unread 04-10-2012, 05:21 PM   #16
VACJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
It's close to slate blue. What I like about slate blue is that it's hue changes based on the light available and it even looks good when dirty.
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Originally Posted by mvigo View Post
It is the original color...I will get this question of the paint code answered shortly!
Well now I have 2 blue's on my short list. Slate blue and whatever color yours is!

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Unread 04-10-2012, 10:12 PM   #17
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OK, first order of business is to finally address a place to permanently store my Hi-Lift jack. I have the Warn Rockcrawler bumpers front and rear with the Warn tire carrier. Looks and function were exactly as advertised until I realized that I couldn't use the tire carrier for any storage as Warn didn't offer any accessories to accomplish that feat. When I called them and asked why they said their tire carriers were only engineered to carry the weight of a spare tire up to 150 lbs. and no more. So, for all these years I have stored the jack on the floor between the front and back seats and anyone sitting back there would have to maneuver around it. Awake in bed one night brainstorming about how to utilize the tire carrier without putting anymore weight on it a solution finally occured to me! Why not weld in a couple of vertical braces to a horizontal brace and have the Hi-Lift sit on top of the horizontal brace. First the tire carrier:



My solution:



I am even able to secure a shovel to the extra vertical bars via Quick Fist clamps and since the weight of the Hi-Lift jack will be sitting on top of the horizontal bar and not hanging from it I figure the extra weight shouldn't put too much undue pressure on the hinge pin. I am not an engineer but that is how I am thinking. If anyone disagrees, let's hear it.



The shovel would be positioned on the other side between the tire carrier and the back window.

Today I cut out the pieces, grinded away the paint on the carrier and welded in the "T" into the horizontal bar:





So, the "T" acts as a sleeve and slips into the center tire carrier post. I will then weld that piece to the post as well as drill some 1/2" holes and weld some rossette welds into the sleeve and post itself like this:



Thanks to Jim1611 for that little tidbit. I truly believe this solution will solve my problem of storing my jack in a very secure, stable way.

As I am thinking ahead and before I weld it all up, I have a couple of questions to throw out to you guys. 1) How should I finish the tire carrier once completed? with POR-15, spray paint? something else? and 2) Is my thought process wrong in terms of the engineering side of things?

Thanks...
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Unread 04-11-2012, 06:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mvigo View Post
The list is in my sig, my profile and I did my best to list it in the 2nd post. If you want the full details, ping me, and I will be happy to send them to you. Unless you or others think it is worth listing on a post here.
Thank you! For now I am good with the list in your second post...IMO your CJ is built the perfect amount, functional and tasteful upgrades without losing the classic CJ style...I love it, and really do plan to mimic some of your upgrades as I get time and money. I'll let you know if I have specific questions on any of the items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvigo View Post
1) How should I finish the tire carrier once completed? with POR-15, spray paint? something else?
Options are limitless! I have heard great things abour POR-15 but haven't had personal experience. A competing product that I do have some experience with is Monstaliner, a fantastic product that is bit cheaper than POR-15, very durable and easy to clean, but you have to like the textured look you get with the product...it isn't for everyone. You can also get some great results with a solid scuff, 2-3 coats of spray can primer, followed by 2-3 coats of your choice of spray paint...best part about his option is budget friendly and easy to touch up when it gets damaged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvigo View Post
and 2) Is my thought process wrong in terms of the engineering side of things?
I don't think its wrong...as you wheel around, hit the brakes, press the gas, open and close the swingout, you will be putting some additional pressure on the spindle and latch, but when it is sitting still on level ground you won't be because, as you said, it is mounted directly over the horizontal bar rather than hanging off of it. Mounting the items high up makes the leverage as you stop, go, open, close, more of a concern, but to be honest, purely from the looks of your swingout, It looks like Warn is seriously underselling their product a bit...Probably so they can't be held liable if it does break. That spindle looks like it can easily handle the weight of a high lift and shovel in addition to the spare tire carrier. I don't know if you have seen BESRK's swingout thread (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f37/r...long-101332/)? Lots of very detailed discussion over the course of 8 years on swingout design, spindle ratings, how to mount additional stuff, etc. His original design used a 1" spindle rated at 1000lbs. Yours looks to be at at least 1 1/2" so I would guess the weight rating is at least that (not that size is a pure correlation to weight rating, but it is usually an indicator)

Bottom line, the highlift will look good there, I don't think you need to be overly concerned about the weight issue.
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Unread 04-11-2012, 06:38 AM   #19
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Your swing out add on is looking good Mike. You sure aint wasting any time getting started either, I have to get an idea then languish for at least a week.

Looks plenty strong too. You're not adding that much weight to adversely affect things. Finish....what do you have on hand? POR would be good if you have it and then topcoat but I hear great things about the Hammered Rustoleum too.
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Unread 04-11-2012, 06:53 AM   #20
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Unread 04-11-2012, 08:44 AM   #21
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"the Hi-Lift jack will be sitting on top of the horizontal bar and not hanging from it I figure the extra weight shouldn't put too much undue pressure on the hinge pin. I am not an engineer but that is how I am thinking. If anyone disagrees, let's hear it."

I'm not officially an engineer, but I engineer homes for a living. So I understand load transfer pretty well. I do disagree but still don't see a problem doing it as you have done. Whether it's sitting on top of the bar or hanging off the side makes a difference that is negligible. The higher you go the more leverage you add obviously, but any weight above it's support is transferred back to it's support. So the force (vertical or lateral) exerted on the pivot is the same whether it's hanging open 3" or completely open to the rear or passenger side. Only when that carrier is in it's latched position does it share support with the latch side and cut that weight nearly in half at the pivot side. Otherwise all the force, beit from leverage or material weight, is distributed back to it's only means of support.
As for the 150# limit, that's not a make or break point. There's always a safety factor figured in, sometimes as high as 8, when designing limits. So that pivot can probably take at least 300-450#s but they don't want you pushing the limits, for both safety and liability. So that extra 30# jack is not going to break the carrier, as long as it's securely fastened to eliminate any vibration wear.
I have a similar tire carrier from Smittybilt and I plan on making a mount that holds the Hi-Lift base on the bottom horizontal tube and angles towards the top of the center vertical bar. Hopefully it will clear the back of the tire. I haven't tried it with the tire mounted yet.
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Unread 04-11-2012, 10:54 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
"the Hi-Lift jack will be sitting on top of the horizontal bar and not hanging from it I figure the extra weight shouldn't put too much undue pressure on the hinge pin. I am not an engineer but that is how I am thinking. If anyone disagrees, let's hear it."

I'm not officially an engineer, but I engineer homes for a living. So I understand load transfer pretty well. I do disagree but still don't see a problem doing it as you have done. Whether it's sitting on top of the bar or hanging off the side makes a difference that is negligible. The higher you go the more leverage you add obviously, but any weight above it's support is transferred back to it's support. So the force (vertical or lateral) exerted on the pivot is the same whether it's hanging open 3" or completely open to the rear or passenger side. Only when that carrier is in it's latched position does it share support with the latch side and cut that weight nearly in half at the pivot side. Otherwise all the force, beit from leverage or material weight, is distributed back to it's only means of support.
As for the 150# limit, that's not a make or break point. There's always a safety factor figured in, sometimes as high as 8, when designing limits. So that pivot can probably take at least 300-450#s but they don't want you pushing the limits, for both safety and liability. So that extra 30# jack is not going to break the carrier, as long as it's securely fastened to eliminate any vibration wear.
I have a similar tire carrier from Smittybilt and I plan on making a mount that holds the Hi-Lift base on the bottom horizontal tube and angles towards the top of the center vertical bar. Hopefully it will clear the back of the tire. I haven't tried it with the tire mounted yet.
Also not an engineer, and can almost guarantee I don't understand all the forces at work to the level you do.

I was operating on the assumption (and maybe mvigo too) that the only force we need to be concerned about with the spindle is lateral force, not vertical force...maybe this is wrong thinking, but couldn't you set an incredibly hefty weight (say 1000#) directly on top of the spindle without worrying about undue wear or breakage? If the same weight were applied further down the arm of the swing out, toward the latch, I would only be concerned about undue wear or breakage when the swing arm was open (either 3", or all the way, as you said, doesn't matter), because closed there would only be a vertical force on the spindle, whereas opening it introduces a lateral force. Now if the same weight was re-positioned again to hang off the side of the carrier, like the tire does, that would concern me because it causes a constant lateral force on the spindle, whether open or closed. So given a choice of the three of these options, directly above the spindle is best, above the swing arm is second best, and hanging off the side will cause the most wear and tear.

Does this sound right?
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Unread 04-11-2012, 12:33 PM   #23
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Yes and to a much lesser degree no. There are 2 things you have to consider. The pivot spindle isn't really receiving much vertical pressure because it's not a solid connection bearing down. It's most likely got ball bearings transferring any force between the carrier itself and the spindle along it's side. If it were just downward pressure from one to the other then it would be a simple gravity transfer straight down. Now some of the weight may be, I don't know the design of that particular spindle. Point is that it's still becoming a lateral load to the spindle. (Unless contact is made on top or bottom but it looks like it wraps around the spindle)
Now that may not make complete sense but you have to also consider this. Imagine the Jeep wasn't there, you just have the horiz. bumper with a vertical spindle. The carrier attaches to the spindle. Now if you spin that carrier anywhere in the 360* circle, it's force transferred to the spindle is the same, a levered lateral load, even when over the bumper. So the leverage your thinking of is always there. Now if we add the latch stop/ support at the other end of the bumper, then when it swings over that point of support, roughly half that weight gets supported now at the far end of the carrier and any leveraged lateral load now becomes a vertical gravity load to that end.

I'm probably not making much sense since I can't use hand gestures and doodles on paper. My intent in my original post was to not worry about adding a slight bit of weight to the top or side because either way it's pretty much all levered lateral load when open and a minuscule amount when closed. I was splitting hairs to explain why he shouldn't be too concerned if it's on top or off the side of his horiz. top bar.

I see your from Bellefonte. Small world. Did you happen to go to that "No Roads" event that EVOR did over at Penn's Cave last November?
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Unread 04-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #24
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So what if it breaks you look to have the means to fix it. I personally don't think it will. But anything is possible. Warn builds some pretty stout stuff. Looks great!
As for coatings Por 15, Hammered textured paint, powder coating or some type of bed lining coating all great choices.
Great looking CJ! Something to be proud of.
I'm also interested in the paint code.
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Unread 04-11-2012, 02:37 PM   #25
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Yes and to a much lesser degree no. There are 2 things you have to consider. The pivot spindle isn't really receiving much vertical pressure because it's not a solid connection bearing down. It's most likely got ball bearings transferring any force between the carrier itself and the spindle along it's side. If it were just downward pressure from one to the other then it would be a simple gravity transfer straight down. Now some of the weight may be, I don't know the design of that particular spindle. Point is that it's still becoming a lateral load to the spindle. (Unless contact is made on top or bottom but it looks like it wraps around the spindle)
Now that may not make complete sense but you have to also consider this. Imagine the Jeep wasn't there, you just have the horiz. bumper with a vertical spindle. The carrier attaches to the spindle. Now if you spin that carrier anywhere in the 360* circle, it's force transferred to the spindle is the same, a levered lateral load, even when over the bumper. So the leverage your thinking of is always there. Now if we add the latch stop/ support at the other end of the bumper, then when it swings over that point of support, roughly half that weight gets supported now at the far end of the carrier and any leveraged lateral load now becomes a vertical gravity load to that end.

I'm probably not making much sense since I can't use hand gestures and doodles on paper. My intent in my original post was to not worry about adding a slight bit of weight to the top or side because either way it's pretty much all levered lateral load when open and a minuscule amount when closed. I was splitting hairs to explain why he shouldn't be too concerned if it's on top or off the side of his horiz. top bar.

I see your from Bellefonte. Small world. Did you happen to go to that "No Roads" event that EVOR did over at Penn's Cave last November?
Ahh, that makes it clearer actually...even without doodles. Sounds like I was over-simplifying the concept of "vertical" pressure on the spindle. Same conclusion either way I suppose, a 30# jack isn't going to change all that much no matter where it is mounted.

Yes, small world. I really wanted to attend the No Roads event but had a work function same weekend so missed out. Couple more events coming up I might try to make it to though...Go Topless at Rausch Creek on 19 May and Spring Thaw at Doe Valley on 19-20 May. Do you get out and wheel much? I think a plan is in the works for some guys to go on a 21 Apr trail ride in Houtzdale, a little far for you but you would be welcome, I need a cj buddy as they all have other models. You can find us here if interested in going out sometime ( http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f352/...areas-1323215/ )

Sorry mvigo for straying off topic! Back to your jeep in your thread now, I promise.
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Unread 04-12-2012, 12:06 AM   #26
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Renegade82...I understand what you mean and can even picture the "hand talking"...

takirc02...I was thinking what you were thinking in terms of what I thought was the downward pressure.

I finished welding up the tire carrier today and it came out like this:



I am not that strong but can carry it around fairly easy so it, along with the jack, shovel and tire mounted to the carrier shouldn't pose any problems, especially after understanding Renegade82's point(s). Here is a shot with the tire mounted and jack resting on it:



I called Warn to ask them how they finish their products...all powder coated...the person I spoke to thought that if I just primed and rattle can painted with a semi gloss black I should do OK. So I stopped by the auto body supply shop near me and bought the goods to paint the carrier. I also bought some threaded 1/2" rod that I will cut down, thread into and all the way down to the bottom of that bar and then either weld or JB Weld the rod to the bar, both on the inside and outside. The 2 pieces that I will do is what the Hi-Lift jack will rest on, secured by nylon bolts so that don't vibrate off. Again, if you see a better idea out there, holler. I still am not 100% sure that is the way to go..

While I was at the auto body supply shop I looked at some PPG paint code catalogs and, looking at the small 1/2" x 1" paint swatch for a 1985 Jeep I am guessing that my color is Ice Blue Poly, paint code 4C, PPG #3624. They can mix that up for me in a rattle can so that I can spray my hood. $28/can and they think 2-3 cans should cover the hood. Can't put hardeners in the rattle can so I need to buy clearcoat spray paint to go over the color for another $28/can. Seems a little high priced but it should get me by until I eventually do the frame off restoration. I am upgrading my brakes soon (Vanco hydroboost), so when I have the m/c and vacuum booster off I hope to find the paint tag on the firewall to confirm that code. Stay tuned...
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Unread 04-12-2012, 06:25 AM   #27
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I see you're still having trouble with the sleep thing.

I think you've got a great plan going Mike and your work is looking great. Grinding the welds flat isn't something you have to do but it sure makes it look more finished.

Staying tuned.
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Unread 04-12-2012, 07:40 AM   #28
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I'm not sure if I follow you with the threaded rod but it may be the same as this thought. What if you got 2 bolts, 4 nuts, 4 flat washers, 2 lock washers, and 2 wingnuts. Drill thru, top to bottom, your top horiz. tube and stick the bolt up thru and put 2 nuts on each bolt (just to create a pillar, which may need 3 nuts to get the needed height). Then a flat washer, the jack, another flat washer, lock washer and wingnut.
That way it's easy to take on and off and theres no welding needed. Just some holes to drill.

If you didn't pick up the primer already I'd suggest a self etching primer for a better hold on the new metal.

takirc02 - I won't hijack his thread, but since I'm posting... No, I didn't make the No Roads event. Sounds like it would have been fun. My Jeep is in pieces right now on shelves (see my build thread) and I'm hoping to have it done prior to Octobers 2nd annual No Roads event, but it may be just wishful thinking. I haven't wheeled much at all in the past few years. Family, work, projects, roads and trails closed, posted, or blocked, and due to my frame I haven't trusted it lately. Hoping to get back into it some once the build is complete. I'm a trail guy and that No Roads event sounds like my kind of fun.
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Unread 04-12-2012, 09:25 AM   #29
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Not sure what you are talking about with the threaded rod either. I am sure you are explaining it just fine but I am not seeing it in my head.... X2 on Renegade82's plan
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Unread 04-12-2012, 11:36 AM   #30
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Mvigo, I think I just get you. Pretty sure his idea with the threaded rod is nearly identical to renegade's idea with bolts and washers...he just plans on welding in the rod (on both top and bottom of the mount bar) so it extends vertically rather than using a bolt that could fall out and get lost when the nut is removed. Additional benefit of this plan could be a nice clean look, no bolt head and washer on the bottom side of the mount. My hijack bumper mount uses the same concept, but they are lug studs that were pressed in rather than welded.
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