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Unread 02-25-2011, 07:35 PM   #556
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Belt replacement

We're planning to spend a couple of weeks at the beach this summer, and I'd like to take the CJ. I think she can make the 60 mile round trip there and another 50 miles round the island OK, but it would suck if she broke down at some point. So I'm trying to figure out things I need to knock out in the reliability department.

One thing I've never changed was the belts, so I tackled those tonight. Ultimately, Keith460's information and photos were dead on, but since my '85 isn't clean and polished like the one in his photos, I had to do a bit more work to get the power steering belt off.

My CJ has power steering, no AC, and uses V-belts (not serpentine). So based on that I knew what 2 belts to get.

The CJ had a Gates 9463 Power Steering belt, and I replaced it with a Gates 9465. The alternator belt was a Gates 7435 and I replaced it with a 7430. I have no idea what the difference is, but the new belts seem to fit fine and appeared to be basically the same size as the old ones, or perhaps a bit smaller since they hadn't been stretched yet.



The alternator belt has to be removed before you can get the power steering belt off. The alternator belt replacement is a snap, but the power steering pump is more tricky because there are maybe a dozen bolts and 3 different brackets holding it in. The trick is to know which bolts to remove or loosen. Keith460's information and photos show you exactly which ones to deal with.

On my CJ, I had to loosen an additional bolt before I could get the pump to work free, and even then it was a struggle.

This photo shows the key players. I think I was using a 9/16" socket.



Once you get the bolts removed or loosened, you can push/rotate the pump down, and the metal bracket tilts up. In the next photo you can see how the bracket has tilted up. The pump roates on the same axis as the bolt that i used PB Blaster on and loosened.

I had originally followed Keith's directions but the pump wouldn't move. Finally I started to realize how it was supposed to move, so I loosened up the 3rd bolt and that was the key in my CJ.



This final photo shows the rear bolt (head points toward the firewall). I had a b!t(# of a time getting this one back in. The threads just would not pick up. I spent 10 minutes trying various ways to get it back in. Finally I got it started even though it was crooked. I was worried about crossthreading it. Eventually I realized that when I had removed it, it came out a bit crooked. As a test, I screwed a like-sized nut onto the bolt and it went on fine so I figured the bolt's threads were OK. So, I figured perhaps it had already been cross threaded.

Anyhow, I got it screwed back in and didn't have to struggle with the wrench which lead me to think it wasn't cross threaded. I also put 2 washers on this bolt, as the tip of the bolt was originally pressing on (or very close to) the pump body and I didn't want it to get that close again.

This photo also shows the square hole where you can insert a ratchet to get more leverage on the pump.



One final thought: If you've never done a belt replacement before, note that you have to pass the belts around the radiator fan to get them on/off (ie: fan goes through the belt). This part of the procedure always seems a bit weird to me for some reason. If you imagine the fan is just a large disk, then it's easier to see that, yes, it has to pass through the belts to get them on/off the engine.

In other news:

1) The spare tire carrier is still rock solid. Now I hear all the other things rattling.

2) The valve cover gasket is leaking more than ever. I think I will replace it again using the added tricks I've picked up since did it the first time.

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Unread 02-25-2011, 08:34 PM   #557
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Ken,

As always, thanks for taking the time to do this detailed write-up!

It will certainly help fellow Jeepers in the future!


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Unread 02-25-2011, 08:46 PM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKT
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Ken,

As always, thanks for taking the time to do this detailed write-up!

It will certainly help fellow Jeepers in the future!

.
You bet! That's my hope... To give a bit back to the jeep community.
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Unread 02-25-2011, 09:18 PM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken4444 View Post

I found an Autometer 2890 4K "Open box" tach on Ebay for $46.00 which was about half price.
Ken,

Is this tach still working good for you, any regrets or issues?

I am looking into getting one (would love to find the deal you did), as I don't see the need for the 8K Sunpro I currently have (PO installed).

Curious if you were able to retain the dash pad with this configuration? Doesn't appear to be present in the pics. If not, do you see any way around it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken4444 View Post

Anyone need a Sunpro 8K tach, used only a few months?
Same traffic...



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Unread 02-26-2011, 07:57 AM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKT View Post
Is this tach still working good for you, any regrets or issues?

Curious if you were able to retain the dash pad with this configuration? Doesn't appear to be present in the pics.
The Autometer 4K tach is fantastic. I love it and would buy it again. Because I don't think I've ever driven the engine over 3,000 RPM, the 4K tach suits my needs very well. It is responsive and accurate enough that I can detect small oddities in the way the engine idles. I have found that I use the tach as one mechanism to gauge the health of the engine. Since i've had this problem where the engine sometimes idles low, stumbles, and almost dies, the tach is a good indicator about when that is happening because it makes it easy to see a difference of 50 or 100 RPM.

I pulled off my dash mat and never reinstalled it, so don't know if it would work with the tach or not. I can take the time to test fit it this weekend if that information would be helpful.

My CJ orginally had a red interior (visors, dash mat, seats, and probably the carpet), so a PO painted the visors and dash pad black. The original red seat is still in back with a grey cover on it. The paint has worn off the dash pad and visors in areas, revealing the original red vinyl underneath. So that was one reason to leave the dash pad off.
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Unread 02-26-2011, 10:42 AM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken4444 View Post

I can take the time to test fit it this weekend if that information would be helpful.

The paint has worn off the dash pad and visors in areas, revealing the original red vinyl underneath.
Thanks a lot for the details/review on the tach. You confirmed the reason(s) I want to ditch the useless 8K, and go with a 4K!

If it is not too much of an inconvenience, I would really appreciate the test fitting of the dash pad with your tach in it's current location. I am trying to determine weather I'm going to remount the tach on the steering column, or relocate to the dash in order to use the dash pad.

Speaking of dash pads - I recently scored a nutmeg OEM dash pad which I planned to repaint black. I have seen plenty of write-ups on painting them, but haven't heard any feedback from after the fact until yours above. Do you think they used cheap spray paint or poor prep? Any plans to re-spray yours, and if so, I look forward to seeing your write-up. My paint will have to wait a couple more months, as we are not experiencing the nice weather like you all!


Thanks again!



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Unread 02-26-2011, 12:37 PM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKT View Post
If it is not too much of an inconvenience, I would really appreciate the test fitting of the dash pad with your tach in it's current location.
I'll to a test fit today or Sunday. I have been slowly cleaning out/up the garage in prep for having to find space to store: 2 seats, sport bar, subwoofer cabinet, rear sear, and whatever else I pull out of the CJ before working on the floor pan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKT View Post
Do you think they used cheap spray paint or poor prep?
It's hard to say for sure, but judging by some of the other work done on my CJ by the PO, the issue was both using the wrong paint, cutting corners, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SKT View Post
Any plans to re-spray yours, and if so, I look forward to seeing your write-up.
Personally I don't really like the dash pads, even though I usually aim to keep my CJ in the direction of being more stock looking than not. To me, the dash pad is a blatent cosmetic add-on that was trying to give some modern appear to a vehicle based on primarily utility use. The dash pad just stands out in a bad way. I suppose in an all stock CJ with metal doors, AC, carpeting, and all that, the dash pad is one element that adds to the feeling of a more polished interior, but in my Jeep with canvas doors, black painted floor, beat-up dash panel, and dust everywhere, the dash panel doesn't look right.

If I do repaint it, you guys will be the first to know. My visors have the same treatment: black paint on red vinyl. That paint is getting thin in a few spots too. New CJ visors cost and arm and a leg, so I may have to repaint mine if too much red starts showing. For now, however, I'm more focused on the leaky valve cover gasket and the rust holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKT View Post
My paint will have to wait a couple more months, as we are not experiencing the nice weather like you all!
Although we have highs in the low 70's all weekend and week, right now we have 100% cloud cover and high humidity. It should be 100% sunny by mid-week though and I'll probably take the top off then. I've had the doors off all week though and it's been great.
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Unread 03-12-2011, 06:11 AM   #563
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Brakes

Here is a summary update. I will post details and photos after I make more progress. I replaced the front brake rotors, calipers, pads, and one anti-rattle clip that was broken. That went really well after I finally lined up the correct tools and I was pleased with the work and the results. I will post photos that will really help the folks who've never pulled apart the front spindle assemblies and changed out the brake rotors.

I then went to bleed the brake system and started running into problems right away (I can see a lot of you nodding your head in agreement). I was using a MityVac brake bleeder. The rear passenger corner would never show any brake fluid. I bailed out on that and moved to the other side, still on the rear axle. I pulled probably half a quart of fluid through there but was still getting air. It didn't take long to see that the old, dark fluid had purged out and I was getting new, clean fluid through the line. But still I had air. I closed that side and tried the front calipers. Those seemed better, but still I had air. Then I realized that the plastic hose on the brake bleeder was pulling in air. I could close a bleeder valve and work the MttyVac and it would pull in air from where the hose connected to the bleeder. So at that point I figured maybe I was OK, at least on the front calipers. I went back and worked on the rear drums but had the same problems.

By this point with the front rotor/caliper work and all of the bleeding, I had spent 4 hours and knew I had to get up for work in anothewr 7 hours. So I called it quits. I ran a little more than 2 quarts of new fluid through the system.

I have been reading JF and there is no shortage of posts from people with brake bleeding problems. Here's my plan:

1) Buy more fluid (I only have 2 quarts left, and some reports state that far more than that is needed sometimes)

2) Check that the front calipers are not on backwards/upside down. I think they're right, but this needs to be checked first.

2) Spend some time at the proprotioning valve to make sure it's not stuck.

2) Bench bleed the MC, in place.

3) Try the Mityvac again.

4) Use a helper on the brake pedal to see if that yields better results.

5) Do a gravity bleed.
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Unread 03-12-2011, 08:05 PM   #564
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Disc brake service, part 1

I decided to tackle the brakes. The brakes were not bad (except for the parking brake which is very weak, probably due to my worn out drum brakes), but I had never given them any attention other than adding fluid.

I did the disc brakes first due the ease of working on disc versus drum. I decided to avoid too many shortcuts and go ahead and install new calipers.

Here we see brake fluid, calipers, bleeder valve wrench, and a Mityvac with attachments for
bleeding brakes:



Next we see snap ring pliers, the Crown 2-1/16" thin-walled socket, and 2 boxes of anti-rattle clips:



Here are the clips and the socket:



New rotors:



Here's the price breakdown (It's hurting to force myself to see the list):
  • New rotors, NAPA #4885645, $35.99 each
  • Reman calipers, Wagner brand, O'Reilly #TQM25180 and #TQM25181, $62.99, each
  • Brake fluid, $12.00 for 64 oz.
  • Anti-rattle clips, $1.29 for 2 clips
  • Crown spindle nut socket (2-1/16") from 4 Wheel parts, $7.99
  • Craftsman spring clip plier set, $20.00
Here is the driver's side assembly, just after getting the wheel off:



Here we are looking down at the top of the caliper. The black rubber thing is the cover for the bleeder valve. YOu can also see the broken anti-rattle clip if you know what to look for:



Looking forward, we can see the caliper and the rotor encased within:




I didn't take any photos of the caliper removal because it's not really needed. It's one of those small puzzles you just have to figure out on your own.

But here's what you need to know (at least on my Jeep): Get 7 MM Allen wrench and unscrew the 2 bolts that hold the caliper to the bracket. The bolt heads are encased in rubber sleeves so they're kind of hidden.

Here, we see the removal of the brake line from the caliper. I Think it's a 1/2" bolt. It was tight, so I had to stick the caliper back on the rotor so I could put force on the wrench while the caliper was held in place by the rotor (I didn't reattach the caliper mounting bolts though, as then I wouldn't have been able to get to the brake line bolt)

Have a large jar or bucket standing by to catch the fluid that drains out of the break line.



Here's the bolt that holds the brake line onto the caliper. It has holes drilled in it to allow for the passage of fluid.



The brake pads on this side had some mileage left, but one was pretty carved up. You can see the uneven wear here. I suspect the PO had the pads replaced but didn't get the rotors machined:



Better view of one of the pads:



To install new rotors, you have to get dirty. Here's a photo from my Chilton's

manual showing the nuts, washers, and bearings that attach the hub to the spindle. You will be removing several of these pieces:



Here I have loosened the locking hub mechanism's 5 bolts:



Here is the hub removed. We see the splines of the spindle and the first large hex nut (2-1/16"):



Same shot as above, but wider angle:



Behind the nut, you can see a washer which has been bent over. Both spindles had the same problem on my Jeep. It didn't prevent me taking the nut off, but it didn't help. Before re-assembly, I put the thing in the vice and flattened it a bit, but not all the way.


---EDIT--- Thanks for JF user Mvigo for pointing out that the washer is supposed to be bent, "The big washer that you straightened out in a vise is supposed to be bent back over the spindle nut to prevent that nut from backing off and thus having the potential of the whole wheel falling off while driving"

I will have to go back and re-bend my washers
--- end edit ---




(continued in next post)
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Unread 03-12-2011, 08:20 PM   #565
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Disc brake service, part 2

(Disc brake service, part 2)

Here's the same washer, removed, showing the bent part. This could be from where it had been pried out before. I don't know...



I set each part on a clean piece of paper, in order, so I could re-assemble it the correct way. There is no real rocket science here, but never having done this before I didn't want to take any chances that I'd get the order wrong:




Note that once you have the thing disassembled like this, it is a good opportunity to perform other service such as installing new bearings and performing Jeephammer's water-proofing steps. Thanks to Mvigo for pointing this out!

Here's the spindle with the hub and everything else removed. The scond bearing comes out when you pull off the hub-



Here is the back of the hub/rotor assembly. You can see the groves worn into the rotor.



At first I was not sure how the hub and rotor were attached togethger. I read one post stating that they can get rusted together and can be difficult to separate.

My CJ isn't too rusty so I didn't know if this would be a problem or not. After tinkering with it for 15 minutes, I figured out the trick:

Turn the assemly so that the studs are pointing up, and pound them out with a hammer. You could also use a punch to be sure to avoid damaging the threads, although the studs are rounded at the ends so the threads aren't really exposed to the head of the hammer.

Here we see the rotor separated from the hub, and the 5 studs standing up:



Stud removal with hammer:



After separating the rotor (which I wasn't going to reuse), I had the hub to deal with. What I REALLY needed was a blasting cabinet so I could get the thing pristine again. You all know how I like to refinish metal things. But that wasn't in the cards. So I wire-wheeled the hub and used auto degreaser/cleaner to help loosen the buildup of grime. I also used a scraper to get the heavy stuff off. Also, I left the bearing inside the hub and put clean paper towels balled up in each open end of the rotor so prevent crap from getting in there. I know a professional would have cleaned all of the grease out, installed new bearings and seals and all that, but I did not take that step. Some of you may consider this a shortcut.

It pained me to disassemble all this stuff but leave some parts still dirty...

Believe me, I'd love to have taken the time and expense to replace all that stuff, but now I know it's not to difficult to do in the future.

When I did the passenger side, I noticed the hub/rotor assembly had some real play in it: like 1/8" inch. It seemed wrong. When I was disassembling the parts from the spindle, one of the nuts was not tight. It was about 1 turn from being finger tight!

When I reassembled that side, the final product was rock solid: no more play It's one of those things that was lurking that I might never have known about, but an experienced Jeep mechanic (or any mechanic) would perhaps take the time to inspect before putting any real miles on the vehicle.



Here we see the cleaned hub on the new rotor. I show it from this angle so you can understand how they fit together. It's easy to lose track of which way the rotor goes. This is one of many times when you can look at the other side to see how it's supposed to look.



Here we see hub in the rotor with the studs pounded back in:



IMPORTANT! I was not able to pound the wheel studs in 100% of the way. The only way to get them all the way in (short of using a press), is to mount the wheel on the hub: When you tighten the lug nuts down, it will pull the studs to be fully seated. Because of this, I would reccomend that you re-tighten the lug nuts after 50 or 100 miles of driving, just to be sure everything is tight.


And finally we have the whole thing mounted back on the axle. Note there is no brake caliper yet.



Now, if you've never done disc brakes before, it's difficult to know how the pads relate to the caliper and the disc and the mounting bracket. Here we see the new pads sitting on the mounting bracket. All the caliper does is squeeze the pads against the disc. It's that simple. The wire pieces are the
ant-rattle clips, but they hook onto the caliper.

I can't really explain how the pads sit on the bracket. It's another one of those small puzzles you just have to figure out. Look at the other side if you need help. It's not complicated but like anything else, it takes longer the first time.



Here's the caliper on the pads. Note you can barely see the shiny metal bleeder valve toward the top. THE BLEEDER VALVE MUST GO TOWARD THE TOP, NOT THE BOTTOM. If it's on the bottom, then you have the wrong caliper on.



Here's the broken anti-rattle clip. Because the caliper slides on its mounting bolts (that's how it's designed to work), it is designed to move around and it could rattle. The anti-rattle clip is designed to prevent that.



And finally, a bonus shot of the CJ on 4 jack stands:



That's it for the photos.

After I got the front brakes done, I had to bleed the whole system, in part because I wanted to putge out the old fluid which was of unknown age.

If you're new to brakes, here's the bottom line on bleeding: The brake hydraulic system must be free of air. Air compresses, but fluid does not. If you have air in the lines, then the brake pedal will feel spongy and you won't have the same breaking ability. So when you bleed the brake system, you're simply getting out the air.

It sounds simple, but it can be a pain.

I started bleeding with the MityVac so I could do the work without needing a helper to operate the brake pedal. The mityvac did a good job of pulling out the old fluid while I refilled the master cylinder with new fluid. The problem was I could never get to the point where I wasn't seeing air bubbles coming out of the line. Ultimately I think this was mostly because the bleeder hose didn't fit air-tight on the bleeder valves.

After going literally around and around the Jeep with the Mityvac, bleeding each corner over and over, I stopped and then got a helper to start working the brake pedal. That's when I finally started seeing some results. That purged out some air, some additional old fluid, and ultimately the brakes were made to work well again.

Don't hesitate to get a bleeder valve wrench. This was the best $5 I spent for the project. It fits precicely on the valves, it doesn't fall off, and it is offset so that it stands slightly away from the calipers.

In the end, I ran about 1 1/2 quarts of nre brake fluid through the system. Some posts here claimed to use a lot more than that to get a good, air-free system.

I still need to service the rear drums. One is leaking fluid pretty fast and just looks like a mess inside. The other one looks to have been serviced but I will still probably replace the shoes in it. Drum brakes are a bit more complicated than disc, so it will be a learning curve for me. New drums are not cheap, so I intend to re-use mine. The initial inspection didn't reveal any major flaws that I could see.

After doing the brakes today and taking a couple of test drives, I can honestly say the brakes are imrpoved. They aren't as dramatically better as I had hoped, but I am pleased for a first time brake job. There may still be some air in the system. Plus, my drum brakes are probably totally gone so I think I'll get some more stopping power once those are properly done.

During the process I started to question the viability of the master cylinder but I think it's OK at this point. I have do doubt that it will also need replacement at some point in the future. The posts here are full of warnings about the poor quality of the reman MCs. J.E.E.P...

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Unread 03-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #566
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Been working on bleeding the brakes use MityVac also But, air bubbles continued not from the lines but adapters, MityVac items,, not as good as expected..once close to purge I get a helper to try the old fashion way
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Unread 03-12-2011, 09:10 PM   #567
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Nice write up Ken
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Unread 03-12-2011, 10:39 PM   #568
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Great write up will be a great place,to look and read over before I do my brakes. Thanks Ken for the great job.
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Unread 03-13-2011, 06:47 AM   #569
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As always, what an awesome detailed write-up!

This is sure be referenced in the future for fellow CJ'ers inquiring about brake work in the future!

Thanks for taking the time to share this!


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Unread 03-13-2011, 09:00 AM   #570
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Quote:
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Been working on bleeding the brakes use MityVac also But, air bubbles continued not from the lines but adapters, MityVac items,, not as good as expected..once close to purge I get a helper to try the old fashion way
I would fully agree with your statement based on my experience.

The Mityvac vacuum tool is fine; it works as expected: It makes and holds vacuum. The problem is the various tubes, fittings, and container that are not air tight. These items are included with the Mityvac I bought and they lessen my opinion of the whole deal. The Vac is not as helpful if the other parts are poor.

One other word of warning: The clear plastic cover over the face of the Mityvac pressure gauge fell out at one point. I popped it back in, but it was a small thing that added to the frustration. Just imagine this:

I literally have brake fluid all over my hands, shorts, shirt, and up to my elbows. I've been all around the Jeep 2 dozen times, bleeding each corner multiple times trying to get the air out. I'm tired from sitting on the concrete floor, laying on the floor, getting up and down, walking around, opening and closing bleeder valves. The mityvac is covered in brake fluid. It's slippery. My dang hands are tired from operating the vacuum for an hour. It's looking like I'm not making any more progress with the bleed. I'm struggling to get an air-tight seal on the fittings. Then the dang plastic cover falls out and almost lands in the bucket of brake fluid. It wasn't a big problem but a reminder that trying to do things yourself may save some money, but always costs a lot in time.

During the whole bleed process, I kept thinking, "I wonder what Brake Check would charge for this, and should I have paid them?" But the more problems I ran into, the more I kept envisioning a $1292.25 quote from Brake Check to fix my brakes. Ouch. (I didn't actually get a quote from them, but I suspect it would have not been cheap) I'm not saying that paying a brake shop to brake work isn't worth it, but being a DIY person, I always think about how much I'm paying for another person's labor, how much markup I'm paying for their parts, etc. Each person has to make their own decision about these things.
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