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Jim's new hybrid Scrambler build- tons of questions coming!

436K views 2K replies 124 participants last post by  Jim1611 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi guys,

I've sold off my YJ with the LT1 engine and megasquirted TPI on top to help finance my Scrambler build.I'll start off to answer you first question- "Why TJ Tech Forum?" <edit>Moved now to CJ Forum</edit> Well, the hybrid Scrambler frame I had throttledowncustoms.com build for me is a hybrid with 4 corner coils and control arms- TJ style.

<edit>June 16th/2011- thread moved to CJ forum where the real round headlights live:p</edit>

I have a Aqualu Scrambler tub being delivered to my home tomorrow for it. With the rolling CJ7 I have my eye on I'll turn it into a CJ7/8 one-off.
Then

Now


I've had the replacement frame setup to take a 20 gal poly YJ tank just rear of the rear axle (CJ7 style) rather than use a deeper Scrambler poly tank between the last two members.

The 8 control arm mounts match TJs. I'll be using ironman4x4fab solid arms. [EDIT] Now Currie double Johnny Jointed [/EDIT]

OK- First really big question. Axles? I want to use Dana 60s front and rear. I have an NP205 Chevy pass drop tcase. I'll look for a Chevy style D60 for the pass side pumpkin.

What are the drawbacks if I just use full width axles? Any thoughts appreciated. [EDIT]Used full width with H2 rims. They have 5.5 inches backspacing)[/EDIT]

Edited Dec 2010 For new readers. The first 10 to 15 pages are me asking lots of questions... and getting very great answers
  1. Went with 1 Tons- Ford '95 Dana 60 front and Sterling 1 Ton rear. It took months of deliberation to settle on what axles to use. After months of searching I found these two trucks and bought them both. Both 1 tons. : Donor truck and new daily driver
  2. Picked up a sweet 5.0: Engine- Explorer 5.0 It wasn't this engine- bait and switch but got everything in the end. Good poser pic though, eh?
  3. Then the carnage began: Let's strip that baby down!
  4. Had the axles and knew where I was going with tires- BIG!:thumbsup:So off to eBay I went for rims. I took another month or more figuring out if 17s or super cheap 16.5s were the way to go: I went with H2s that would need to get machined out for the larger Ford hubs- mine took a fair bit of work to do compared to others... I bought 17's so I could go with more back-spacing.H2 rims:
  5. Then the rest was just good old hard work for a while: Axle work Those axles got sandblasted 3 times. Man that was plenty of work!
  6. I bought Currie brackets. They took some grinding but were easier to use than building my own. I did have to do something different though with the front driver-side myself that turned out nicely.A bit of custom brackets work.
  7. Then a certified welder and tons and tons of pre-heating then a final third sandblasting: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/jims-new-hybrid-scrambler-build-tons-questions-coming-976744/index29.html#post9960583
  8. And more axle work: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/jims-new-hybrid-scrambler-build-tons-questions-coming-976744/index30.html#post9982530
  9. I basically spent 3 months through the summer on and off working on the geometry.
  10. Finally tires!! Woohoo!! 40" Goodyear MTRs with Kevlar
  11. Then brakes: Jim's brake setup Finally able to see how things fit in the rim.
  12. Then finally building a vehicle begins: Real building work!! And I get to see if all of my measuring an eye-ball engineering really allowed things to fit without rubbing. NO RUBBING!!
  13. Poser shots! poser
  14. Then brake bracket design and mock-up: Brake mock-up still happening.





  15. Want to use long monotubes in as close to zero lift as possible. Built my own bar-pin mounts and located them outward of the mounting plate on the frame and axle to effectively stretch the possible shock stroke: Shock bar pins.


  16. Finished the rear brakes- GM 3/4 ton 4x4 front calipers on the rear with E350 Frod cargo van disks: Rear brakes done.
  17. Finished the front brakes- stock Ford 1 ton calipers and disks: Front brakes done.
  18. 1 ton power brake capabilities for 40" rubber. Did a ton of shopping and looking around then found some smoking hot deals: Settled on dual diaphram booster and Vette master cylinder using YJ mounting bracket.
  19. Assembled those hot deals to see what fit: Parts assembled.
  20. De-greased, bead blasted old bracket, primed and painted everything: Parts together- waiting for chrome MC cover....

    Here's where I'm at now- June 16th, 2011:
    Building crossmembers and setting the driveline in place: Crossmembers


 
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#375 ·
So... those front spindles. I've had to whack away on smaller spindles before- Ford IFS F150- Dana44s I guess lots of times but these Dana 60s are another whole story.

I can see where the spindle flange has be pounded on before, and the spindle itself along the tube between the races already has hammer marks on it. It obviously has never been re-assembled with no-seize before. I've got one off and after lunch I'll add my marks to the other side.

I stopped in to Toms Differentials- he is just down the road in Idaho, and his shop/warehouse is impressive. GREAT prices, too. I'll be buying my 35 spline outer shafts from him.
 
#376 ·
Looking good, no you wont break a 35 spline carrier when you upgrade to the larger 35 spline stubs. I still run the factory carrier with a lockrite locker, no braekage yet. Even a few of the friends I run with have welded fronts and they yet to break them, so your safe.

I hate when peaple dont put the snap rings back on the stubs, it leave's that dust seal expossed to the eliments and lets all type of crap in your hubs.
When you upgrade to 35 spline make sure you get the snap rings or your back to were you started.

Jason.
 
#377 ·
OK, well the stub axles races are fine. The slingers were missing, the dirt seals doing nothing but the flat plastic chamfered thrust washers no. 58 were in and the no. 59 seals were in backwards, but no grit had gotten into the torrington bearings.



As the stub axles are OK I'm tempted to use them, but Tom even has said to run 35 spline outers if I'm running 39 tires... So- Jason?? What would you do? If I use the existing outer axles I'll have the wrong outer drive flanges or locking hubs for later when I do go to 35... Maybe I should just do it now.

 
#380 ·
For what its worth ive been running the same 30 spline stubs for over 5 years now and just this spring I broke one wheeling. So for me they lasted threw 3 231 T-case breakage and 2 twisted front drive shafts, yes thats asking alot out of a stock stub and chepoo Warn locking hubs.
But they did it and after it broke I put my spare 30 spline back in and I will be in the woods all day today beating the crap out of it.

Now will this work for you with a little stronger motor probally and of course I dont know your driving style.
I try to crawl every thing first, it that failed I would give it short burst of power, if that failed I would hold the throttle down right to the point I felt something would give.
Normally it was the 231 case, but now I have a 241 so thats probally why the stock stub poped, no more 231 fuse.

If money was not a huge factor then yes upgrade, if the budget is getting a little tight then run whats factory for now and watch the skinney peddle. But remember its not so much HP thats breaks axle's, its the sudden stop when they grab traction.

I just picked up a set of new Warn 35 spline drive flange's and some Yukon 1541 ( Chevy ) stubs. They might find there way into my Jeep before I do my fall run. Or I might install them in the rear as I'm doing rear steer for the Jeep:rolleyes:

As far as the ball joints, I feel the same way about them as I do king pins, if there tight leave them alone. I figure there going from supporting a one ton truck with a average 33" tire to a 1/4 ton Jeep with 39" tire's. The truck gave them more of a beating than the Jeep will. Keep an eye on them and they will be fine.
Do you think they were serviced in the past? I know its Hard to tell but one would assume if the outer C clip for the stubs were missing maybe there missing becasue they got done once all ready.

One more thing are going wih a locker in the front? If no then the stock stubs will be fine, just watch the wheel speed, well the sudden stop of wheel speed I should say:D

Jason.
 
#381 ·
Hi. The ball joints have all been changed at least once. These axles had 385,000 km on them when I pulled them. I haven't looked at the carrier yet. I'll open it up today but it has to have gone through a couple of inner diff seals... I'll do them, too. Yes, a locker will be going in the front. Also, my current locking hubs need changing so I think I'll do the 35 spline outers at the same time.

Have you seen the Mile Marker locking hubs? They look nice... I just read a review comparing them to the Warn Premiums and they cam out better than the Warns. I haven't seen the MM though so I don't know what to think about what one to buy.

I don't want an air operated locker up front. I have to start shopping for one. If I run drive flanges, and use the vehicle as a daily driver, too, I wonder how long i can go in time and distance between service intervals for the stub axle torrington bearings??

OK, I've just talked myself into drives flanges and 35 spine outers now rather than later. The locker ... shopping for one.

Rear steer?? Now that I have to see!:2thumbsup:
 
#382 ·
It wasn't until after I had re-read Jason's message that I realized that my stub axles were different. I went out and double checked... The outer axle ends do not have a snap-ring groove. What the #$%@?

Sooo.. my donor truck is a 1995 Ford F350. Anyone know what gives? The outer axle must float all over the place.

I don't know. Maybe I better go to the Ford dealership to find out what gives.:thumbdown:
 
#384 ·
I'm still a month (meaning two, probably) away from sitting the tub down on the frame. I've only talked to a couple of people about them and they both loved them. I'll know soon! I plan to polish it then to find some coating to clear it.:2thumbsup:
 
#385 ·
OK. Got into the big Sterling rear end. Gears are great- like new. Oh man those axles are huge :)

Here are the control arms again and the brackets... I opened up the rest of the CA boxes and discovered that I was short-shipped the front upper Johnny Joint x2.
Also, the rear lower brackets are all wrong and WAY too small. Bummer on that.


Emails sent off to Currie and now I suddenly can hurry up and wait for the brackets and JJs to arrive. I was going to do the rear first because it was easier... Not now. Stuck on the fronts, too. Maybe I can do cutting and fitting what I do have. That lower front driver CA mount is going to be hard to fit.
 
#386 ·
Hey Jim ya those 10.25 steerlings are some heavy hitters:D

Ive seen the use of NON snap rings on the newer fords, like what you have. Ive only run across a few without them. But I will say your new 35 spline stubs will have the ring grove on them so I would install it.

Make sure you tell who ever you buy the stubs for the applacation is a Ford. I would hate for them to sell you a Dana 70 stub intended for a Chevy/Dodge and then see you chop off the 5/8" of an inch to make it fit.

Remember Ford stubs are 11 3/8"s long and Chevy/Dodge are 12"s long. So the stock Dana 70 stubs will work on a Chevy/Dodge without modification but for a Ford they need to be chopped down.

Flange's and the use of a NON air locker are going to be a little werd on the road handleing wise. I drive from trail to trail with my Jeep and I see a little pavement, with the front locking hubs broke in the lock position and a lockrite locker it steers funny.
So I can imaging what flange's and a locker would feel like on the road probally the same way.

Are you keeping the stock 60 parts as spare's? If not then drop me a PM for a cost on the stubs, I got plenty of hubs, just need another Ford stub. Me I would keep them but I figure I would throw it out there and see.

Jason.
 
#387 ·
Hey Jim ya those 10.25 steerlings are some heavy hitters:D
Yeah, I'm glad I went with 1 tons. The Sterling will look wicked under there:drool:
Ive seen the use of NON snap rings on the newer fords, like what you have. Ive only run across a few without them. But I will say your new 35 spline stubs will have the ring grove on them so I would install it.

Make sure you tell who ever you buy the stubs for the applacation is a Ford. I would hate for them to sell you a Dana 70 stub intended for a Chevy/Dodge and then see you chop off the 5/8" of an inch to make it fit.

Remember Ford stubs are 11 3/8"s long and Chevy/Dodge are 12"s long. So the stock Dana 70 stubs will work on a Chevy/Dodge without modification but for a Ford they need to be chopped down.
Thanks, I'll be sure to say FORD!
Flange's and the use of a NON air locker are going to be a little werd on the road handleing wise. I drive from trail to trail with my Jeep and I see a little pavement, with the front locking hubs broke in the lock position and a lockrite locker it steers funny.
So I can imaging what flange's and a locker would feel like on the road probally the same way.
I'm looking at an OX Dana 60 locker with a cable-engage. I haven't read much yet about where the cable attaches to the diff housing. Do you know where it goes through?
Are you keeping the stock 60 parts as spare's? If not then drop me a PM for a cost on the stubs, I got plenty of hubs, just need another Ford stub. Me I would keep them but I figure I would throw it out there and see.

Jason.
Yeah, I thought I'd hold on to them as spares with my old ugly manual hubs... sorry.:)

Hey- front brake dust shields. Should I put them back in behind the spindle when I re-assemble or just leave them out. They won't close off the space anymore uning the new H2 rims anyways...??

Also, I'll be yanking the Dana 60 carrier from the front housing to clean out the tubes.... What could I use to ram/spin through the tubes?

Thanks
 
#392 ·
Thanks and thanks for the link. Downloading now. That's what I thought I read- through the front diff cover. That may not work for me. Things are going to be real tight down there. Also- I read that something exposed was made of plastic on the mechanism and could break- but I'm not sure.

I do like the idea of a manual locker- not air or electric. We have tons of humidity at times here. Electric doesn't worry me, but I was told the electric lockers couldn't take 39s... Maybe that was just the Elocker- can't remember what Tom at Tom's Diffs was refering to.
 
#390 ·
Dump the dust sheilds, they only trap rocks and junk in there.

I have a round wire brush that was used to clean out smoke traps or a chimeny. I cut it down to just fit into the tube of a 60. On the end of the wire brush is a metal stem or a handle, I attach that end to a hand drill and send it down the axle tube's.

Get new inner axle seals to, with that much mileage on the trucks I bet the seals will leak.

Jason.
 
#394 ·
Dump the dust sheilds, they only trap rocks and junk in there.

I have a round wire brush that was used to clean out smoke traps or a chimeny. I cut it down to just fit into the tube of a 60. On the end of the wire brush is a metal stem or a handle, I attach that end to a hand drill and send it down the axle tube's.

Get new inner axle seals to, with that much mileage on the trucks I bet the seals will leak.

Jason.
Dust shields gone.:thumbsup: I'll cut down the wire brushes on one of mine and go for. Thanks.:2thumbsup:
 
#395 ·
Burned out my last grinder with 1 bracket to go ;-(

Well- made a mess of my shop today. Went through 2 1/2 6 inch zip disks and got all but the last bracket of 7 or 8 removed. The Canadian Tire angle grinder bit the dust and no more brushes... Here are some pics of the carnage.:thumbsup:



Last bracket-
 
#397 ·
OK, I splurged and bought the $59.00 Hitachi angle grinder. Lots of power for such a little guy. Finished removing the last bracket left on the front diff, ground down all of the debris, and flapper wheeled it. Next I'll drag out both diffs for a final sand blasting to clean up the front knuckles that are staying on and to give the same texture to all of the ground down areas.

Some eye candy pics of my progress- two ready-to-build 1 ton axles!! First I'll spin out the garbage in the front axle tubes. Then the new bracketry gets tacked on- the lower front driver side will be a charmer. A bunch of patrs washing in a solvent tub. Seal replacements and back together they both go.

After that a tough industrial grey color for paint. Can anyone suggest a tough paint? Thanks in advance.



 
#399 ·
A friend of mine showed me a trick not long ago when painting. After scuffing them up really good, take a torch and go over the metal and you can actually see water evaporating off the metal. Then take some etching primer to it and finally paint. Pick your poison but rustoleum does pretty good. I wouldn't use bed liner. By the way....looking good!:tea:
 
#401 ·
Well- I had a part of the day and started grinding the rear brackets to fit the bigger axle tubes. Next, I pulled out the mig and nothing but splatter. Turns out the CO2 valve in the handle had broken... bought it at Liquidation World... Fixed the valve and voila- nice welds.

Started with the rear and only had interference with the original brake union/breather block with the upper control arm/track bar mount. I'll have to weld it shut, drill in another and tap it.













The big rear Ford Sterling clears everything- the fuel tank (that I have relocated) and the track bar mount on the frame- great stuff.

The front end is mocked up a bit and it is doeable but is going to be a bear.

I did a bit of trig to ruff-in the pinion angle to use a CV rear drive shaft. I don't know if you can see the pinion pointing up on the rear end.

The front axle looks like with some careful planning it will clear the trackbar mount on the frame and the front driveshaft will miss the frame and lower control arm frame mount.

Got a throat infection and may take Sunday off...
 
#402 ·
Time to find 4 coils

I've got the suspension setup mostly sorted out and have questions about what coil characteristics. First some pics:

This is the front end at full stuff. I only have 3 "inches up-travel from my desired ride height. The trackbar mount clears the diff and the driveshaft does not interfeer with the frame/lower control arm mount.


Here is the rear-end with desired ride height. I have 9 inches between the rear coil buckets.


Here is the Sterling up to 6 inches (actually frame down...love the hoist) between the buckets. The trackbar mount clears my forward fuel tank crossmember so the rear can compress much much higher if I want.


The clearance at my "normal" ride height between the front-end coil buckets is 15 inches and bumpstop at 12 inches. What coil should I look at for the front I wonder??

The rear coil must compress to a "normal" loaded-ride-height to 9 inches. What coils for it I wonder?

I'll look around for a TJ to measure, but right now don't have access to find out what is normally seen for clearances and fit.

Thanks everyone for any ideas. Bring 'em on!:thumbsup:
 
#405 ·
Just got dualtjs' MOOG coil spring spreadsheet

I emailed dualtjs last night asking for his spreadsheet again. Seems my filing system isn't as great as I thought it was...

Already waiting in my email this am. Thanks dualtjs. The spreadsheet is awesome.:highfive::highfive::thumbsup:
 
#407 ·
go big or go home!! is this thing running yet. lol j/k looking good so far
 
#408 ·
Hey there Amos. :2thumbsup: How are you doing? I've read on another thread you have another 5.0 swap underway. Are you finding time to sleep, too? :D

Oh yeah- It's running!! Not...:rofl: I should have the front CA brackets mocked up today in cardboard and steel plate cut (the Currie front lowers are another set of rears... so not usable in their current form) and tacked in another day or two. I'm thinking of integrating a mechanical attachement into the driver-side front bracketry to supplement the welding. I'm going onto the pumpkin but my Mobile Welder fellow has said not to worry- the brackets will be there forever when he is finished... Dunno- still deciding.

I was going to use 38s or 39s to assist in the final gearing using one of my NP435s but the Goodyear MTRs seem to come in 40s, not 39s... They are labelled "Not For Highway Use". Anyone know why?

Right now the bottom of my frame rails at ride height is 21.5 inches. That is if I go to 39 inch diameter and who knows what the Goodyear MTR true diameter and loaded will work out to.

So I guess at this point I'm going on the big side with 40s.:cool:
 
#410 · (Edited)
Now fine tuning axle placement and eye candy

I've now dialed in the rear axle a 1/2 or so and will cut off and re-position the upper driver's rear CA and trackbar mount. I have it tacked a little too far to the rear and my thread count on the arms is too excessive.

I'm looking to pull in the axles to be as close as possible to perfect geometry wise and then if I need to adjust (from perfect...) I'll have plenty of thread and clearance to move stuff around.

You can see uneven thread counts on the uppers. The lower may get tweaked on the driver side rear, too.

Here, you can see the old breather port and brake T mount on the rear axle. When I pull the upper bracket forward I may have room to screw in a plug then weld/grind it flush. Either way- it gets plugged. I'll put a new breather through the former ABS sensor hole above the tone ring on the carrier.

The front driver lower CA brackets I made up and tacked in place. Great fit and spot on the Jeep OEM numbers when I'm done.

Another front lower shot. Maybe the setup will be adjusted and ready for the Mobile Welder this Monday/Tuesday!!!:highfive::highfive:

The front driver's upper tacked in place and waiting to be removed and pulled reward 3/4 of and inch to preserve Jeep OEM bracket mounting and Ford pinion/caster. The Ford caster on my daily driver 1 ton measures out a 5.5 or so positive. I'll set the caster to 6 or 7 positive on this unit.

The last shot. This shows the front setup from a different angle. Never enough photos! I used a Currie spare rear lower here. The setback is farther rearward due to the driver-side lower mount going outside the thick pumpkin tube sleeve.

This bracket fit perfectly on the Dana 60 after one tap with a BFH on the anvil.
I should finish my passenger front upper today sometime. Gota pay attention to our 10 month old doodle named Duke- yes named after John Wayne. Who could be cooler??

I've got the frame ride-height lowered another 1/2 inch. I may go with this height but I haven't checked to see if the Goodyear 40s will sit under the rear aluminum tub edges without altering the fender wells. It will be easy enough to do that later.
 
#414 ·
Thanks, Now I can start measuring about how to tuck that engine in there... Did you keep your air conditioning pump and the oil cooler in place? It'll be close down there. Same with the steering shaft. Could you snap some pics of clearances down there?? Please!
 
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