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Unread 03-10-2010, 08:36 AM   #16
mthom5436
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1980 CJ5 
 
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Location: peachtree city ga
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"Starter Relay" is that the same as "starter solenoid"?

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Unread 03-10-2010, 08:44 AM   #17
LT1CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwscj7 View Post
I wired it exactly as the old one. Positive lead from Battery on left and lead to starter on right. The 2 small wires are tide together with a rubber grommet thing so they could not be crossed.
I've heard that one before.
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Unread 03-10-2010, 08:56 AM   #18
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthom5436 View Post
"Starter Relay" is that the same as "starter solenoid"?
Yes.
The Starter Relay is mis-labeled (misnomer) as a 'Solenoid' on your starting system in most cases.

Ford starters use a remote relay for the high current,
The mechanical movement to move the starter drive into the ring gear is in the starter motor housing, so the gadget on the fender is technically a 'Relay', Just a really big one.

While GM starters have a Solenoid built into the side of the starter that both activates the high current switch AND throws out the starter drive gear into the ring gear.
It produces mechanical movement, so it's a 'Solenoid'...

Not a big deal, but since I rebuilt starters & alternators for about 10 years, I had to get the differences right in my head when talking to the engineers/parts suppliers...
You use the 'Wrong' term with them, the engineer geeks blow a gasket and get lost in the conversation... and/or you get the wrong part!
--------------------------------------

A relay is an electrical device that simply is a big switch for the higher current loads the starer will draw.

A 'Solenoid' will convert one type of mechanical or electrical energy into another form of force or motion.
Like an air solenoid moving a locking pin,
Or a starter solenoid moving the starter drive gear out to the flywheel.

The little gadget on your fender is technically a 'Relay',
It simply takes low current to switch 'ON' the higher current for the starter motor.
--------------------------------------

It's all esoteric, doesn't mean anything to the mechanic, and you can say 'Solenoid' and still be 'Correct' in mechanics terms,
But it will cause confusion when dealing with electrical suppliers.

I have an electronics background, so I say 'Relay' since there isn't any mechanical work being done from the electrical input.

Same reason I say 'Engine' instead of 'Motor'.
The 'Motor' is hanging on the side of the 'Engine',
And electric starting motor turns the Internal Combustion Engine over so it will start.

Motors are self starting, usually air (pneumatic), Electrical or Hydraulic,
Engines are NOT self starting, they take external forces to get them going (Starter Motors)
There are other differences, and the two can be interchanged and everyone still knows what you are talking about,
But with an electrical background, I still refer to Motors & Engines differently.

Sorry for the confusion.

What you are looking for is power at the 'Blue' wire when the key is in the 'Start' position,
And the 'Blue' wire connected to the 'S' terminal.

If your small terminals aren't marked,
Then you can use a Jumper wire from the battery cable terminal to the small terminals.
The one that makes the 'Solenoid' activate is the 'S' terminal, and the 'Blue' wire should connect to it.

The other small terminal is the 'I' (Ignition) terminal,
An it powers up the ignition coil with a full 12 volts when cranking the engine for faster starts.

Connecting to it with power from the battery cable will do NOTHING since that's an open circuit when the wire isn't attached and the 'Solenoid' isn't activated.
You won't hurt a thing by testing with a 'Jumper' wire since it's an open circuit anyway.

Last edited by JeepHammer; 03-10-2010 at 09:09 AM..
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Unread 03-10-2010, 11:56 AM   #19
mthom5436
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Thank you Jeep Hammer. I just wanted to make sure that I am running the correct tests one the correct parts.
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Unread 03-10-2010, 07:51 PM   #20
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthom5436 View Post
Thank you Jeep Hammer. I just wanted to make sure that I am running the correct tests one the correct parts.
Sorry man, I only speak English and I don't do that very well!
Kind of a 'Hill Billy' version of English...

This is what you have to put up with when the info comes from a 'Hillbilly Geek'... Or is that an oxymoron?
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Unread 03-10-2010, 08:30 PM   #21
JessesJeep
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do you have fiberglass fenders? The starter relay that i have uses the mounting bracket as a ground, so if its mounted to the fiberglass it wont make a ground, also the new paint could be causing it to make a poor ground you could check to see if you have voltage at the ground and if you do its an open circuit
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Unread 03-10-2010, 09:02 PM   #22
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JessesJeep View Post
do you have fiberglass fenders? The starter relay that i have uses the mounting bracket as a ground, so if its mounted to the fiberglass it wont make a ground, also the new paint could be causing it to make a poor ground you could check to see if you have voltage at the ground and if you do its an open circuit
Could be, just like it could be he got a starter relay for an automatic transmission from '80 forward with the grounding lug on the bottom.
(Good deal for glass fender guys!)

That's why I told him to do the jumper wire to small 'S' terminal test...
If it engages, that means the starter relay is grounded.

If it doesn't engage the relay, we have to start looking for other 'Issues'...
Like no ground to the relay,
Or wrong relay for the application, ect.

Won't know anything until he does the tests and reports back...
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Unread 03-11-2010, 06:26 AM   #23
pwscj7
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Here is the silinoid. Hopefully the photo fill show now. I have power on the left side at all times. The small terminal on the left has power when the ignition is turned to run. But I never get power from the right large terminal.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 06:36 AM   #24
Mike Romain
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You look like you are missing one of the fuse link wires.

The big bolt on the left should have the battery cable on it and a fuse link wire to the alternator and a second fuse link wire to the ignition and fuse panel. I only see one fuse link wire there. Is the other one dropped down low there?

Yours wouldn't be the first one that has had one loop connector fall down and get missed when putting it back together.

Your solenoid looks to have an I and an S marked on it by the small side posts wires. The blue wire needs to be on the S post and I think it is.

The blue wire on the small post needs to have power when the key is in 'start'. This blue wire fires the solenoid to send the power to the starter via the right side big cable. The blue wire gets it's power from the key, but more importantly from the missing fuse link wire I think maybe...
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Unread 03-11-2010, 06:42 AM   #25
JessesJeep
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I would say it's the ground since you get power from the key switch, try running a jumper wire from the mounting bracket to the negitive on the battery also by run you mean when you are trying to crank the engine
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Unread 03-11-2010, 06:52 AM   #26
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JessesJeep View Post
I would say it's the ground since you get power from the key switch, try running a jumper wire from the mounting bracket to the negitive on the battery
I haven't seen where he says he has power from the keyswitch to the small blue wire when the switch is in start, he has danced around it?

Even just putting power to this blue wire post will tell if the solenoid functions or not the engine should turn over.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 03-11-2010, 07:00 AM   #27
JessesJeep
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Yes that would work as long as the relay has a good ground and I hope by run he means as he is trying to start the engine because if it got power at all time than that's another problem
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Unread 03-11-2010, 07:01 AM   #28
JeepHammer
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AGAIN...

That's why I said to do some testing.

Make a small jumper wire,
Jump from the battery cable terminal to each of the small terminals.

The 'S' terminal should engage the solenoid, testing it for both function and 'Ground'.
If it works when 'hot wired' with a jumper wire,
Then there isn't an issue with the solenoid.

If you hit the 'I' terminal first, it's not an issue since there wire isn't hooked up to anything giving it power will hurt.

If the gauges are working, lights are working, then the fusible link hooked up is the one going to the ignition switch.
Early on, the OP reported the gauges were working...
But I guess anything is possible.

If the solenoid works with the Jumper wire,
Then you need to use a test light to see if the ignition switch is getting power to the 'Blue' wire when the key switch is in the 'Start' position.

Since the testing STILL HASN'T BEEN DONE,
Any further speculation is shooting blanks in the dark...
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:56 PM   #29
pwscj7
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Red/white wire on I terminal has power when the key is on, Does not matter what position.

No power to blue wire in any key position including starting.

Jumer wire to S terminal does turn engine

Jumper wire from Negative on battery to the base of the solinoid does nothing.

I swapped the wires to make sure they were correct and as soon as I touched the key the starter started and could not be controlled by key.

Mike, I do have a black wire that is hanging that has the same boot type as the small wires. There is mud in the connector and does not look like it has been used in a while. Where would it connect if it should be there. I or S ??

All gauges and lights do work

Metal fenders no Fiberglass

Sorry for the delay in testing I had to buy a new light tester.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:35 PM   #30
CO64CJ5
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Location: Littleton, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwscj7 View Post
. . .
No power to blue wire in any key position including starting.

Jumper wire to S terminal does turn engine
. . .
Well, there you go. The blue wire needs to stay on the S terminal, the starter relay is working fine, the ground is fine, and the fusible links (missing or not) are not causing this problem.

You need to find out why there's nothing on the blue wire when you turn the switch to "start". If you can get to the switch, check whether you get power on the "start" terminal when you turn the switch. If so, check whether the blue wire is connected to that terminal. If so, you need to find where the blue wire is broken. Maybe a connector somewhere?

If you are not getting power out of the switch when you turn to the "start" position, there's something wrong with the switch.
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