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Unread 03-02-2010, 07:53 PM   #16
Dngrs1
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1979 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohave Valley,AZ
Posts: 804
Well I had a productive day, today. Mowed the grass, battled the weeds and relocated the CDI box to the passenger side fender well. This enabled me to shorten the wires considerably, including the trigger wires for the distributor. All of the connections are soldered/shrinktubed. The trigger wires for the dizzy are twisted and away from any other wires. Jeep started right up and idled fine; revved fine. Took it out for a test drive and it seems to run better.
Despite your "nagging", Fred, redoing all of the connections and making sure they were right seems to have improved the running of my engine.
NOW, the issue at hand is---why doesn't the engine run when I hook up the HEI module? I had it start (cough, sputter, cough, sputter) but not run. Do I need to adjust the timing to run with the HEI module? Perhaps I need to check the rotor phase of the distributor? With the HEI module hooked up I have spark from the coil, spark on all plugs, but it won't run.
And yes, all of the connections are solid and battery ground is connected to the block and there is a dedicated ground from the battery (for all ground connections) on the firewall.
Thanks for all your input thus far. I know I will figure this out, eventually, with your help.

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Unread 03-02-2010, 08:13 PM   #17
n00bie
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1986 CJ7 
 
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You're running a CDI box with the HEI modual in place? Usually that doesn't work ever. The CDI box takes over the modual's job.
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Unread 03-02-2010, 10:14 PM   #18
Fjguercio
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1978 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnsville, MN
Posts: 2,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
The trigger wires for the dizzy are twisted and away from any other wires. Jeep started right up and idled fine; revved fine. Took it out for a test drive and it seems to run better. .
Good for you... past sales eng for connectors and packaging for several years and 30 yrs on electronics. When you mentioned over heated melted connector issues.... it was a big flag... good flag to ck anyway and 70% of the nutters could be improved so so. So good

When you make this change to Igntion... you need to adjust your igniton to 6 or close what you feel is best. Then adjust your carb for the time and improved spark energy. The drive and see how it goes and adj carb if any flat spots and what works best. Write it Down... Then adj your time in 1 deg increments from 3 to 8 and see what you like best. Also make not of how well or not well things start when you get to the 6,8 deg initial advance. The old duraspark has like a -6 deg subtraction on start up and i ts a nice feature you will not longer have with the CDI or H modual. I would say after this process you will get another 10-15% ... yes it is necessary

You now have a MultiSpark ignition... that is 6 sparks, much higher voltage applied to the coil, and 20 deg of rotation / spark. This is a big change... one of the best changes you can do for any engine. You carb jets and set up could be lean for this new CDI. So after you get your best adjustments.... ck you plugs . I have suggestions and pics of plug reading on the Weber 34 Tune thread. When i changed to CDI my settings/jets were too lean and needed bigger jets. FYI.

Now it runs time to tune it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
NOW, the issue at hand is---why doesn't the engine run when I hook up the HEI module? I had it start (cough, sputter, cough, sputter) but not run. Do I need to adjust the timing to run with the HEI module? Perhaps I need to check the rotor phase of the distributor? With the HEI module hooked up I have spark from the coil, spark on all plugs, but it won't run. .
as posted prior you may have over heated and failed your H modual... It was ready to fire during your testing , never fired, and was getting hot. No heatsink paste makes it even hotter. There are H Modual test but I do not have them on file.... John Strenk might know if you pm him. Or just try a new H modual I think you fired it or you have issue with fire signal.

I would get your CDI running better first.... The H modual will need a retime and adj of the carb if you want to optimize that operation. The H modual will put a much lower voltage, fire once vs the CDI higher voltage and 5-6 full fires up to 3000 rpms and higher rpms will still get full fire voltage and the H modual cannot do that. So NET... the CDI is far superior and you will need to do the carb and time again.

So.... complete the CDI process... write it down
If you want to do the H modual too... the after CDI start that do the same process and write it down.
Then you will need to do the CDI and the carb and time again.

You have a 1979 or 78 you have the larger mech advance slots and should not have issue with the reluctor location like the computer versions. Unless you are using parts that we have not discussed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
all of the connections are solid and battery ground is connected to the block and there is a dedicated ground from the battery (for all ground connections) on the firewall.
Thanks for all your input thus far. I know I will figure this out, eventually, with your help.
Grounds are good we should all do them... did you ground your head, and use copper antiseize and dielectric grease too???

Your welcome
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Unread 03-02-2010, 10:22 PM   #19
Fjguercio
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1978 CJ7 
 
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Location: Burnsville, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bie View Post
You're running a CDI box with the HEI modual in place? Usually that doesn't work ever. The CDI box takes over the modual's job.
The H modual is a test fixture and back up ignition. He is trouble shooting his CDI hook up. Improved the distributor to CDI signal hook ups and its better.
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Unread 03-03-2010, 11:20 AM   #20
Dngrs1
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Th H module is mounted to an aluminum heat sink (from a broken power supply from work), used heat sink compound. It never got hot as I touch it to see.
*Note to self--ground the head.
It's kind of a shame, though, I had thought the HEI module would be a good "back up ignition". Doesn't make a lot of sense if I have to readjust/ time the ignition to make it work. Kind of impractical on the trail. I was hoping it would be plug and go. I guess I will just carry the HEI dizzy for a "back-up" ignition. Although I have to time it after install, it can be done by ear.
There is a test for HEI modules in my Motors manual and the module checks out fine. Like I said, I get spark on all plugs but evidently not at the right time.
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Unread 03-03-2010, 12:20 PM   #21
cj5752
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If timing is now within specs you will not have to readjust timing for the H module to work. You are using the 4 pin HEI module? Check your wiring and double check. This is a very simple set and work great. This is what I use as my primary ignition. Make sure you are getting a full 12v to the coil. If you have a resistor wire it will not work.
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Unread 03-03-2010, 05:54 PM   #22
JeepHammer
Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
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Sounds like a wiring glitch...
When you installed the HEI module,
Is the 'B' terminal receiving power when cranking?

Some of the Jeep ignition switches do NOT power up the 'B' terminal wire (old coil wire) when cranking.
Run a 'Jumper' wire from starter relay 'I' terminal to 'B' terminal on the module and see if it starts while cranking.

You can also use a test light to see if 'B' terminal is getting power when cranking...
The jumper will solve the 'Issue' if that is it.
--------------------------------------

Trigger has to be working or CDI wouldn't fire.
You can rule the trigger out as the 'Issue' for now.

You can do an ohms test of the trigger stator, between the two parallel terminals, you should show between 400 & 800 Ohms, with about 625 being 'Normal',

Then do one each of the parallel terminals to ground on the distributor housing.
The tests to ground should show an open circuit.
If you show any current flow, the trigger is grounded out internally.
------------------------------------

CDI 'Small Red' wire should be the old coil positive wire, and it's getting enough current to activate the module during cranking, but that's not always enough to power up an HEI module...
It takes a VERY slight amount of current in that wire to power 'On' the CDI module,
While it takes about 3 amps to power up an HEI module.

Putting the 'Jumper' in should deliver enough current to the HEI module while cranking the engine to Drive the HEI module.
And that will rule out power supply to the HEI.

The 'Jumper' wire is fine to leave in the circuit/connector when you replace it with the CDI when it's fixed, won't hurt a thing.
-----------------------------------------

I would also check 'Ground' to the HEI module.
The ground is the metal ringed mounting screw closest to the 'C' terminal.

You SHOULD NOT have to change any timing between modules, they should all be 'Direct Trigger', meaning no timing delay, that would effect trigger times, so they should all run the engine at idle.

It's EASY to test an HEI module when you install like this,
Simply connect your test light lead to battery POSITIVE,
Unhook the connector from the 'C' (Coil) terminal, and probe the 'C' terminal of the module,
And when cranking, it *SHOULD* flash.

If it doesn't 'Flash' when you have test light hooked to 'Power' when cranking,
The module isn't getting power/ground or it's fried.
Since you ARE getting signal from the distributor, we KNOW that part is working.

Make sure none of your terminal connections is grounding out to the heat sink! That has been a problem for some guys doing this...

Also, the discount stores will test your HEI modules for free,
You just need to give them an application, like '79 Chevy Impala or Corvette so they can find the correct card for connection to the tester.
(makes the twit think you have a corvette too!)
---------------------------------------

I switch between the CDI and HEI modules regularly with no issues,
But the HEI module DID need a jumper in my Jeep, the CDI did not.

One other thing is,
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if BOTH the HEI modules were 'Bad'.
The cheap ones from the discount store are often bad out of the box,
And if your first one was shot, it's REAL EASY to get a dead one out of the box these days!

Last edited by JeepHammer; 03-03-2010 at 06:10 PM..
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Unread 03-03-2010, 11:25 PM   #23
Fjguercio
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1978 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnsville, MN
Posts: 2,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
Th H module is mounted to an aluminum heat sink (from a broken power supply from work), used heat sink compound. It never got hot as I touch it to see.
*Note to self--ground the head.
It's kind of a shame, though, I had thought the HEI module would be a good "back up ignition". Doesn't make a lot of sense if I have to readjust/ time the ignition to make it work. Kind of impractical on the trail. I was hoping it would be plug and go. I guess I will just carry the HEI dizzy for a "back-up" ignition. Although I have to time it after install, it can be done by ear.
There is a test for HEI modules in my Motors manual and the module checks out fine. Like I said, I get spark on all plugs but evidently not at the right time.
We are missing each other on this a bit..... If you want to evaluate the IGNITIONS and see what works better. The carb and time should be tweeked. The CDI will far outperform your Hei Modual or the DuraSpark Igntion..... is just a better product/ignition. I would also guess with the multiple spark, higher voltage, full voltage for every spark the CDI will get a better burn... for max benefit. The carb, jets, time should be set for the CDI.

I would expect the H modual to be a bit richer but work fine. As back up or test fine..... If want to evaluate the CDI, Dura, H modual.... they would all need to be tweeked or set up.... then driven for some time, record your mileage, record your rpms, how well idles and accerates, .... that kind stuff.

If you want the H modual for trail back up, or for this test process no reason to do the carb and time work. That is past the CDI tune work you are doing or will do.

Good luck,
Fred




I followed JH advise on my ignition and have DuraSpark for my back up and it sits on the drivers fender. When I upgraded to the CDI my permorance numbers were better.... but I was lean, needed to increase my jets. I tweeked everthing and wrote it all down. That makes the next tune up much easier. I know the time will be 6 deg -+1, and the carb screw settings are written down.
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Unread 03-03-2010, 11:42 PM   #24
Fjguercio
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1978 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnsville, MN
Posts: 2,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
Note to self--ground the head.
.
The CDI puts out more volts, 6 full fires, and the spark needs a place to go. The go path is a good ground.... I see you gigglle but this could be significant. Use the copper antizeise and the dilectric grease... you cap contact surfaces looked dry for example

Let us know how its going.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 05:01 AM   #25
Dngrs1
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohave Valley,AZ
Posts: 804
Update.
I seemed to have solved the acceleration/ power problem. I found the original carb from the Jeep, in my garage (I thought I turned it in for a core). After close inspection, except for being dirty and nasty, it was actually in better condition than the "rebuilt" I bought from A-Zone. I cleaned it up and installed new parts and put it on the engine and Vroom! I got a smooth running engine and power when accelerating!
Seems as though the "rebuilt" I bought from A-Zone was a mishmash of different years BBD's. The throttle shaft bushings were wore out as well; after only one year! Anyway, runs well, on the CDI ignition box. The H module only fires the plugs every second or third commpression stroke. No wonder it won't start. I am going to put in a grounding block, to tie all grounds to a solid grounding source, including the head, to see if that helps. Previously I had secured a ground wire to the sheet metal and attached ground wires to different parts of sheet metal.
I'll keep ya' posted.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 06:35 PM   #26
Fjguercio
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1978 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnsville, MN
Posts: 2,814
Good for you!!

Our snow is melting and 6 days of rain taking out 1 ft of snow pack. Took the CJ around the block the other day with fellow jeeper that stoped for some help. Stored since OCT and started 1st touch of key, high idled, Mid Idled, the slow idle for warm up. Trouble shooting his so took it around the block. Came back and roads almost dry so, start it up again, and down the road... no hesitation, just went.... he like it. I was happy too.... longest I have stored and just started perfect.

I hope you CDI serves you this well.

40 Deg heat wave today... What are you 75?

Here is pic of mine. Someday may get a SW Jeep... lot less rust down there then MidWest.
This is after Labor Day and its had a bath since then.
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Unread 03-13-2010, 04:47 AM   #27
Dngrs1
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohave Valley,AZ
Posts: 804
It's actually been in the low 60's, recently. Cold north wind too. I don't like cold. My fingers go numb below 60. I suffered cold injuries when in Korea in the 80's and I think my fingers and toes are very cold sensitive as a result. We've had nearly 5 in.'s of rain this year (average ANNUAL rainfall is 7"). Next week should be in the 80's, maybe 90!
Since the Jeep is now running well, with the CDI, the HEI module project has taken a back burner to the J-10 project. I will be tinkering with it from time to time as I would like to get it to work. But the higher priority has fallen to the J-10. I have Chevy Cavalier seats in the CJ; they are going in the J-10. I got some Ford Aerostar van seats to install into the CJ. The J-10 is also getting electric windows, mirrors and door locks and with the wiring job at hand I decided to clean up the rats nest of wires under the dash. Come to think of it, I should probably take some pictures and post the van seats install into a CJ here. I should also take some pictures of my HEI module wiring (I think you requested that earlier) so you can look it over.
Multitasking is a b***h sometimes.
Oh yeah, I have to get the boat ready, it's time to go fishing
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Unread 03-13-2010, 08:32 AM   #28
JeepHammer
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1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
It's actually been in the low 60's, recently. Cold north wind too. I don't like cold. My fingers go numb below 60. I suffered cold injuries when in Korea in the 80's and I think my fingers and toes are very cold sensitive as a result.
I served in Korea in the very early 80s, on the Imjin River.
What a miserable, nasty place to be stationed!
I don't know what I did in a previous life to deserve a duty station like Korea, but it MUST have been really bad!

About 2/3 of our unit had frost bite at one time or another.
We sure weren't the well equipped Marines/Army they have now!

I broke a collar bone over there, and it still hurts when the weather changes 30 years later!
They say I'm nuts, but I think the cold kept it from healing correctly.
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Unread 03-13-2010, 12:48 PM   #29
Dngrs1
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohave Valley,AZ
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No kidding? Me----'83-'84 B 2/17FA, Camp Pelham 1/9 Inf. FIST

Last edited by Dngrs1; 03-13-2010 at 01:00 PM..
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