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Unread 02-20-2009, 07:59 PM   #121
JeepHammer
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1973 CJ5 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioTex View Post
What do you mean by running extra timing? Advanced or retarded? I'm going to assume advanced (as more deg. BTDC) correct?
If so, how much are we talking?
Thanks in advance (no pun intended )...
Once you take control of the distributor from the timing computer,
And you spread the terminals apart so the 'Advance' doesn't wind up firing the wrong spark plug terminal,

You can add a little bit of initial timing to the mix, and see how it works for you...
If that goes well, no problems and no 'Dead Spots' or bogs during part throttle driving, then add a couple of more degrees and see what that does...

Sneak up on how much timing your engine will handle correctly...
Remember, before if your ignition added timing, it would often jump to the wrong terminal, or the 'Emissions Cops' would take you to task...

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Unread 02-20-2009, 09:28 PM   #122
Old4X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
The 'Computer Years' had a VERY short range of advance built into the 'Low End' of the RPM range...
Usually around 5 degrees, where without computer you would have up to 18 degrees...

This would let your distributor back the timing down quite a bit at low RPM, or when cranking the engine...

Have you considered getting a distributor from 'Pre Computer' years and using it?

If I understand you correctly, the computer distributors have a limited centrifugal advance capability.

I have a computer distributor (nuttered and waiting on the big cap upgrade mentioned in this thread), there is no longer a computer in my jeep.

I looked up rebuilt distributors and it appears Cardone only lists one reman 258/4.2 motorcraft distributor. Are these all with the computer advance curve parts?

In one of your earlier posts you detailed adjusting the curve springs and limit stops. Is this what I need to do to get full benifit from my modded distributor? I would prefer to go with a reman, but will just adjust mine if the reman is set up like mine as far as the advance mechanism goes.
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Unread 02-20-2009, 10:00 PM   #123
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old4X View Post
If I understand you correctly, the computer distributors have a limited centrifugal advance capability.

I have a computer distributor (nuttered and waiting on the big cap upgrade mentioned in this thread), there is no longer a computer in my jeep.

I looked up rebuilt distributors and it appears Cardone only lists one reman 258/4.2 motorcraft distributor. Are these all with the computer advance curve parts?

In one of your earlier posts you detailed adjusting the curve springs and limit stops. Is this what I need to do to get full benifit from my modded distributor? I would prefer to go with a reman, but will just adjust mine if the reman is set up like mine as far as the advance mechanism goes.
If you saw the thread on ReCurve with the springs and such, then you know the centrifugal advance slots on the 'Computer Years' were only 3.5 to 7.5 degrees of advance,



And the advance head slots in the '78 to '82 ('81 in CA.) had up to 18 degrees of advance available...

The ONLY way to know is to lift the trigger/advance plate and have a look, see which one you have...
OR,
To buy the timing tape for the balancer and map your advance before you start any changes, like I've always recommended you do!
------------------------

Computer years will have 3.5, 5.5 or 7.5 (degrees) next to the slots,

NON-COMPUTER advance heads will have 13 to 18 (Degree) slots in the advance head limiting stops...

You may have to try a couple of distributors from the 'Discount' stores, but you pay for one, the rest are 'Free' until you get what you want...

AND,
If you have one now with large advance (meaning someone has plugged a reman in there before you got it)
I'd keep a couple of parts before I sent it back as a core!

One would be the advance head if it were a big advance,
Another would be the advance heat clip, which is a tiny wire clip that gets lost almost immediately when you go to work on things!
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Unread 02-21-2009, 06:01 PM   #124
Tshark299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
The two bolded statements lead me to believe you are running the factory timing computer...

If you had done the stand alone HEI (HEI Hybrid) or 'Nutter Bypass',
The ignition timing would be a direct read at curb idle,
(with vacuum disconnected)

As it is, I'm betting on the 'Stealth HEI' with the computer still hooked up...
And you will need to tell me if I'm correct or not...
I've done the nutter bypass, so the factory computer should not be influencing my timing. I did the Nutter bypass after installing the Weber carb. When setting the timing with or without the factory computer connected, the timing will be a direct read. When setting the timing on a stock engine, the factory computer is taken out of the loop anyway by disconnecting the 10" and 4" vacuum switches.

The factory timing spec of 1600rpms is to ensure the centrifugal advance is fully engaged. There's a direct correlation between the timing at idle and the timing at 1600 with the computer disengaged. If I were to set my timing to 9 degrees at idle, it would ping like crazy under the slightest load. I've tried! So my base idle is 1° BTDC and my computer has been Nuttered out of the system.

Quote:
The 'Mechanical Advance', or more properly referred to as Centrifugal advance (Springs & Weights) will only provide about 5° of lower RPM advance...
After looking back on my notes, it appears that my centrifugal advance adds 10 degrees to my base timing. Perhaps different spring and weights were used between the CJs and YJs... So my base timing is 1° BTDC (at idle) and reads 11° (at 1600 without vacuum advance) after the centrifugal advance is fully engaged.

Quote:
1. Add a full size battery cable to the negative terminal of the battery, and connect it to a starter mounting bolt.
The largest drain in your vehicle is the starter, and the largest 'Ground' wire should go there!
I've actually already done this when I installed my new heavier cables. Didn't seem to make any difference for me at all.

Quote:
To test this 'Theroy'...
The next time your engine is warm, and you have this problem,
Go out and pull the coil connector off the coil
Then crank the engine.

If the engine cranks fine (but of course will not start with the coil unhooked), then you have found your problem!
Yep, engine spins fine without the coil connected, but strains the starter when it is.

Quote:
Wasn't an 'Optima' battery was it?
Shorting out a battery is the SECOND worst thing you can do it it!
You will De-Solder plates from their terminals, burn and crack bridges between terminals, ect.
Nope, not an Optima, just a mid-level parts store brand. But yeah, that seems to be what happened.


Quote:
This sounds silly, but you KNOW since you have done the Nutter bypass, you don't have to set the timing at 1,600 anymore?
Do you know to remove the vacuum line from the distributor and plug it when setting advance?
(don't forget to hook it up when done!)
Yes, I know to disconnect and plug the vacuum advance line. With the vacuum advance disconnected, I don't see how it matters at what RPM I set the timing. The factory setting of 9° BTDC (± 2°) at 1600rpms is the same as saying 1° ATDC (± 2°) at idle, since the only difference between the two RPMs is that the centrifugal advance is engaged at the higher RPM (and therefore adding 10° to the base timing with my distributor), and disengaged at idle (not adding any additional advance).

I've tried setting my base timing to 9° at idle and I get a tremendous amount of pinging once I hit 3rd gear. I've had to back it down to about 5° at idle to eliminate the pinging, but even at that setting the starter is strained. The important thing here is not where I'm setting my timing, but that setting my base timing for optimal performance (5° BTDC) is too much for my starter to handle, and that I have to back the advance down (and sacrifice some performance) in in order to preserve my starter.

Quote:
The 'Computer Years' had a VERY short range of advance built into the 'Low End' of the RPM range...
Usually around 5 degrees, where without computer you would have up to 18 degrees...

This would let your distributor back the timing down quite a bit at low RPM, or when cranking the engine...

Have you considered getting a distributor from 'Pre Computer' years and using it?
So based on your feedback, I'm thinking that the easiest solution to my problem would be to go back to a DuraSpark module and then kick my base advance back up to where I should be, and allow the module's crank circuit to do its job.

Second, and perhaps more desirable, solution would be to keep the HEI module, keep my base timing where it cranks smoothly, and swap my 'computer' distributor for a pre-'82 'non-computer' Motorcraft unit... or at least swap my current weights and springs for the ones that will give me more advance.

Quote:
2. Consider an Ignition cut out switch.
Easy to wire, simple to operate and will stop all those hard start problems...
The ignition cut out switch seems like a band-aid fix to me, especially on a relatively docile 258. "Overkill" as my good friend Fred put it, which I totally agree with. I'd rather solve the core of the problem then compensate for it.
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Unread 02-21-2009, 08:16 PM   #125
Fjguercio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tshark299 View Post
"Overkill" as my good friend Fred put it, which I totally agree with. I'd rather solve the core of the problem then compensate for it.
Please leave me out of your comments. That was your request.

Now it is my request.

Thank you ,
Fred
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Unread 02-21-2009, 09:14 PM   #126
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tshark299 View Post
The factory timing spec of 1600rpms is to ensure the centrifugal advance is fully engaged. There's a direct correlation between the timing at idle and the timing at 1600 with the computer disengaged. If I were to set my timing to 9 degrees at idle, it would ping like crazy under the slightest load. I've tried! So my base idle is 1° BTDC and my computer has been Nuttered out of the system.

After looking back on my notes, it appears that my centrifugal advance adds 10 degrees to my base timing. Perhaps different spring and weights were used between the CJs and YJs... So my base timing is 1° BTDC (at idle) and reads 11° (at 1600 without vacuum advance) after the centrifugal advance is fully engaged.
Sorry, But you have more than one problem...
My guess is your rotor phasing is off, (Trigger Reluctor is out of time for direct fire ignition),
AND/OR,
You UNSUCCESSFULLY attempted the 'Nutter Bypass'...
And the timing computer is still giving you fits unless you removed it completely...

If you have an extra distributor cap,
Cut a hole in the top of the distributor cap right over the #1 terminal, between #1 and coil wire terminal...

I'm aware this is a V-8 cap, but it will give you the Idea about the test cap & hole...



This allows you to see (with timing light) if your rotor is lining up with the correct plug wire terminal when the ignition fires.

See, once you take the 'Retard' out of the system by removing the timing computer, your rotor might be trying to fire the wrong plug wires terminal...

A Junk or $5 cheap cap with a hole cut in it, and a timing light will allow you to observe the rotor in action,
And with no vacuum advance hooked up to the distributor,
Your rotor should be firing on the 'Retarded' side (just after the center line of the #1 terminal with clock wise rotation) and as the vacuum advance comes in (you draw vacuum on the canister) that rotor should appear to move to the 'Advanced' side of the #1 terminal.

Sometimes the rotor will be too far 'Advanced' and when you pull in some vacuum or add centrifugal advance, the rotor nose will get too close to the next terminal in the firing order...
Resulting in 'Pinging' since you are trying to fire that next cylinder 120 Degrees too soon!

Like I said before, there is more than meets the eye to this 'Upgrade',
And depending on if you have a Reman distributor, or if your Reluctor got installed correctly the first time or not, will depend on where the rotor 'Phasing' lines up when the cylinder fires.

Obviously, you have problems somewhere in the system...
Or you would be able to directly read the timing at idle,
And you would be able to run about 6 to 8 degrees unless you just have stupid tall gears (like 2.73:1) and stupid tall tires...

You are showing ALL the symptoms of not having the computer defeated...
and the only other thing it could be is distributor in the engine incorrectly or the Reluctor in the wrong place causing Phasing problems when the ignition advances...
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Unread 02-22-2009, 08:27 AM   #127
Tshark299
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the Nutter Bypass was successful... My original computer is still physically still in the vehicle but is disconnected from the wiring harness now. Doesn't seem to make a difference.

The distributor is factory installed... only thing I've done to it is change the cap and rotor, and rotate it to adjust timing. Otherwise it's as it came from AMC. I will look into your suggestions though, thanks.
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'95 XJ - Donated drive train to the YJ, Parted out the rest

'51 CJ-3A - Buick 225 V6: Painless Wiring Harness, Warn Overdrive & Hubs, 2" Lift, 31" Muds
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Unread 02-25-2009, 11:24 AM   #128
twoleos617
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Called numerous Advance Auto stores. None could even order the spacer or cap and rotor. I went to NAPA and picked up the adapter for $12...http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...or+Cap+Adapter
they didnt have the cap and rotor to fit the larger spacer I bought so I looked up the '82 ford f-150 cap and rotor at Auto Zone and came up with this for $23...http://www.autozone.com/R,4248652/in...ductDetail.htm
do you guys this these will work together??
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Unread 02-25-2009, 02:28 PM   #129
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tshark299 View Post
the Nutter Bypass was successful... My original computer is still physically still in the vehicle but is disconnected from the wiring harness now. Doesn't seem to make a difference.

The distributor is factory installed... only thing I've done to it is change the cap and rotor, and rotate it to adjust timing. Otherwise it's as it came from AMC. I will look into your suggestions though, thanks.
You still aren't getting what's going on I don't think...
If your 'Nutter' was successful, then your trigger signal, and your rotor phasing is going to be about 12 to 15 crankshaft degrees out of sync.

The 'Timing Computer' took the trigger signal from the distributor, then 'Delayed' the signal for 'Retard', and simply passed the signal on for 'Advance' during it's function.

Since the computer had no direct mechanical connection, this was the ONLY way to control timing under the 1,600 RPM limit.

When you did the 'Nutter' you left the trigger and rotor out of sync with each other.
That's why I'm trying to get you to do the "Test Cap" so you can see what's going on, and once you visualize it,
I can show you how to correct the problem.
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Unread 02-25-2009, 02:32 PM   #130
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoleos617 View Post
Called numerous Advance Auto stores. None could even order the spacer or cap and rotor. I went to NAPA and picked up the adapter for $12...http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...or+Cap+Adapter
they didnt have the cap and rotor to fit the larger spacer I bought so I looked up the '82 ford f-150 cap and rotor at Auto Zone and came up with this for $23...http://www.autozone.com/R,4248652/in...ductDetail.htm
do you guys this these will work together??

Advance Auto,
Cap Adapter, $6.49, p/n C193AP

Premium Distributor Cap, $31.98, p/n C193

Premium Rotor, $4.49, p/n D219


------------------------------------------------------

I would say the cap adapter, cap and rotor you have put together would work, if you can stand an ORANGE distributor cap!

------------------------------------------------------

Auto Zone
Cap Adapter, $4.99, p/n F906

Distributor Cap, $20.99, p/n F2104G

Rotor, $3.99, p/n F953

Last edited by JeepHammer; 02-25-2009 at 02:47 PM..
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Unread 02-26-2009, 07:03 AM   #131
dangjeep
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I just wanted to thank you all. I have read this and other threads and have successfully Nuttered and teamrushed my cj. This is the best place for information. I couldn't be happier and the jeep runs like a champ...... I think it might be ready for some action now.

Last edited by dangjeep; 02-26-2009 at 12:54 PM..
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Unread 02-28-2009, 01:17 PM   #132
cibholder03
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Maybe I missed it, but did anyone list the part numbers for the 304 V8 cap and rotor? Possibly for the Blue Streak cap also. Thanks, I may have overlooked it, lost intersted when two guys started argueing back and forth on the thread. Thanks, good info on this thread!
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Unread 03-01-2009, 10:24 AM   #133
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cibholder03 View Post
Maybe I missed it, but did anyone list the part numbers for the 304 V8 cap and rotor? Possibly for the Blue Streak cap also. Thanks, I may have overlooked it, lost intersted when two guys started argueing back and forth on the thread. Thanks, good info on this thread!
You are on an I-6 Thread...

V-8 parts would be for a '79 Ford F-150 Pickup with 302 V-8 engine.
Cap Adapter,
PREMIUM Distributor Cap,
Rotor.

Or,
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

You will need to do something about plug wires,
I suggest this 'Cut To Fit Correctly' set, comes with crimper and terminal gauge, excellent instructions.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
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Unread 03-02-2009, 07:25 AM   #134
scottymac62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
You are on an I-6 Thread...

V-8 parts would be for a '79 Ford F-150 Pickup with 302 V-8 engine.
Cap Adapter,
PREMIUM Distributor Cap,
Rotor.

Or,
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

You will need to do something about plug wires,
I suggest this 'Cut To Fit Correctly' set, comes with crimper and terminal gauge, excellent instructions.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
I just went to Summit yesterday and got the two parts you listed above. That was convenient! All I need now is to get my reman Duraspark dizzy , and I'll be set. ( I already have my Summit CDI) Thanks Hammer!
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Unread 03-02-2009, 11:56 AM   #135
JeepHammer
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Glad it worked out for you!
MSD components for cap, ect. really can't be beat right now, but that Mallory/Summit CDI module is a REAL GOOD deal for $130!
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