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Unread 11-28-2013, 01:28 PM   #1
jumper182
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How easy should Hubs go on Spindle??

Hubs and bearings.
Did a ton of reading on the forum, JEEPHAMMER and ASTEVE are the best!

1980 CJ 7, Dana 30 Axle

How easy should they slide on the spindles? Should it only take hand force, or should you have to hit with a dead blow?

New Spindles, and cleaned hubs off and painted.

Got new Timken bearings, races (set 45 & 47) and went to put it all together.
Left side easy, hub/rotor went on the spindle with a light tap.

Right side, not a chance, huge PIA!! It wouldn't go on, took a part, several times, measured spindle, ID of bearings, checked races in hubs....and it should all fit....so put it together and several good whacks with a 4 lb dead blow, it went on.....Torqued down the 1st nut, no movement, backed it off the 1/6-1/4 turn, moved, but not freely.

Took it a part, cleaned it all up, and checked it all again. I did find some metal shavings near the nut, it looks like the nut shaved off a bit...maybe I put in too far.....cleaned every thing, checked bearings and races....no signs of damage, or bad rollers. Re-installed...same result.

I also noticed that the nuts do not go on the spindle the same depth as left and right, the right is barely on the spindle, while the left side is showing one thread.

Left side; will spin freely after giving it a turn
Went on with a light tap

Right side; will not spin freely after giving it a turn
Took several hard hits with a dead blow. Removal of the hub/rotor assembly leaves the inner bearing on the spindle, then have to use a 3 jaw puller to get it off.

So I think I have a bad inner bearing, and will replace it after this weekend.

Thoughts??

Pictures

Hubs painted


Removed old races, cleaned surfaces, installed new races





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Unread 11-28-2013, 02:02 PM   #2
LumpyGrits
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Swap hubs and see if the issue changes to other spindle.
Make sure the inner bearing races are seated to the same depth as the hub that seats/fits correctly.
LG
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Unread 11-28-2013, 05:47 PM   #3
only in a jeep cj
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The inner bearing should be able to slide on and off the spindle where it rest. I had one that had a little rust/corrosion at this spot and it took two pry bars, a hammer, and 15 minutes to remove it. I refreshed the area with some sandpaper and it was back to sliding on and off as it should.
If your races are seated fully, you should be able to tighten the inner nut down to fully seat the bearings, then back off a quarter to half turn to allow the correct adjustment. The second nut will take up more play from the first nut than you think, so I compensate for this when I set them up. I end up with just the slightest movement to allow for expansion when hot. If I remember correctly, there is the same amount of distance between the second nut and spindle end...several threads show too.
Are you using a socket or the chisel/hammer method. I hope the first.
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Unread 11-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #4
Renegade82
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Jumper - Did you happen to have the ball joints replaced also? They look a bit shiny new. Is the axle stub shaft centered within the inside dia. of the spindle once the spindle is tightened down? Not closer to one side more than another.
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Unread 11-29-2013, 02:03 PM   #5
jumper182
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Thank you for the input.

Yes, new ball joints, installed after the knuckles where powder coated. Inner hole on knuckle had to have the paint wire wheeled off to accept new spindles.

New needle bearings in the spindles, axles are centered, but with finger pressure I can move the axles in the spindles. I read another forum post about this, and was nervous at first, but since mine are centered, I figured they where okay. Should the axles be able to move up/down left/right in the spindle?

I do have a socket for the nuts, not using a chisel.

When I pulled it apart the first time, I did emery cloth the spindle where the inner bearing would rest, and I did measure the spindle and the bearing, the bearing was a few thousands larger than the spindle.

When I first put the races in the hub, I checked that it was full seated from the opposite side, I could see the race and the edge is was on, so I'm 99% sure that it was fully seated.

Something is going on with the inner bearing, it would slide on the spindle easily, and when I pull off the hub, I've had to use a puller to get it off, I can't pull the hub/rotor bearings off all as one piece. The inner bearing and seal stays on the spindle.

I won't be able to work on it until next week/weekend. I think I'm going to pull the left one completely apart, and I'm going to get another inner bearing/race for the right side.
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Unread 11-29-2013, 02:15 PM   #6
Renegade82
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The reason I ask is that I just had a similar issue (see my thread about pg 15) where I had the ball joints put in elsewhere and it turns out the one didn't fully seat which was not putting the "C" in the right spot (direct center) and this caused an issue when putting the hub back on. Took me 2 weeks of slow elimination to figure it out. Replaced the new ball joint (TRW) with a newer one (Raybestos) and it worked fine. So I thought I'd mention this as something to look at. Heres what mine looked like when it was off center.
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Unread 11-29-2013, 02:18 PM   #7
LumpyGrits
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R'82 has a very good point to look for.
Take the inner nut, and torque it to 50 ft/lbs(Use a torque wrench!).
Turn the hub by hand several turns. Back off the nut and retorque again, and spin hub.
Back off nut 1/2 turn, and lightly tighten the nut with only your hand on the socket.
Install outer nut.
Howz it look now??
LG
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Unread 11-29-2013, 07:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
Thank you for the input.

Yes, new ball joints, installed after the knuckles where powder coated. Inner hole on knuckle had to have the paint wire wheeled off to accept new spindles.
Use anti-seize all inside where you wire wheeled and on the mating surface/bolt holes too. I make mine where I can pull the spindle straight off the knuckle by hand (instead of the walking out with a hammer approach) and it will make a field repair such as pulling the axle shaft MUCH easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
New needle bearings in the spindles, axles are centered, but with finger pressure I can move the axles in the spindles. I read another forum post about this, and was nervous at first, but since mine are centered, I figured they where okay. Should the axles be able to move up/down left/right in the spindle?
YES, even with a new spindle bearing, there is movement at the axle shaft end. When you install the lockout, it centers it and keeps it from touching the spindle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
I do have a socket for the nuts, not using a chisel.
Good, All most every CJ front hub Ive taken apart had CHISEL marks from the P.O. It's sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
When I pulled it apart the first time, I did emery cloth the spindle where the inner bearing would rest, and I did measure the spindle and the bearing, the bearing was a few thousands larger than the spindle.
Sand paper may work better (it did for me) and it won't hurt anything as the inside of the bearing doesn't spin there, but just rest with the downward weight. Before you re install the bearing and seal in the rear of the hub, use just the bearing and it should slide on and off the spindle back easily. A little grease will help and prevent future corrosion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
When I first put the races in the hub, I checked that it was full seated from the opposite side, I could see the race and the edge is was on, so I'm 99% sure that it was fully seated.
You can check by doing the procedure Lumpy talks about. Even if a bit firm on the rotation, it should spin as you seat it. When you back off the pressure, it will spin easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
Something is going on with the inner bearing, it would slide on the spindle easily, and when I pull off the hub, I've had to use a puller to get it off, I can't pull the hub/rotor bearings off all as one piece. The inner bearing and seal stays on the spindle.
The bearing is staying because as the hub is pulled off, any slight sideways movement binds it. More sanding/cleaning and grease will help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumper182 View Post
I won't be able to work on it until next week/weekend. I think I'm going to pull the left one completely apart, and I'm going to get another inner bearing/race for the right side.
I think the bearing you have is fine. I'd try to fit it more before I bought a new one.
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1975 CJ-6 304 T15 Dana20 30/44 3.73
1983 CJ-8 258 T5 300 30/44 3.31 Looking for full or half hardtop buy or trade
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Unread 11-30-2013, 09:04 AM   #9
86cj74.2L
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While you have it apart, I'd remove the nuts and washer you bend flat with the ones from a D44.

You'll need to buy a different socket to service the wheel bearings. But no more flat washer to bend over a nut flat. Or fighting to get it away from the nut to remove everything.

My brother and I put new rotors on Grammys CJ last winter and I saying to myself I'm not dealing with those nuts again.
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Unread 11-30-2013, 06:39 PM   #10
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I try to hand fit the bearings on the spindle before I install them in the hub...

Some bearings are VERY tight, and they will show you where the 'Snags' are, burrs, edges that need to be rounded over, ect.

I've also seen some SEALS that HATED to seat on the seal lip of the spindle, and this isn't Jeep, it's everything since it's really hard to get an 'American Made' seal anymore, and the 'Metric' folks don't seem to be able to work out the conversions properly...

--------------

Now, once you KNOW the bearings/seals will fit the spindle, install them.

If the hub simply won't go on no matter how you work it around, you have a problem...

99% of the time, they are just stubborn.
It's the other 1% of the time that bothers me... Usually the inner bearing race isn't seated flat is the cause, and it's misaligning the bearing going on the spindle.

There can be several reasons, deforming the metal when you punch the old races out (Ding),
There can be something under the race,
I've seen too much grease hydraulic a race out of square,
But most of the time it's just a race that isn't seated in the hub correctly.

After all these years, I still use a dental pick or feeler gauge to see if the race bottomed out correctly since I've done it myself and know how easy it is to screw up...
This isn't a 'Dummy' thing like using super fine telephone wire to connect the alternator to the battery, then not being able to figure out why it's not charging...

And it's so very easy to get that race cocked a little, and once the bearing mates with the cocked race, it's going to be cocked a little and NOT go on the spindle without a lot of cussing and messing with it.
All bad, even if you do get it on since the bearing is no longer square with the race in the hub!
If you are lucky, when you torque it down with the spindle nuts, it will pull the race fully seated, but most times, it just damages the bearings.
When you start driving it, side loading will seat the race, then you will have 'Slop' between bearings and races, and the bearings fail way too soon...

The 'Import' bearings are trouble...
Like I said, they have an issue with converting inch size to metric, so they are either way too tight or way too sloppy for my tastes...
If you have 'Issues' with a Timkin bearing, it's usually something YOU did, and not the bearing. I very rarely have issues with Timkin, and when I do, it's usually burrs or dings on the spindle.

This is VERY easy to do! Dinging the soft metal when punching a race out is REALLY EASY,
So is not getting them in completely square and flush since there isn't a gauge line or practical way to see if it's seated correctly...
That's why I use a Hooked dental pick most times, I can get that sharp point in the mating surface crack to see if it goes in one side further than the other...

The other reason I have 'Issues' once in a while is the seal.
If it hangs up early, then it's bearing,
If it simply won't seat fully, it's usually seal.

I use emery cloth to round over the seal surface edge, some of AMC's machining left something to be desired.
A square edge, especially with burrs, is a great way to ruin a seal.
Break that edge, clean up the burrs, and the next seal will go right on without complaints...

So much stuff we have to fix the factory should have done, but that's part of CJ ownership.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 07:37 PM   #11
jumper182
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Thank you all for the input, I will let you know what I find.

Mike
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Unread 12-03-2013, 09:44 AM   #12
dirtdudeaz
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I just did this a month ago... when I put the hub back on the spindle per the manual it was also not going all the way on and couldn't get both nuts/washers on. What I found I had to do was use the socket (perfect size to not damage any parts or bearings) and a mallet, and LIGHTLY tap the end of the socket. You will feel the hub fully seat!
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Unread 02-04-2014, 08:25 PM   #13
jumper182
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Update

I finally got some time on the jeep this past weekend. December and Jan. where way too busy with family, holidays, and work.

I picked up another bearing and race set, just incase.

I pulled both hubs off, left side came off easy, right side took a bit of force.

I tried the Right side (the one that was not spinning freely) on the left side. It slid on easy.

I tried the left side on the right....and it wouldn't go on. I got it stuck on one attempt, and as I was pulling it off, I left the inner seal and inner bearing on the spindle.

I pulled the right side hub inner seal and bearing off, and cleaned out the grease to check if that inner race was fully seated. As far as I could tell, it was and since it slide on easily on the left side spindle, I'm assuming that its not a race or hub.

Then I tried just the inner bearing on each spindle.
Left side = all 3 bearing I had I could get on the spindle with some minor fiddling....and it would slide on the surface easily.

Right side = no luck at all with any bearings. I just could not get it to work.

I felt around the spindle, no burrs that I could feel, but I broke out the emery cloth and polished the bearing surface up.

Tried again with all 3 of the bearings, no luck.

Since all 3 bearings slide on the left side spindle easily, I believe it is something with the spindle.

I've contacted the place where I got the spindle, to see about getting a replacement.

Images below. My flickr account isn't working, so these are upload to the forum.

The last picture is the left side spindle with one of the inner bearings on it.

I'll keep you all posted when I get more time to work/fix this issue.

Thanks for the input and advice.

Mike
front-axle-frame.jpg

rt-side-spindle.jpg

lh-side-spindle.jpg

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Unread 02-04-2014, 10:19 PM   #14
LumpyGrits
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Borrow a micrometer, and take some measurements.
Does sound like a dimensional issue, between the 2 spindles.
LG
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Unread 02-18-2014, 08:06 PM   #15
jumper182
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Quick update:
Replacement spindle received, inner bearing slides on easy!

Diameter with calipers is about 0.002" smaller than the 'bad' one.

I should have time tomorrow to re-assemble the spindle, hub and install on the knuckle.

Thank you all for the advice.
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