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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:01 AM   #46
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscopcoltrane View Post
Damn JeepHammer. I was looking forward to really tearing into what you had posted tonight in the garage. Back to the old search function...
I don't want to 'Over Complicate' things for the OP, and I'm not going to start a crap fight on the forum just to get solid information across...

I have to assume every guy that posts this stuff is starting from scrach, doesn't know what's going on... So I start from there instead of someplace in the middle or just make blind suggestions that might get the Poster into trouble...

Thesis? Yes, I guess in a way this would be the 'Condensed' or 'Thesis' version of what is going on here.
A Thesis is a condensed version at the end of a very long education process, so I guess 'Thesis' would be a fair example.
A better description would be 'Ignitions For Dummies' or maybe 'Readers Digest Condensed Version'... For those of you old enough to remember Readers Digest books... And did read for information and entertainment...

Just didn't want to confuse the OP anymore. He seemed more receptive to short answers about what someone else would do than to figure out how it worked and how to tune it for himself.
I don't give 'Cookie Cutter' answers, and apparently I was boring and annoying people, so it's easier for me just to butt-out and not address the issues...

If someone wants information, they will seek it, and I will answer. I *Thought* I was helping...
And if deleting the 'Overly Complicated' information is the way to 'Help', that's what I'll do.
I don't want the crap fights that plague about all other forums to invite this one, so I *Thought* I was doing the 'Correct' thing again. Apparently not...

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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:06 AM   #47
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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:11 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
The answer *SHOULD* definitively answer the 'Initial' or 'Static' timing debate and weather you should jack a bunch of Initial into the system or not... But I'm sure it won't.

Without understanding EXACTLY what each type of advance is and what it does, this will go on forever.
There isn't any debate. We know how much and why and there isn't anything that needs settling. It's pretty easy stuff. You don't have to engineer an Olympic-sized swimming pool to know that a bowling ball doesn't float


Shawn
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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:14 AM   #49
Matt1981CJ7
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Hammer,

What I try to do is gauge the OPs knowledge level, his level of research, and his capacity to learn before I respond. Then I tailor my response accordingly.

In this case, Vince had endured the "Dummies" version on another lengthy thread already. He just needed a refresher.

IMO, every timing thread does NOT have to turn into a lengthy discussion of ignition theory, history, and a detailed description of how to disassemble and re-curve a distributer. Much of that overwhelms the average member. Some guys just need the time of day....

Anyway, we have our different styles, and I think they actually compliment each other.

Matt
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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:39 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatson454 View Post
There isn't any debate. We know how much and why and there isn't anything that needs settling. It's pretty easy stuff. You don't have to engineer an Olympic-sized swimming pool to know that a bowling ball doesn't float


Shawn
So, you now AGREE that jacking in 'Initial' timing is a bad idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Hammer,

What I try to do is gauge the OPs knowledge level, his level of research, and his capacity to learn before I respond. Then I tailor my response accordingly.

In this case, Vince had endured the "Dummies" version on another lengthy thread already. He just needed a refresher.

IMO, every timing thread does NOT have to turn into a lengthy discussion of ignition theory, history, and a detailed description of how to disassemble and re-curve a distributer. Much of that overwhelms the average member. Some guys just need the time of day....

Anyway, we have our different styles, and I think they actually compliment each other.

Matt
1. 'REFRESHER' doesn't work if the guy didn't get good information the first time, And I don't know what information he got...

2. 'LENGTHY' discussions?
You mean the basics... Other than covering the distributor has had 100 years of development, and you shouldn't take it lightly there was no history..
No discussion of lubrication, no discussion of gear mesh, no discussion of shaft design or housing design,
Just covering the important things, like how things work.

Like I said, I don't want to start a crap fight. Shawn is getting his back up again, you are chiming in and further deleting the thread. That was what I was TRYING TO AVOID.

I don't want a pissing contest to see who's 'Smarter' or who has the most supporters on the forum.
That accomplishes NOTHING.

I'm trying to convey INFORMATION, and it wasn't wanted in detail, and posts like these are why I bowed out...
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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:51 AM   #51
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Depends on what you mean by "jacking".

I "know" from many years of doing this kind of thing that the initial timing sets the baseline for everything. The centrifugal advance, the vacuum advance, throttle plate position, manifold vacuum, etc are all dependent on the initial timing. It's camshaft and altitude sensitive. Anyone who actually thinks that it's just there to "get the engine running" and that the centrifugal advance is all in by 1,200 rpm is either in need of some education or completely full of ***.

If you don't have enough, the engine is lazy, lacks throttle response and chugs along on a cold start. Too much and you have a problem on your hands. That's why guidelines were given on what to look for. There's no need for all of this bs that only happens every six months or so. If you want to talk yourself into a following, do so on another topic. This one isn't your strong suit.


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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:05 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatson454 View Post
Depends on what you mean by "jacking".

I "know" from many years of doing this kind of thing that the initial timing sets the baseline for everything. The centrifugal advance, the vacuum advance, throttle plate position, manifold vacuum, etc are all dependent on the initial timing. It's camshaft and altitude sensitive. Anyone who actually thinks that it's just there to "get the engine running" and that the centrifugal advance is all in by 1,200 rpm is either in need of some education or completely full of ***.

If you don't have enough, the engine is lazy, lacks throttle response and chugs along on a cold start. Too much and you have a problem on your hands. That's why guidelines were given on what to look for. There's no need for all of this bs that only happens every six months or so. If you want to talk yourself into a following, do so on another topic. This one isn't your strong suit.


Shawn
That's exactly what I'm talking about... You flame up...
No discussion. If you don't like what's being written, you start insulting.

My skill level isn't in question since I post FACTS that can easily be checked, and not anecdotal stories or just say this is the way it is and if you don't like it I'll call you a moron.

If this is the way the forum wants to go, then I'm out. Tired of trying to argue with guys that have too much ego and no concern for anyone else or their information/opinions.

--------------------------------------

Now, the original question from my original post stands,
And now I'll add this disclaimer since you brought it up...

If you ARE NOT using a long duration, high lift camshaft intended for racing in the new 4th generation engines...

IF you are using a mostly stock, or entirely stock (and worn) camshaft, heads, pistons, ect,

What EXACTLY is the FUNCTION of 'Initial Advance'?

Since the engine IS NOT firing, it's turning on the starter at about 150 RPM,
There is no centrifugal or vacuum advance since the engine is NOT running...
What do you think the 'Initial' is there for?

I can't believe I had to break this down into such qualified bites, but there it is...

And people wonder why I start with such basic information when I reply...
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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:08 AM   #53
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Would you rather we started a 'Discussion' thread here?
And CALMLY discuss viewpoints on this subject?

I really don't have time to argue every tiny point in an adversarial manner, but if you would like to express what you think is going on, I'd do that.
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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:17 AM   #54
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Hammer,

The OP's question was answered in the first three or so posts. This 4 page nightmare is on you. It's YOUR ego. It's YOU that loves to be stroked by the "wow, thank you JeepHammer for your 3 foot long post on air pressure in your tires". These battles ONLY happen when you come back around!

You and Fred set out to bash me when I joined in 2009 and had the crazy idea that manifold vacuum is really a better way to go about it. You spent the next two years stalking my arse turning every thread into a flame war. I'm sorry if I'm one of the guys that knows just how full of it you are when it comes to engines but you started this battle years ago and I'm tired of it.

Go post your lengthy bs on different topics but you know that I know that you're full of **** when it comes to engines. There are plenty of others who know as well. I was hoping you'd have a different attitude this time around but that obviously isn't the case.
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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:18 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Would you rather we started a 'Discussion' thread here?
And CALMLY discuss viewpoints on this subject?

I really don't have time to argue every tiny point in an adversarial manner, but if you would like to express what you think is going on, I'd do that.
No, Hammer, I don't. I know your motives and you've been pulling this crap for years now.
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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:32 AM   #56
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My point, that obviously eludes some, is duplicating the same information over, and over, and over, ad nauseam.... is just a waste of time and bandwidth.

If the OP wants that level of information, there are dozens of threads available. Most of them contain the exact same information from the same people/person. I for one, am happy to point the OP to those links, and spare myself the time of pecking out the same answers on a daily basis.

A simple "thanks" is usually what I get for my efforts, which is perfect for me. I don't need to be glorified, or impress anyone with my knowledge. I just try to help in the most efficient manner possible.

Matt
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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:39 AM   #57
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This is what I'm talking about...
No one is calling you names, just asking you to CALMLY outline your viewpoint, give a few references to mostly STOCK vehicles we have around here, and to join in on things.

I don't know you. I have no way of 'Verifying' your self posted 'Credentials'...
So 'Taking Your Word' for anything would be like taking MY WORD for anything...
'FREE' internet information is worth exactly what you paid for it.... NOTHING.

And just for the RECORD, I've never advocated using MANIFOLD VACUUM SIGNAL.
There is a 'Spark Ported' vacuum signal nipple on most carbs, and that is what I advocate using.
The spark ported vacuum signal is designed SPECIFICALLY to address 'Issues' with raw manifold vacuum, so I don't advocate it.
(Makes me think you have me mixed up with someone else on that particular issue.
Not saying we haven't had differing viewpoints on things, just not that particular one.)

As for 'Stalking You", what would be the point to that?
*IF*... You were posting something that only RACERS do, and recommending it to be done on a stock vehicle... AND it would adversely effect the driveability, Then, AND ONLY THEN, did it point it out.

I also explained WHY it would adversely effect the operation of a stock vehicle, which you often took as a personal insult that I had reversed what you wrote...

If you NOTICE, I explain how it works, what changes you MIGHT make (and why), and I also include what might happen if you do it incorrectly, what to watch for to keep the vehicle from killing itself.
If there is a 'Racing Component' involved, I CLEARLY LABEL IT AS 'WHAT RACERS DO'... I'm not recommending it, just explaining the 'Extreme End' of what can sometimes be done, not necessarily what anyone should do.

I'm NOT stuck in 2006 or whenever, if I got my feeling hurt, I expressed it THEN and didn't carry a grudge.
Grudges are weight I don't need to carry around with me. The only person a grudge means anything to is the one carrying that weight because the other person doesn't care, or sometimes doesn't even know about it...

With that being said,
The original question stands,
When you start the stock/mostly stock, often heavily worn engine, when the starter is turning it at about 150 RPM and there is no centrifugal or vacuum advance,
What EXACTLY is the function of the 'Initial Advance' or 'Static Advance'?
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Unread 11-10-2013, 09:53 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
My point, that obviously eludes some, is duplicating the same information over, and over, and over, ad nauseam.... is just a waste of time and bandwidth.

If the OP wants that level of information, there are dozens of threads available. Most of them contain the exact same information from the same people/person. I for one, am happy to point the OP to those links, and spare myself the time of pecking out the same answers on a daily basis.

A simple "thanks" is usually what I get for my efforts, which is perfect for me. I don't need to be glorified, or impress anyone with my knowledge. I just try to help in the most efficient manner possible.

Matt
Why is it you always post directly after Shawn?

Glorified? Hardly.
Remembered, not likely.

Just trying to pass on some information about these quickly dying systems in the face of fuel injection, distributor-less ignitions, computer controls, ect.

Pretty soon it will all be electric wheel motors and there won't be a engine, ignition, carb, transmission, transfer case or differential at all.

Now, if you wonder about the information I'm putting forth, it's easy for me to post up third party references.
Not from hot rod articles I'm quoting verbatim, but from places like research universities.
Basic electrical principals are just that, and they don't change.
Same with mechanical principals.

Yes, I know you are into 'Brevity', but that's just not the way you get a firm grasp on things...
Pictures can't tell you why you use an iron core in a transformer coil instead of steel,
Or why the coil fires when power is CUT to the coil.
That stuff is something you will have to research, and I can help with that, but you will have to READ... Sometimes long and tedious explanations of WHY things work the way they do.

I can't MAKE you do any research, but if you REALLY want to know WHY things work the way they do, you will have to first become aware of why it works contrary to what you *THOUGHT* (and I do that a lot to people), and then VERIFY what I'm writing is true with research.

Just posting up after Shawn and saying 'WHAT HE SAID!' doesn't do you or anyone else any good...
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Unread 11-10-2013, 10:02 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by swatson454 View Post
No, Hammer, I don't. I know your motives and you've been pulling this crap for years now.
My 'Motives' have changed, like my tactics.
I have assessed what was, and what WASN'T working, and adapted.
Less attitude, more education.

If I can get a DIRECT ANSWER, then I can close in on what IS, or ISN'T correct with any given person's viewpoint.

Sometimes I learn something. Sometimes they learn something.

The problem is, when most people get cornered they get defensive instead of adjust their 'Beliefs' to accurately explain what's actually going on.

Religion, Politics & Sports are sure to cause an argument around here, and maybe an outright fight.
"Beliefs' are the problem, if it were pure science, mechanical science, electrical science, whatever, it would be MUCH easier since scientists are constantly revising with new information.
'Beliefs' are 'Fixed' and don't change with new information...

A debate, backed up with facts is always the best way to get to the bottom of things, so I offered a debate.
If what you believe is correct, then a debate with facts will prove any given viewpoint.

Take the clinical approach. Scrutiny is never a bad thing and usually produces the PROVABLE/REPEATABLE over the 'Belief'...
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Unread 11-10-2013, 10:05 AM   #60
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Do you remember Matt's timing curve thread? That was a really good "discussion" on ignition timing, what each mechanical function does, when and how it's useful, how to optimize it based on what the engine wants and responds to, not what YOU THINK it needs, and how to tell when enough is enough... based on RESULTS.

Had Matt read another thesis statement based on theory and just said "wow, thank you JeepHammer for your infinite wisdom", he never would have seen the improvements that he saw and he's helped many a member sort out their lazy a$$ Duraspark ignition as a result.

You don't adjust the results until they match your theory. You adjust your theory until they match the results.

If I tell a story related to the topic at hand that helps to illustrate my point, you consider it "anecdotal" and an "internet story". However, anything you post is somehow considered "fact" and "science".
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