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Unread 12-11-2008, 11:40 AM   #16
coas
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Stock is 5/16 and 1/4, 5/16 for the fuel tank vapors. With YJ/XJ the factory went with 3/8 and 5/16.


Jim, nice idea, next time...

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Unread 12-11-2008, 12:12 PM   #17
whittlecj
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Ok, so I think I will use the WJ reg/filter, a G3 or equivalent, but the pump concerns me still. I've seen lots of reports about the inline pumps going dry burning up when fuel levels are low. I've see people recommend to put the pumps below the fuel level, but the pictures of installations I have seen, including Hesco's, all show the pump mounted at the top of the gas tank. My thought has been to go with some sort of check valve between the tank and the pump, then mounting the pump at a standard location along the frame or right in front of the tank.

Thoughts? The Mallory (110FI) inline pump has a nipple made to bleed air from the system. At 200$+ the pump is pricey, but will this solve that problem? http://www.malloryperformance.com/In...andID=6&ID=431

There are check valves by Earl's for 80$ that I was thinking about for a check valve solution.
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Unread 12-11-2008, 12:22 PM   #18
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coas View Post
Stock is 5/16 and 1/4, 5/16 for the fuel tank vapors. With YJ/XJ the factory went with 3/8 and 5/16.
.
Good thing I was reading this, thanks you are correct. I must have been thinking our old XJ.
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Unread 12-11-2008, 09:56 PM   #19
coas
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What the propose of the check valve? how it will help with that?

My first pump, E2000 worked dry and burned up, this happened when I used a too restrictive filters and 5/16 line before the pump. Now, with the new one, my pump work perfectly even when the fuel tank is almost dry.

I don't see why you insist on the Mallory pump but it's your money.
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Unread 12-12-2008, 07:16 AM   #20
whittlecj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coas View Post
What the propose of the check valve? how it will help with that?
I may not be thinking right, but won't the check valve keep fuel at the pump between start ups? I guess my logic was bit screqy, if the level is too low a check valve won't magically keep the fuel in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coas View Post
My first pump, E2000 worked dry and burned up, this happened when I used a too restrictive filters and 5/16 line before the pump. Now, with the new one, my pump work perfectly even when the fuel tank is almost dry.
And you use the E2182 now? Where is yours mounted? Is it in the same place Hesco recommends, or Lucky 4x4 from offroad's picture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coas View Post
I don't see why you insist on the Mallory pump but it's your money.
No insisting here! Part of me wonders why one pump is $80 and one is $250 though. When I looked at 2003-04 vintage posts on cjoffroad about pumps, there seemed to be alot of failures from the pump running dry, even when the fuel tank was 1/2 full. Compounding that, I did not see an ideal place to mount the pump under the tank line. Just throwing possible solutions out there, I thought the air bleed on the Mallory was interesting, but I guess I could just carry 2 extra 2812s for that price.
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Last edited by whittlecj; 12-12-2008 at 08:42 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Unread 12-12-2008, 08:33 AM   #21
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whittlecj View Post
When I looked at 2003-04 vintage posts on cjoffroad about pumps, there seemed to be alot of failures from the pump running dry, even when the fuel tank was 1/2 full.
If I was going to do that job, I would get the proper gas tank.

That aside, when you run a return line on a Jeep, it needs to be higher than the feed to the rail or carb. If the return line isn't up top, the gas can and does siphon back to the tank when it sits or is shut down hot which can air lock the line and pump.

Just a guess for them burning up from being dry.
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Unread 12-12-2008, 08:54 AM   #22
whittlecj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
If I was going to do that job, I would get the proper gas tank.
I have not properly researched that option, but my understanding is that it does have tradeoffs as well including reverse fuel level resistance readings and maybe fitment. I will do some work on that option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
That aside, when you run a return line on a Jeep, it needs to be higher than the feed to the rail or carb. If the return line isn't up top, the gas can and does siphon back to the tank when it sits or is shut down hot which can air lock the line and pump.

Just a guess for them burning up from being dry.
Ok, just like on the carb setup. 1st picture is the filter I plan on using from a WJ - the female connection is the return line. The 2nd is a rough sketch just to demonstrate understanding. I left of a prefilter on the sketch but plan on adding one if I go the inline route. The many failures I read about did not have this type of return system but had the one from the rail. I wonder if they were careful enough to route the return line above the fuel line, especially since they are on opposite sides of the jeep.
fuel-example.jpg  
chlff772003.jpg

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Unread 12-12-2008, 09:23 AM   #23
coas
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The problem is not the dry start ups but it's the intank line not submerged in fuel when cornering or at uphill. Not like originally FI cars or truck, CJ fuel tank doesn't have baffles in it, uncovering the out line when uphill with half full and down fuel tank..
The second factor for burned up pumps is the pump ability to pull, some, like Bosch pumps, are better in that. other pumps are not that effective puller but more of a pusher pump. The E2000 is a good at pushing but not at pulling. The E2182 is way better as a puller pump than the E2000 and this is due to the larger inlet, 1/2 for the E2182 and 5/16 for the E2000. So is Bosch pumps, large inlet.
So, if you place a pusher pump high up from a fuel tank with no baffles, your pump will not last long instead of 8-10 years..

It's all start with the mounting spot, I don't have a picture of my current setup but here is an old one, the pump is mounted at the frame near that place, so basically the filter is above the pump and the pump outlet is facing the rear of the Jeep.:

At that location the pump is lower than the mid height of the tank. You'll have to bend a steel line from the pump outlet to the filter inlet to avoid hose restriction.

About the price, there are two pump manufacturers in the US, Walbro and Siemens. Add Bosch pumps and that's about it. All the other brand just buy their pumps from those manufacturers, adding some fancy paint job, accessories and a "prestigious" price tag.

Most of the After market pumps are the exact same as the pumps you can get from the chain stores for half the price.
Look at this pump, E7052, now let see a nicely colored after market pump, BBK Performance 1602, these are the same!

You have a few options for good pump:
E2000 ~35 GPH@ 90 -100 PSI $93.99 5/16 inlet
E8228 38 GPH @ 100-125 PSI $120.99 3/8 inlet
E2182 50 GPH @ 100-110 PSI $91.99 1/2 inlet
E8248 67 GPH @ 110-120 PSI $127.99 3/8 inlet (noisy)
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Unread 12-15-2008, 09:01 PM   #24
whittlecj
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Thanks. I am going to go with the E2182, although the mounting location is still a bit murky for me. I keep crawling under the rear end of the jeep and I just don't see a mounting location that is below the midpoint of the fuel tank EXCEPT for the fuel tank skid plate. Maybe thats an ok place as long as I don't have any self tapping screws or anything pointed towards the tank.

I might go ahead and run new fuel line as well, besides the new hose. Do I need to have FI rated hose before the fuel pump? I would expect that I could just run stock fule hose to the prefilter then to the fuel pump, with everthing else being FI rated. This sound off? I seem to be able to make an argument either way in my head. Same question for the return line. FI strength or no?

I don't mind spending the extra time and money to do that, but I sure don't want to do it for no good reason.

Thanks,
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Unread 12-15-2008, 11:20 PM   #25
coas
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Use FI rated fuel hose, it will last long and you won't need messing with the fuel tank hoses for a long time.

For the new lines, use as much as possible steel line and less hose, hoses are used only when flexibility in needed. It's safer and look cleaner this way. More than one foot of hose is too long and you should have use steel line.
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Unread 12-16-2008, 06:07 AM   #26
whittlecj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coas View Post
Use FI rated fuel hose, it will last long and you won't need messing with the fuel tank hoses for a long time.

For the new lines, use as much as possible steel line and less hose, hoses are used only when flexibility in needed. It's safer and look cleaner this way. More than one foot of hose is too long and you should have use steel line.

Thanks - I think I was trying to be lasy and not drop the tank to get to the connections. I am planning on investing in a coil of line, bender, and flare tool and just have at it.
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Unread 12-16-2008, 06:37 AM   #27
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Well I guess late is better than never. I'm running an Aeromotive A1000 pump, Aeromotive filters, Aeromotive fuel rails, and Aeromotive regulator. I'm running big -10AN fuel lines feeding and -8AN return S.S. braided. Since my Jeep is not yet complete I can not make much argument for how well it runs but I plan on building some sort of baffle inside the tank to keep it fed on inclines and descents. I added fuel tank foam already but I talked to a tech at Aeromotive and he recommended that I mount the pump lower than the tank and baffel it but mounting lower then the tank is not possible unless I want to rip it off on the trails. The gauge under the hood is for fuel pressure to make adjusting the regulator easier.





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Unread 12-16-2008, 06:57 AM   #28
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The lines and clamps going to the pump do not have to be FI rated, the return lines do. The reason is if you ever get a kink in the return line or some type of blockage this will cause pressure to build (all a pressure regulator is is a controlled restriction in the return flow).

I am using an E2000 mounted on the frame above where the skid plate mounts (for protection). It would be nice to have a spot closer to the tank that is protected and is that low, but I did not see any. It has been on for several years with no issues. When my E2000 goes I will get an E2182.

Brian


Quote:
Originally Posted by whittlecj View Post
Thanks. I am going to go with the E2182, although the mounting location is still a bit murky for me. I keep crawling under the rear end of the jeep and I just don't see a mounting location that is below the midpoint of the fuel tank EXCEPT for the fuel tank skid plate. Maybe thats an ok place as long as I don't have any self tapping screws or anything pointed towards the tank.

I might go ahead and run new fuel line as well, besides the new hose. Do I need to have FI rated hose before the fuel pump? I would expect that I could just run stock fule hose to the prefilter then to the fuel pump, with everthing else being FI rated. This sound off? I seem to be able to make an argument either way in my head. Same question for the return line. FI strength or no?

I don't mind spending the extra time and money to do that, but I sure don't want to do it for no good reason.

Thanks,
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Unread 12-16-2008, 08:09 AM   #29
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whittlecj View Post
Ok, just like on the carb setup. 1st picture is the filter I plan on using from a WJ - the female connection is the return line. The 2nd is a rough sketch just to demonstrate understanding. I left of a prefilter on the sketch but plan on adding one if I go the inline route. The many failures I read about did not have this type of return system but had the one from the rail. I wonder if they were careful enough to route the return line above the fuel line, especially since they are on opposite sides of the jeep.
You have the filter on backward in the drawing I think. I also think a filter with a return line needs to be up in the engine compartment. I think a low placement like that will be air lock time when you shut down.
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89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 12-16-2008, 01:56 PM   #30
bleoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
You have the filter on backward in the drawing I think. I also think a filter with a return line needs to be up in the engine compartment. I think a low placement like that will be air lock time when you shut down.
It may not be. I am pretty sure that is a filter/pressure regulator all in one. It is used with a returnless fuel rail. Fuel is under pressure at the outlet and any excess fuel provided by the pump is fed back to the tank. I think in stock setups these are kept back by the tank (think of all the fuel lines this saves the car companies!).

I don't think drainback is an issue in a returnless or full looped FI system. I suspect the check valve in the pump or the fuel pressure regulator itself keeps that from happening.
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