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Help with Rush Upgrade and/or ignition problems?
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08-21-2008, 05:15 PM
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#31 | ||
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Registered User
1982 CJ7
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Quote:
The E coil sounds great, whether a factory unit, or the MSD 8227, but not sure about fab'ing a mount and hooking it all up. Probably a piece of cake, but the 2F seems the easiest, especially for those that aren't mechanics. At 45, I no longer do mechanically what I did in my 20's, and oil changes and tune-ups are about it anymore. JeepHammer, In reading up on Team Rush upgrades here at Jeep Forum, I've noticed you truly go out of your way to explain things in depth, and you did the same for me. You're a great resource for a lot of the guys here, so thank you.
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Terry ~ USN Ret. 30Sep07 : ) 1982 CJ7 4.2L ~ T-999 ~ Dana 300 ~ SOA Conversion Dana 30/AMC 20 with Truetrac - one piece axle - 4.10's 33" Toyo M/T's on Pro Comp Xtreme Series 1069 Borla header and Catback Exhaust System Jeeperman bumper w/ Ramsey Patriot 8000 - Jeeperman tire carrier/bumper |
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08-21-2008, 05:16 PM
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#32 | |
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Registered User
1982 CJ7
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Quote:
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Terry ~ USN Ret. 30Sep07 : ) 1982 CJ7 4.2L ~ T-999 ~ Dana 300 ~ SOA Conversion Dana 30/AMC 20 with Truetrac - one piece axle - 4.10's 33" Toyo M/T's on Pro Comp Xtreme Series 1069 Borla header and Catback Exhaust System Jeeperman bumper w/ Ramsey Patriot 8000 - Jeeperman tire carrier/bumper |
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08-21-2008, 05:19 PM
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#33 | |
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Registered User
1982 CJ7
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Quote:
Which CDI are you referring to?
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Terry ~ USN Ret. 30Sep07 : ) 1982 CJ7 4.2L ~ T-999 ~ Dana 300 ~ SOA Conversion Dana 30/AMC 20 with Truetrac - one piece axle - 4.10's 33" Toyo M/T's on Pro Comp Xtreme Series 1069 Borla header and Catback Exhaust System Jeeperman bumper w/ Ramsey Patriot 8000 - Jeeperman tire carrier/bumper |
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08-21-2008, 05:47 PM
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#34 |
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Registered User
1982 CJ5
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Yea Dirteater, the Blaster 2F uses the same connector the stock Ignition coil uses. I couldn't find it locally, so I ordered it and had it shipped to me. Simple plug and pray!
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__________________ - 1982 CJ5 - AMC 258 TeamRushed, MC2100, T-176, Dana 300, Goodyear AT 31's, AMC AM Radio, SuperTop, Tuffy Stereo Console , Black Diamond AT Shocks , CJ Draw Bar, Herculiner The secret to a jeep, especially a cj, is you can't panic. - Mike |
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08-21-2008, 05:48 PM
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#35 |
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Registered User
2004 TJ Wrangler
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: los angeles, CALIFORNIA
Posts: 46
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MSD DISTRIBUTOR, MSD BLASTER COIL,
MSD 6-OFF ROAD MULTIPLE SPARK DISCHARGE- it was probably expensive as hell when you add it all together, but it's simple & what i really like is the msd-6 gives you a hotter & longer spark duration under 3,000 rpm.
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Rectum? hell- ya damn near killed em! |
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08-21-2008, 06:10 PM
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#36 |
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Registered User
1982 CJ7
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Where's the stock unit located that the MSD6 replaces?
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Terry ~ USN Ret. 30Sep07 : ) 1982 CJ7 4.2L ~ T-999 ~ Dana 300 ~ SOA Conversion Dana 30/AMC 20 with Truetrac - one piece axle - 4.10's 33" Toyo M/T's on Pro Comp Xtreme Series 1069 Borla header and Catback Exhaust System Jeeperman bumper w/ Ramsey Patriot 8000 - Jeeperman tire carrier/bumper |
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08-21-2008, 09:12 PM
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#37 |
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Registered User
2004 TJ Wrangler
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: los angeles, CALIFORNIA
Posts: 46
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in the trash i think?if i remember correctly, the factory unit consisted of the coil, distributor & ecu "somebody correct me if i'm wrong" the msd-6 box is mounted on mine right behind the passenger side fenderwell/under the battery tray, its got 3 connectors running out of it and a few leads. the first connector runs to your coil, the second to the distributor and the last to a msd rev limiter "not mandatory" if your not running the rev limiter, you can just seal up the connector. it is recommended though- if your u-joints should fail, or if all 4 wheels come off the ground you'll have a rod playing peek a boo with the side of your engine block at 6 grand. as far as the leads go- red battery positive, black battery negative, blue tach.
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Rectum? hell- ya damn near killed em! |
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08-22-2008, 01:05 AM
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#38 |
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Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5
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I don't agree with that.
If you have a pot full of money, the do the MSD distributor. Frankly, the factory distributor with the 'TeamRush' upgraded distributor cap and rotor and plug wires will work every bit as well as the MSD under about 5,000 RPM... MSD 'Blaster' coil, like the 2F, are just factory style coils using better components. Jeep/Motorcraft used a very good grade of coil from the factory, but your coils is at LEAST 23+ YEARS OLD! Damage to the coil is cumulative, so every misfire in the last 23+ years has left it's mark inside that coil... I'd change it and not look back. The only qutestion is, with what kind of coil... Again, you need to look at application, If you have a older, high mileage I-6 that's 'Long in Tooth', and you don't run it past about 3,500 RPM very often or for very long, I'd stick with a stock type canister coil. It puts out the same voltage, a little more amperage and you don't have to hunt up brackets and connectors for the application. I might reconsider that if I stumbled onto a good used Ford E-core coil, coil connetor and coil bracket in the salvage yard for $5! Ford used an EXCELLENT coil in the late '80's and through the 90's on the fuel injected vehicles... You can't touch that coil for less than a $50 bill, and then you have to shell out another $15 for the connector, and make a bracket since you still can't seem to find one on the aftermarket! IF you have a stock distributor that has it's problems fixed (CAP ROTOR PLUGWIRES) And you have a fresh coil of your choice, Now that you have fixed the Distributor Cap problem so you can DELIVER the higher ignition energy, Have opened up the plug gaps to 0.045" to drive the firing voltage up to about 30K or 35K volts... AND, You have a coil that is reliable at those voltages... PUT A GROUND WIRE ON THE HEAD SO THE HIGH VOLTAGE CAN GROUND AT THE PLUGS! You are getting the spark energy to the spark plugs, but it's not going to do you much good if it can't ground THROUGH the plugs and back to the battery!! If you REALLY want to makes some spark energy increases, and deliver that spark energy in a form it's useful... USE A CDI MODULE. (CDI, Capacitive Discharge Ignition) Most current CDI modules will increase your USABLE SPARK ENERGY by 500% just plugging them into your factory distributor and factory or E-core coil! A 'Reliable' Factory type DuraSpark module replacement starts at $80 and goes up to over $350. You STILL HAVE A FACTORY STYLE SINGLE SPARK IGNITION FOR THAT MONEY... A CDI module starts about $130, plugs in with a couple of simple adapters, and Increases USABLE Spark Energy a bare minimum of 500%! And like I said, you DO NOT have to change your coil or distirbutor! This is a diagram for installing a CDI ignition module, with part numbers and placing for adapters...  Now remember, this DOES NOT have to be done all at once, the 'TeamRush' upgrade works in 3 phases, 1. Cap Adapter, Cap, Rotor, Plugwires so you get control on the spark energy in the distributor cap and start getting it out to the CORRECT plug at the CORRECT TIME! Now your distributor cap can control the spark energy, Open the plug gaps up to about 0.045" to drive the firing voltages up a little... 2. A. Upgrade the ignition coil to something made in the past decade or two. B. Do the 'Nutter' bypass if you have the computer engine. C. Maximize the tuning of the advance curve, springs, adjust the vacuum advance, ect. 3. CDI module for ultimate in 'Low Buck' ignitions.
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REMEMBER, 'Free' internet information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it! LINK:Dual Battery Diagrams & Explanations. LINK:Winch, Welding, 'Lend Power' Project, LINK:Water Proofing Ignition, Hubs, Ect., LINK:BSERK's Winch Plate, LINK:AMC V-8 Front Cover Recondition, LINK:How An Ignition Works, LINK:Ignition Swaps '77 Older Jeeps, LINK:'78-'90 Jeep Ignition Upgrades, |
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08-22-2008, 09:29 AM
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#39 |
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Registered User
2004 TJ Wrangler
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: los angeles, CALIFORNIA
Posts: 46
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that may very well be true with the team rush upgrade, i have never compared the two on a dyno. I'm just going off the msd-6 advertisements- "a longer hotter spark under 3,000 rpm as opposed to stock ignition systems that produce a weak spark until you get into the mid-range" & under 3 grand is probably where your gonna do most of your crawling. I'm sure either systems would be a great upgrade from stock.
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Rectum? hell- ya damn near killed em! |
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08-22-2008, 10:48 AM
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#40 | |
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Registered User
1982 CJ7
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Quote:
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Terry ~ USN Ret. 30Sep07 : ) 1982 CJ7 4.2L ~ T-999 ~ Dana 300 ~ SOA Conversion Dana 30/AMC 20 with Truetrac - one piece axle - 4.10's 33" Toyo M/T's on Pro Comp Xtreme Series 1069 Borla header and Catback Exhaust System Jeeperman bumper w/ Ramsey Patriot 8000 - Jeeperman tire carrier/bumper |
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08-22-2008, 11:41 AM
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#41 |
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Registered User
1982 CJ5
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I ended up going through PartsAmerica.com. At the time they had free shipping on X amount ordered. My local Advanced Auto carries MSD, but didnt have the 2F in stock.
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__________________ - 1982 CJ5 - AMC 258 TeamRushed, MC2100, T-176, Dana 300, Goodyear AT 31's, AMC AM Radio, SuperTop, Tuffy Stereo Console , Black Diamond AT Shocks , CJ Draw Bar, Herculiner The secret to a jeep, especially a cj, is you can't panic. - Mike |
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08-22-2008, 02:11 PM
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#42 | ||||
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Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5
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Quote:
back side of the fender is directly exposed to exhaust heat, and doesn't have air flow. Back side of the grill shell Is a better place, at least there are air vents for the module there, and it's not directly exposed to radiant exhaust heat... I mount mine on the back side of the dash, up high if I can find room... Keeps them cooler, less exposed to flying parts and mud, and on the normal vehicle it would stay dryer, but my '73 leaks in like a sieve! ............ I'd never mount an ignition module under the battery. They lead a hard enough life without having battery drippings and gasses falling on them! that's why Prestolite and DuraSpark modules aren't mounted there. Neither are factory emissions control computers, and most of the the time I'd avoid running ANY kind of wiring harness under the battery! Quote:
It's really cheap insurance! BUT, It's not a deal breaker for a stock engine to have a rev limiter for me since most of them don't have enough compression or camshaft to 'Grenade' themselves... I've broken drive links before, missed shifts, ect, and a 23+ year old smog engine isn't going to kill it's own self normally... I won't run any of the current crop of performance engines without one.... I feel a limiter is mandatory on an engine that is 'Built' and is perfectly capable of sawing the oil pan in half if something gives under full load! Quote:
For a stock 23+ year old engine, or very mildly built/rebuilt engine in our off roaders, the factory distributor will work just fine. There is no way you can compare the MSD CNC machined, billet housing distributor with it's sealed single or dual roller bearings and tight tolerance timing control parts, BUT, You also have to remember that MSD uses the same 'Ford' style Trigger, and in a lot of cases uses the same style Cap & Rotor... If you have a distributor with the same kind of trigger MSD uses, and you can update your Cap & Rotor to MSD for about $30, And you are NEVER going to operate in RPM ranges where the roller bearings on the shaft are needed, what's the point of spending the extra money? Don't get me wrong, If I had an MSD distributor laying around, or I had an unlimited budget, I'd have an MSD distributor in a heart beat... But for a poor old 'Hobby Vehicle' that never turns over 4,000 RPM, A good cap & rotor on the stock distributor works just fine and saves me $400! Quote:
With a V-8 engine, dwell times shorten (do to engine RPM) to a point where the MSD and most other CDI multi spark units, have to back down to a single spark... 5 full current sparks under 2,500 RPM to 3,000 RPM in most cases, depending on the distributor/trigger signal you are using. 5 full sparks per firing cycle means a 500% increase in spark energy in the RPM range you need it most! Since factory (12 Volt) ignitions start to suffer from dwell time shortage at about 2,000 RPM on a V-8, and the problem only gets worse with more RPM... That means by the time you get single spark range out of the CDI module, the spark energy on a factory 12 volt ignition is cut down to about 75% or less and is dropping faster as the RPM goes up... Even in single spark mode, the CDI module will produce a Full Energy Spark every time up to about 10,000 RPM. I know none of us are going to turn 10K, I was using it as an example... CDI module will still have a 100% energy spark at 10K rpm, where a factory ignition's output would be about 13 to 15% of full saturation output if the module could switch that fast at all, which most can't! ------------------------------- Let me go at this from another direction so the guys that don't speak ignition can get the basics... (mJ: Milli Joules, a rating of energy/work done, like horse power ratings) MSD 6 series modules produce about 105 to 115 mJ per spark, every spark. Below roughly 3,000 RPM on a V-8 engine, the spark plug is going to spark 5 or 6 times per firing cycle. That means 525 mJ to 690 mJ for each time the distributor triggers the module. At slower engine crankshaft speeds, there is enough time to deliver this much energy in a USABLE form. You CAN deliver more energy to the cylinder in the same amount of time, but it won't be 'USABLE'... At 5,000 RPM, the spark plug is still going to receive 105 to 115 mJ. At 10,000 RPM, the spark plug is still going to recieve 105 to 115 mJ. Now, Compair that to the average factory module that drive the coil from a 12 volt source... At idle up to about 2,000 RPM, you are going to get pretty close to the 105 mJ. Single spark, so up to 2,000 RPM, your plugs are only recieving 105 mJ. (compared to MSD's 525 mJ minimum) By 3,000 RPM with a factory ignition, the energy at the plug is down to about 89 mJ. By 4,000 RPM with the factory ignition, you are down to about 79 mJ, By 5,000 RPM with the factory ignition, you are down to about 69 mJ, And it just keeps getting worse as the dwell time drops... 12 volt driven ignitions just can't saturate the coil fast enough to keep the spark energy at the proper output levels... CDI ignitions can. they drive the coil with 400 to 600 volts depending on which brand of CDI module you use... -------------------- Now, HEI distributors usually boast a really HUGE output voltage... About 50,000 to 75,000 Volts. When in fact, the average gasoline engine will NEVER need more than 45,000 volts, and not nearly that if you are running a little rich, like all of us carb guys are! With a carb running things 35,000 volts is PLENTY! AND, As a side note, driving the spark voltages WAY up robs the Spark Energy of AMPERAGE... So the HEI has a super high voltage park, but no 'Heet' in the spark to get the fire burning in the cylinder. ALSO, Super high voltage spark is uncontrollable in the distributor cap. It bounces around, goes where it likes, and there isn't much you can do about it. Go above 45,000 volts, and you simply can't control the spark energy in an open space anymore... MSD units keep the coil output voltage reasonable, between 30K & 45K volts, depending on the input voltage to the module and the coil design. Reasonable voltage, lot's of amperage makes for a great spark, and with the plug firing 5 or 6 times, that is a BUNCH of spark duration in the plug gap! Even when it goes to a single spark around 3K RPM, it's still a FULL SPARK, not reduced and getting smaller like the factory induction ignitions do... Questions?
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REMEMBER, 'Free' internet information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it! LINK:Dual Battery Diagrams & Explanations. LINK:Winch, Welding, 'Lend Power' Project, LINK:Water Proofing Ignition, Hubs, Ect., LINK:BSERK's Winch Plate, LINK:AMC V-8 Front Cover Recondition, LINK:How An Ignition Works, LINK:Ignition Swaps '77 Older Jeeps, LINK:'78-'90 Jeep Ignition Upgrades, Last edited by JeepHammer; 08-22-2008 at 02:37 PM.. |
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08-22-2008, 02:22 PM
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#43 |
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Registered User
1982 CJ7
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Good news is I found a Blaster 2F at Autozone. And then I was getting ready to buy a set of Accel 5040R's which show they're for an '84 E150 w/300ci. So I decided to take them out of the box and discovered they were not terminated. I passed on them because I don't need to screw something up in terminating them and have crossfires, arcing and sparking, and even fire. I'm sure to screw something up, and would just as soon have a plug and play set of wires, that are decent ofcourse.
Recommendations?
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Terry ~ USN Ret. 30Sep07 : ) 1982 CJ7 4.2L ~ T-999 ~ Dana 300 ~ SOA Conversion Dana 30/AMC 20 with Truetrac - one piece axle - 4.10's 33" Toyo M/T's on Pro Comp Xtreme Series 1069 Borla header and Catback Exhaust System Jeeperman bumper w/ Ramsey Patriot 8000 - Jeeperman tire carrier/bumper |
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08-22-2008, 02:33 PM
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#44 | |
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Off Road Forever
1986 CJ7
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Off the Grid in Chester Grant, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 9,187
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Over the years, I have found OEM to be the best wires, I have an 8 year old set in right now with an Accel supercoil and they still perform great.
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Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10. Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10) |
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08-22-2008, 02:57 PM
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#45 | |
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Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5
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Canister coil p/n 69167 E-core coil p/n 96624 Best plug wires for under $70, MSD 'Blue' wires.
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REMEMBER, 'Free' internet information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it! LINK:Dual Battery Diagrams & Explanations. LINK:Winch, Welding, 'Lend Power' Project, LINK:Water Proofing Ignition, Hubs, Ect., LINK:BSERK's Winch Plate, LINK:AMC V-8 Front Cover Recondition, LINK:How An Ignition Works, LINK:Ignition Swaps '77 Older Jeeps, LINK:'78-'90 Jeep Ignition Upgrades, |
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