Help with Rush Upgrade and/or ignition problems?

[Mike Romain]

Originally Posted by lopezzi

So worst case scenario, what could I have busted that would need replacing. From what Jeephammer says, possibly my coil, ignition module, coil wire, distributor cap? Could I have busted the whole distributor itself?

It runs. You shorted the coil out. Dead or almost dead Coils can act like your symptoms. A multimeter is going to be your friend, even a $5.00 radio shack one.

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by lopezzi

So what your telling me is more than likely, I fried the coil and that's what's causing the popping/backfiring? Also, how do I test for the "Open" thats causing the snapping? I'm sorry for being so new to this, but this is my first Jeep and I'm still learning how to work on it. In the future, I will try not to be so dumb.

All of us started out as 'Noobies' at one time or another,
Mine start was about 40 odd years ago...

I don't mind the 'Noobie' questions, it's the guys that know better and still do it that bother me!
------------------

Coil is probably gone...
After an overheating like that, I'm sure you didn't do it any good...
And even if it survived the initial over heating, I'm sure the resulting corrosion from the overheat that will build up over time will ruin it...
-------------------

Lets get this straight, you are being fed inaccurate information...
You listed an E-core coil as part of your upgrade, so the resistance will be somewhere around 0.45 to 0.75 Ohm between the low voltage terminals on the coil (+/-).

If you did cook the coil, I suggest you get one from a salvage yard for about $5.
Ford Factory coils are top quality, and they rarely go bad in a stock system, so they are a great buy.
While you are there, get the bracket and connector, they won't cost you any extra...

Check for continuity (the ability to conduct with out a bunch of resistance) through the coil wire.
I use a "Multi-Meter" set to resistance... But you can also use a test light for this...
A reasonable Multi-Meter can be had at Wally-World for about $15, and if you are going to do ANY electrical work besides jump starting someone, it will be your FAVORITE TOOL very quickly...

If the open is so big you are hearing a 'Pop' over the engine noise, I'm sure you will have 0 (zero) conductivity if you use a test light...
Just clip a test light on the battery, use the probe in one end of the coil wire, and use a 1/4" bolt long enough make contact in the other end, and touch the bolt to the negative battery post.
If the light doesn't come on, the coil wire is shot.

ALSO,
When a coil wire has been bent sharply (sharp angle instead of a curve) the conductive material inside will fracture, and the longer you run the vehicle, the more of the material will be burned away... Causing an even BIGGER gap in the conductor!

Make sure your coil wire is SECURELY snapped on the terminals at both ends!
Sometimes the boots will hold the connectors up off the terminals, and you will hear a 'Snap' when the spark jumps that gap...

Most of the terminals will 'Snap' or 'Clip' into place.
You will get a tactile feeling when the connection is properly made because of the 'Click' when the terminal spring clip socket fits over the ball of the terminal head.

You wouldn't believe how many times driveability problems are just things like plug wires or coil wires not properly seated on the terminals, or the wires were bundled together and the bundles are causing induction fire of the wrong cylinder...

Feel free to ask any questions, but please, separate them by double spacing between questions!
I have 'Old Eyes' and trying to read something that is run together is a pain for me!
----------------------------------------

Originally Posted by lopezzi

So worst case scenario, what could I have busted that would need replacing. From what Jeephammer says, possibly my coil, ignition module, coil wire, distributor cap? Could I have busted the whole distributor itself?

Nope, not really...
If the coil wire is cooked, you probably didn't do it.
The sometimes come from the factory that way, with a break in them, and the longer you run them, the larger the 'Open' gets...

The coil is probably cooked, depending on how hot you got it...
Since it was dead grounded, I wouldn't trust it on a trail ride, but since you just got it, you can always return/exchange it for one that 'Works'...
Just tell them this one 'Heats Way Up & Cuts Out'...

The distributor caps sometimes have breaks in the center button material.
The terminal on the top is connected to a graphite center button for better wear resistance.
If the bond between the terminal and the graphite cracks, again, you will burn away the graphite as the ignition runs, and the gap will get bigger.
I've seen more than one 'Discount Store' cap that had an 'Open' between the terminal material and the graphite electrode...

Look for the black 'Module Blood' running out of the module.
If you see it, it's time for a new module...
DON'T HURT YOUR SELF WITH THE $20 & $30 'Discount Sore' modules made in 'China' or 'South Africa'... (and no, I didn't misspell 'Store'...)
They may say, 'China' or 'South Africa' on the box, but you have no idea of where they were actually made, and the quality control is awful!

Since a reasonable replacment module is upwards of $80, and a CDI module is only $120 and will increase your usable spark energy 500% to 1,000%, you may want to consider that as an alternative!

If the module isn't bleeding, you are probably OK on that!
-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Fjguercio

The second green wire out of the used Ford E Coil is used for the capacitor for noise reduction on the Ford Vehicle.

Very close Fred, but not quite!
The capacitor, OR 'Condenser' would connect to the POWER wire at the coil.
To the positive source, not the negative source...
The extra wire on the connector was for engine diagnostics and safety switchs like anti-theft and automatic shut down...

The purpose of the 'Condenser' (actually a capacitor) is to collect and hold stray electrons that would normally ionize the system... And cause radio noise.
The Capacitor acts as a buffer for the flow of electrons when the coil ground is interrupted... Holding them and returning them to the system instead of them 'Bunching Up' and causing a momentary voltage line spike...
And that spike will wind up sounding like a 'Hum' in your radio if you don't' have a capacitor on the positive side of your coil wiring...

With breaker points the purpose was a little different, and are on the negative side of the coil.

When you open breaker points, the gap will try and arc across, and that arc will kill a set of points in nothing flat.
When the breaker points open, there is a flow of electrons moving, and they have to go somewhere!

(Objects In Motion Will Stay In Motion Unless Acted On By An Outside Force)

In this case, the electrons will continue to flow from one breaker point to the other one, causing an arc...
The capacitor gives those electrons somewhere to go & slows the flow at a taper, so the points can open fully, and gain enough air gap the space between them doesn't ionize and arc over.
--------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Mike Romain

The green wire goes to the ignition module and the module pulses it with a negative signal to fire the coil.

Mike, actually, the module SWITCHES the current to ground.
There is no pulsing going on, and that is a common misconception.

If there were pulsing, the magnetic field (Saturation) around the coil windings would move, stop, move, stop, move, stop, constantly expanding and collapsing, and you would never get an effective discharge from the coil...

When the module opens the ground leg of the coil circuit, it needs to be a very clean and quick opening, or you will loose much of the spark energy as the coil builds for discharge...

With a very clean opening, the magnetic field collapses VERY quickly, and you get a good, steady rise in current in the secondary windings.

If the opening of the circuit is on a ramp, like the HEI modules do, then the magnetic field will collapse SLOWLY, and you will loose much of the potential spark energy since the magnetic field isn't moving inward fast enough to create current...

Same with closing the circuit so the coil can charge (Saturate).
The faster the circuit closes, and the more cleanly it closes, the faster the magnetic field will build and the more total saturation time the coil will have...
The 'mushy' opening and closing of the switching transistors in the HEI module make it on par with the DuraSpark module,
Even though the DuraSpark has a current resistor and the HEI is a full line voltage module...
They both put out about the same total discharge currents when all else is even...
AND,
If the twit was silly enough to leave the resistor wire in and use an HEI module...

Well, that's DOUBLE TROUBLE!
That's why I always tell the HEI guys to supply power with a Relay or directly from the ignitions switch, bypassing the factory resistors!
It's a double 'Whammy' if you run the HEI and resistor wire at the same time!

[lopezzi]

Thanks so much for the detailed explanation JeepHammer. You have been more than helpful to me. I will test all the connections tonight and post back what my findings are. Just FYI, all the parts I purchased were Borg Warner parts except the coil I believe. The cap, adapter, rotor, and plug wires were all Borg. They looked like good parts and I've seen other people say they were happy with them.


I do have one more question though. Now, this makes sense to me, but maybe I'm missing something again. The bracket I fabricated is made of bare sheet metal. This metal is bolted to the coil with stainless screws through the 4 mounting holes in the coil. This metal bracket is bolted to the block. No correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the block is grounded. So wouldn't this mean that the bracket is now grounded; meaning the coil is being grounded again, like when I screwed up with the extra green wire? Maybe I don't really understand what a ground is?

[Mike Romain]

Originally Posted by lopezzi

meaning the coil is being grounded again, like when I screwed up with the extra green wire? Maybe I don't really understand what a ground is?

The coil's electrical windings are insulated from the case so grounding the case is OK to do.

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by Mike Romain

The coil's electrical windings are insulated from the case so grounding the case is OK to do.

Mike is 100% correct.
The coil windings are insulated from the 'Rack' or core material so they won't be grounded.

[lopezzi]

Ok just got done testing all the parts and here are my findings:

The Jeep gods must be smiling upon me cause I believe the only thing I broke was the coil.

I looked at the ignition module and there was no tar stuff coming out of it, no anything oozing, so I figured I was good with that. I tested my coil wire with a light test, sound test, and resistance test. Light came on, sound sounded, and resistance measured on my multimeter, so I know I had good continuity. I inspected my dist. cap and nothing looked fried, charred, or disfigured in any way. So next was the coil, I put my multimeter prongs on the two posts that the plug connects into. The multimeter only registered 1 or 0 and sometimes .01. Never did I see it register .45-.75 as JeepHammer suggested, so this is what makes me think the coil is bad.

Also just for good measure, I re-installed my old coil, reconnected the wires and dist. plug wire to see if that would eliminate any of the problems I was having. After this, the Jeep fired up and ran great. No more popping/backfiring, no more clicking noise in the engine bay. Ran solid under high RPM and never cut out. So to me, this means I fried the new coil. I will take it back and see if Oreilly will give me a new one as JeepHammer suggests.


Does this make sense? Should I be worried about anything else? Anything I overlooked?


I have also read about other coils. Some people talk about running an Accel SuperCoil, others I've read about MSD coils. I know MSD is a good brand, but will that offer anything over the E-coil? Or I guess I should ask, is it worth the price difference? I'm tempted as with those coils, I wouldn't have to fabricate my own bracket. Any suggestions on those?

[Fjguercio]

Sorry I miss spoke about the TWO GREEN WIRES on used Ford E Coil. You post mentioned grounded the extra wire (ground usually green) and I knew there was extra wire that can be cut or used later for TAC. I also looked at my link for mounting coil and there are TWO RED WIRES on the Junk Yard Used Ford E COIL. Take a look at my post above and the link to prior post there are a few pics for others to see.

QUESTION does the new Ford E Coil Connector you purchased have more than 3 wires comming out of the connector??????

I would stay with the used Junk Yard Ford E Coil idea if the auto parts store does not replace the coil. I guess they will repace your coil if you follow JeepHammers suggestion.

The Borg Warner parts are good parts, great price in my area, HAVE A LIFETIME WARRANTY, keep your receipt on the cap, rotar, adapter.

Regards,
Fred

This is a used Ford E Coil, connector, mount

[lopezzi]

Originally Posted by Fjguercio

QUESTION does the new Ford E Coil Connector you purchased have more than 3 wires comming out of the connector??????

No, the connector still only has three wires, however the color of the wires are reversed from your picture. Instead of 1 green and 2 red, it has 1 red and 2 green.

[lopezzi]

I was able to return the busted coil. Now I'm deciding between which coil I should get. I saw MSD makes an E-Coil for the Ford (http://www.oreillyauto.com/EW3/ProductDetail.do?id=653246979&line=MSD&itemNumber= 8227&toolsAccMoreIndex=View%20All%20Matches&didSea rchFor=Msd&bid=1209046971566&cycleCount=604&curren tPage=0) and they also make a canister one for the Jeep (http://www.oreillyauto.com/EW3/ProductDetail.do?id=1621292762&line=MSD&itemNumber =8202&toolsAccMoreIndex=View%20All%20Matches&didSe archFor=Msd+Coil&bid=1209047158830&cycleCount=604& currentPage=0).

Any suggestions between the two? I know the Rush upgrade calls for the stock E-coil, so does it make sense to use the MSD E-coil? Will I gain anything over using the MSD canister coil? Thoughts? Suggestions?

[NWA_CJ7]

I would just stick to the directions that were given, I have followed TR's instructions and all works well.

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by lopezzi

I have also read about other coils. Some people talk about running an Accel SuperCoil, others I've read about MSD coils. I know MSD is a good brand, but will that offer anything over the E-coil? Or I guess I should ask, is it worth the price difference? I'm tempted as with those coils, I wouldn't have to fabricate my own bracket. Any suggestions on those?

NOPE.
Can't beat the factory or Junk Yard coil for under a $50 bill.

The factory canister coil puts out very good spark energy, but is VERY slow to charge (Saturate), and looses power very quickly above about 2,000 RPM becuase of the reduced 'Dwell' or saturation times.

The E-core coil charges (Saturates) in about 1/3 the time of the canister coil, so it does SO MUCH BETTER at RPM above 2,000 you just can't believe it!
Lot's of people couldn't get the engine to rev up enough drive at highway speeds before the large cap and E-core coil...

The E-core is slightly less powerful at RPM's below 2,000 or so, but is EXTREMELY more powerful at RPM's above 2,000 as anyone that has done the upgrade can tell you...
Below 2,000 RPM you are usually running a little rich, and in a lower gear, so it's MUCH easier to get the fire lit...

Put that same engine at highway speeds, with a good load on it, at RPM's above 2,000 and the E-core coil really shines!

Personally, I swipe them out of Junk Yards every chance I get!
Even if I get a bad coil once in a while, for $5 I'm getting a bracket I don't have to build, and I'm getting a $14 connector! No worries.

Ford factory coils are VERY good quailty, work great, and grow on trees.
If I have to buy an aftermaket coil, (Some people freak out when you suggest a 'Used' part, even if it has NO MOVING PARTS!) I always go with MSD...
MSD is the very best quailty (And you pay for it!) and,
I've NEVER HAD A WARRANTY ISSUE WITH AN MSD COIL!

Having a 'Known Good' part I can slap on and have confidence in is a VERY good feeling!

[DirtEater]

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

If I have to buy an aftermaket coil, (Some people freak out when you suggest a 'Used' part, even if it has NO MOVING PARTS!) I always go with MSD...
MSD is the very best quailty (And you pay for it!) and,
I've NEVER HAD A WARRANTY ISSUE WITH AN MSD COIL!

JeepHammer,
So, is using an MSD Blaster 2/Blaster 3 better than using the factory canister coil on the 258 if you simply want to use something other than the factory coil and have it pretty much drop in? They're 45K volt coils.

The good thing about the MSD's is that they have a CARB # so the Smog stations can't say too much(in CA).

I got the premium cap, rotor, adapter tonight at Napa, and I need some decent plug wires, but opted not to get the Beldens while at Napa. So, I still need a coil and wires....

[Fjguercio]

Whats your point. The used Ford E Coil, bracket, connector, at the junk yard will cost you $4. Works great. The Napa Belden wires will work well on the CJ. If you want better the MSD is double the price and buy the CDI Ignition at the same time. Great Combo for the CJ, TeamRush, Ford E coil used, new premiium plug wires and a CDI ignition, 3 sparks and many times the spark energy. You have read the posts by JeepHammer and others. Why try and invent a new way.

The pics above show you the mount plate to use. Use the stock bolts, mtd location, and mate to the stock harness connectors with used Ford E Coil.

Put the stock plastic half circle connector housing and the stock oil filled coil in your spares box and you will have a trail back up. A back up you can install with no tools other than a socket to turn the two bolts holding the coil to block.

If you want the red MSD coil to look fancy buy it, it will work. Save the $70, add another $50 and buy the CDI Ignition when your flush you will be happier with the better performance.

Fred

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by DirtEater

JeepHammer,
So, is using an MSD Blaster 2/Blaster 3 better than using the factory canister coil on the 258 if you simply want to use something other than the factory coil and have it pretty much drop in? They're 45K volt coils.

OK, you have about three things going at once, and I need to sort this out in my head... I'm a little slow sometimes!

First, The FACTORY canister coil is just fine to use if it's still working correctly.
After about 23+ years of service, and a lot of abuse from crappy plug wires, distributor caps, rotors, lost engine grounds, ect. I'd bet it's time for a new coil...

The MSD 'Blaster' 2F is a top quality direct replacment for your factory coil. It will fit right in the bracket, your coil connector will plug right into it, and it will do you proud.

No coil is automatically any output voltage.
What they mean by '45,000 Volts' is,
Under exactly the right conditions, the coil will produce UP TO 45K volts.

This is hard to explain, BUT,
The input voltage on the stock Jeep/Motorcraft/DuraSpark ignition coil connector is about 4 to 8 volts when the vehicle is running.
That limited amount of voltage to the coil will limit it's output seriously!

The MSD coils are rated at full magnetic saturation levels and with fast switching, almost digital fast...
MSD coils are rated using an MSD 6 series CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) modules that deliver between 400 and 600 volts to the coil for fuller and faster saturation.

MSD coils assume you have a proper ground to the engine head/spark plugs, which most engines don't, and with Jeep/AMC engines, it's even more of a problem than most!

MSD ratings assume you have a good set of plug that are gapped to about 0.045"...
Believe it or not, the single biggest factor in the coil discharge voltage of ANY coil is the plug gap size!

The MSD Blaster 2F, p/n 8205,
Will in actually produce about 30K volts in a Jeep with factory wiring and ignition module, and the plug gapped to 0.045".
30K is plenty enough to fire ANY overly rich (Read Carb Fed) gasoline engine...

I've seen 500 Horsepower engines that only took 35,000 volts to ignite the cylinders reliably...
Really, to be quite fair about things, anything over 35,000 volts in a carb fed gas engine is a waste of power...

You also need to look past the voltage of an ignition..
Voltage is only one part of the ignition energy required to fire the plug...

USEABLE Spark Energy has three components.

1. Voltage. Any more than it takes to reliably ionize the gap in the spark plug is wasted.
Anything more than 35,000 volts is stealing energy from the other parts of the Spark Energy...

Anything over about 45,000 volts (even with the tall rotor, larger cap, good plug wires, grounded heads) you are going to have spark energy jumping all over the place in the distributor cap! (see 'TeamRush' upgrade)

Anything over 45,000 volts, and you will be firing the wrong cylinders at the wrong times inside the cap,
you will be having your spark energy jumping to ground inside the distributor cap,
you will have two plugs firing at once, robbing the one you need of it's proper chance of correctly firing....

So next time you see an advertisement for "Super Duper 50,000 volt coils or 75,000 volt coils, just shake your head and smile... You are now on the inside of that joke in advertising!
If you want to drive ANY coil's firing voltage up to 50,000 volts, just keep opening up the plug gap!
That coil IS going to discharge, it's just a question of WHERE it's going to discharge, but chances are good that a very measurable portion of the voltage produced isn't' going to it's intended plug!

2. AMPERAGE.
Amperage is the 'Heet' in the discharge.
Voltage and Amperage are mutally exclusive.
If you drive up the firing voltages, the coil will have to convert it's Amperage into Voltage to fill the demand.

High voltage discharges are weak, thready, don't carray any 'Heet' because they were robbed of amperage driving the Voltage way up.

30K or 35K volts with a good hot 'Amperage' discharge is MUCH more likely to get the cylinder lit!
First, the voltage isn't so high it's jumping some where it's not supposed to be,
Secondly, it's getting there will good Amperage and so you have a good 'HOT' spark.

3. DURATION.
Duration is exactly what it sounds like, how long the spark stays in the plug gap.
Even a high Amperage discharge won't do much good if the spark doesn't last long enough to heat/ignite the fuel mixture!
Duration is mostly a design of the coil, but can be ADVERSLY effected by sloppy switching in the module.
The cleaner the 'OFF' switch is, the higher the duration time is going to be...

Now, Saturation times, the time the current is turned 'ON' to the coil is directly effected the same way.
The quicker and cleaner the 'ON' switch is, the more time the coil gets to saturate on the front end.
The cleaner the coil is switched 'OFF' will determine how long the coil gets to saturate before it's discharge cycle starts.

Some modules are very slow to switch, so the power kind of 'Ramps Up' instead of turning 'ON' cleanly, and that cuts into saturation times.
Same with 'Ramping Down' instead of cutting the power off cleanly so you can wait and let the coil saturate to the last possible micro second before you open the Circuit and start the discharge cycle.
Usually, the more saturation time you have, the more power you are going to get out of the coil...

The cleaner the switch, the longer the duration...

I know this seems like a lot to absorb, but we are just scratching the surface of your ignition system!
Never though something so seemingly simple could be so complicated?

Also, the MSD 8227 seems to be about the same price as an E coil at Napa. Is it possibly better than the Napa replacement E coil?

The MSD p/n 8227 is the largest of the factory sized 'E-core' coils, and the MSD version is EXCELLENT!

The advantage of an E-core coil is, if you operate more cylinders, or at higher RPM's, the coil gets less and less time to saturate properly and fully.

The E-core design saturates in 1/3rd the time of the canister coils, so although it puts out a little less Amperage at low RPM's than a Canister coil..
With all else being equal, anything above about 2,000 RPM on a V-8 engine and anything above about 2,500 RPM's on an I-6 engine, and the E-core REALLY starts to shine!

The Canister coils simply don't have time to saturate fully at anything above about 2,000 RPM, and it only gets worse as the RPM increases.
If it doesn't saturate fully, then it doesn't output as well as it does at lower RPM.

An E-core coil saturates in 1/3rd the time, so ideally, it doesn't suffer until about 6,000 RPM!

If you have an I-6 and you operate 'Low RPM'... with less cylinders to fire and low RPM's, the canister coil will do a better job.
If you see the up side of 3,500 RPM's, very often, then you should seriously consider an E-core coil.

There is no question with a V-8, just change to E-core and never look back!
Extra cylinders, and higher normal operating RPM means an E-core is going to pay for it's self right away!

The good thing about the MSD's is that they have a CARB # so the Smog stations can't say too much(in CA).

The sneaky way to do that is get a set of MSD plug wires with the CARB number decal with them, and then use what ever you want after that... The smog nazis don't care as long as it passes and their butts are covered!

I got the premium cap, rotor, adapter tonight at Napa, and I need some decent plug wires, but opted not to get the Beldens while at Napa. So, I still need a coil and wires....

Can't go wrong with MSD for plug wires!
I use the Junk Yard Ford coils, I can barely tell the difference between them and MSD coils.
Ford had some problems with an ignition module they used with fuel injected engines, so as a band-aid, they started using super premium coils.
Their loss is our gain!

For about $5 or $10 bucks, you can get the E-core coil, the bracket to mount it, and the coil connector that normally runs $15 alone!
Can't beat that deal!
(See why I call my web site 'Junk Yard Genius!')

[bigchiconky]

wow, i love my msd set up.