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Unread 04-17-2008, 10:25 PM   #1
lopezzi
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springfield, MO
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Help with Rush Upgrade and/or ignition problems?

Hey everyone. So I have been reading all about the Team Rush upgrade and decided to do it. I bought all the parts and got them all installed over the last couple days. But now I have two questions. I purchased the coil from an 84 F-150 with ECC like the posts said. The plug that I purchased with it had one red wire, and two green wires. I hooked the red wire up to the red wire from the old coil, and one of the green wires with the other green wire from the old coil. I then connected the remaining green wire to the block as a ground. On the other posts about the Team Rush upgrade, it was said to make sure you put an extra ground. When I had the other wire connected to the block, my Jeep would turn over, but it would not start. The coil got extremely hot when it was connected this way. I decided to disconnect that extra ground to see if it would fire up. It did! Great I thought. Do I decided to drive it around to see if my efforts paid off. My Jeep did start a lot easier and seemed to run better with more power. However, at high RPM, the engine started to pop and backfire. I don't have a tach, so I don't know at what exact RPM it would do this. As the engine got warmer, it seemed like it was doing this popping thing more and more, until finally it would hardly run. In the upgrade process, I gapped my spark plugs to .45. Don't know if that's related or not. I also noticed that I could hear a loud clicking, almost buzzing noise, that sounded like it was coming from the coil or distributor when the engine as running.

So I guess my questions are, is it possible to fry a coil? Am I supposed to ground that other green wire somewhere or leave it off? And, what could be causing the popping/backfiring thing?

Oh and its an 83 CJ7, 258 with a Weber 34/34. Sorry for the forever long rant, but I really hope this upgrade will help my Jeep. Im sure I'm missing something.

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Unread 04-17-2008, 10:44 PM   #2
Duble-it
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Lopezzi, sorry I don't can't be of any help but I was thinking about doing this upgrade and was wondering what all I nedd to get. Also how much did it all cost you. I haven't been able to find the post listing all the goodies needed. Good Luck with yours.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 08:06 AM   #3
SuB8HaVeN
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I would guess you need to retard your timing a bit. After doing a Weber 34/34, nutter, and Team Rush on mine I had to retard it quite a bit to get it running correctly. When a motor warms up, the timing will be a little more advanced, so that explains why it runs even worse after it is warm. What happens is that it is probably sparking too late, or even at top dead center or possibly even after. There's a 1/2" bolt that holds the distributor in place, so loosen that (it is underneath the distributor) and then turn your distributor while the Jeep is running and get it to where it runs best then turn the Jeep off and tighten the bolt back. To retard the timing, you will have to turn the distributor counter clockwise.

For Team Rush, you basically need the plug wires, distributor cap, distributor spacer/adapter, and rotor from a 1984 Ford F-150 with the 300 I6. This will work with the factory ignition coil but I recommend upgrading that at the same time. I run an Accell. Make sure to get the parts from Napa as these will have brass terminals on the distributor cap. Going with higher-end plug wires like the Napa Belden or MSD will also help.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 08:12 AM   #4
EtownCJ5
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This is jeephammer's site and will tell you all you need to know about the ignition upgrade.

Here is another thread on the subject:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/im-roll-team-rush-upgrade-questions-537826/
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Unread 04-18-2008, 09:27 AM   #5
lopezzi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuB8HaVeN View Post
I would guess you need to retard your timing a bit. After doing a Weber 34/34, nutter, and Team Rush on mine I had to retard it quite a bit to get it running correctly.
I haven't done the nutter yet. I have read that after the nutter, you need to retime. On one of the other posts, I remember someone saying that the Rush upgrade shouldn't affect the timing. Is this true? I guess it wouldn't hurt to check the timing anyway. Also, when I go to time it, don't I have to remove the vacuum off the distributor or something like that?
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Unread 04-18-2008, 09:32 AM   #6
SuB8HaVeN
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I never removed my vacuum line when I adjusted mine, but I think you're supposed to. I just let it warm up a little and then let it just sit at idle while I adjusted it.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 11:33 AM   #7
lopezzi
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So for the people that have the ford coil, where does that extra ground wire go? When I had it grounded, the engine would not start, it turned over, but would not fire. Once I removed it, fired right up. My only other question/concern is that the bracket I built for it is made of metal and bolted to the block. If I understand electricity correctly, wouldn't this make the bracket, which is in turn bolted to the coil, a ground? Would this cause the backfiring/popping thing?
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Unread 04-18-2008, 12:45 PM   #8
SuB8HaVeN
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I think the backfiring has to do with your timing.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 12:58 PM   #9
jerry can
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I left the extra green wire undone and ran the extra ground from the distributor to the fender well. I believe the extra green wire is hot for something it came off, that would be why your coil is getting hot.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 02:05 PM   #10
JeepHammer
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Quote:
I then connected the remaining green wire to the block as a ground.
Who in their right mind would have told you to hook up the extra module wire as a ground!?
Where did you get such an idea!?

I'm the one that developed this upgrade, and I know I never wrote anything of the kind!

Clip that 'Ground' and use it for what it was intended for, NOTHING or an aftermarket tach!

Quote:
On the other posts about the Team Rush upgrade, it was said to make sure you put an extra ground. When I had the other wire connected to the block, my Jeep would turn over, but it would not start.
The 'Extra Ground' was never an 'Extra Ground'...
I stressed that you should supply the MODULE, not the ignition coil, with a DEDICATED GROUND...
Not an 'Extra Ground'...

Find the black wire coming from your module, trace it over to the harness side of the wiring, and splice in/add a DEDICATED ground to that wire!

Look for the Dedicated Ground in this diagram,



Where do you guys come up with these ideas?...?
I not only gave specific instructions, but I drew pictures!
...I'm at a loss for words here...
---------------------

Quote:
The coil got extremely hot when it was connected this way.
'Ya THINK!
Since you had the coil DEAD GROUNDED,
A SOLIDLY WIRED GROUND, YOU MADE AN ELECTRIC HEATER OUT OF THE COIL AND MOUDULE!

It's a wonder it didn't cook both the coil and the module to the point of catching fire!
I'm sure if you take a look at the module, you will find the 'Tar' looking potting/waterproofing material running down the fender now!
-------------------------------

Quote:
I decided to disconnect that extra ground to see if it would fire up. It did! Great I thought. Do I decided to drive it around to see if my efforts paid off. My Jeep did start a lot easier and seemed to run better with more power. However, at high RPM, the engine started to pop and backfire.
I'm amazed it didn't catch fire!
I'm just speechless it ran at all after that!

I'm sure the 'Popping' is from the burned coil, module, or wiring/connectors in between the two!
--------------------------------------

Quote:
I don't have a tach, so I don't know at what exact RPM it would do this.
Handy gadgets to have. You can acquire a temporary tach/dwell meter used for tune ups for about $15,
Or for about $35 you can get a reasonable steering column mount tach...
--------------------------------

Quote:
In the upgrade process, I gapped my spark plugs to .45. Don't know if that's related or not.
That's normal.
Regapping to about 0.045" will drive the firing voltage to around 40,000 volts, more than enough to fire even the cheapest of gas...
---------------------------

Quote:
Don't know if that's related or not. I also noticed that I could hear a loud clicking, almost buzzing noise, that sounded like it was coming from the coil or distributor when the engine as running.
That 'Snapping' noise is the cause of your problems...
That is an 'Open' in the high voltage circuit somewhere, Coil, coil wire, connector, that the high voltage is having to jump before it can even get to the distributor cap!

Find the 'Open' (open circuit) and KILL THAT PROBLEM!
Otherwise, it's going to cook the coil (if it isn't already) and it's going to cook the module (if it isn't already!)...
-----------------------------

Quote:
So I guess my questions are, is it possible to fry a coil?
Like a weenie dropped in a blast furnace!
Much easier than you think too!

Every time you pull a plug wire off while running, or crank the engine with the coil wire off, you are burning spots inside the coil...
Burn enough spots in the windings, and you get what you are dealing with now!

Now, GROUND YOUR ENGINE HEAD(s) WITH A DEDICATED GROUND WIRE.
Don't expect the engine block ground to do that job with a head gasket in the way, rusted bolts, oil crud built up, ect.
Run a dedicated ground wire from the battery to the head(s) of the engine, then over to the 'Black' wire on the ignition module harness...

This will provide the high voltage that grounds through the plug a direct path to the battery. Inadequate ground to the high voltage circuit will cook the coil...
AND,
When you continue it over to the module ground wire, you give a direct path for the LOW VOLTAGE side of the ignition to do it's thing...
Inadequate ground to the module will cook the module...

A 12 Ga. wire is going to cost you about 20˘with connectors, so it's pretty cheap insurance!
----------------------------------------

Quote:
Am I supposed to ground that other green wire somewhere or leave it off?
Clip it off so it doesn't do any more trouble!
If you were going to work with your ignition in the future, I'd leave it for diagnostic hookup or for a tach later...

Quote:
And, what could be causing the popping/backfiring thing?
The poppign is causing the backfiring...
The popping is... Like I said, you have an open in the high voltage side of the ignition...
The coil it's self, the coil wire, one of the high voltage connections, a bad distributor cap, ect...

Find that noise and kill it, and your 'backfire' should go away...

Last edited by JeepHammer; 04-18-2008 at 02:34 PM..
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Unread 04-18-2008, 02:12 PM   #11
NWA_CJ7
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I think the ground he thought he was trying to hook up was the one for the ignition module. Anyways as stated above just clip and time your ignition and u should be good.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 02:15 PM   #12
Mike Romain
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The green wire goes to the ignition module and the module pulses it with a negative signal to fire the coil. Grounding this wire shorts out both the coil and ignition module. Coils can fail under load when they get hot, especially if the short fried some wiring inside it, the insulation melts really easily.

I would be testing the coil out for resistance with a multimeter before doing anything else to make sure it isn't fried. You should have between 1.13 ohms to 1.23 ohms on a cold coil between the positive and negative posts on the coil. You also need 7700-9300 ohms on a cold coil between the center spark wire and the negative post. You want infinity or no circuit between the negative post and the coil case.

The above was for a 'stock' coil, I missed the e-coil, it should be 0.45 to 0.75 Ohm between the low voltage terminals.
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Last edited by Mike Romain; 04-18-2008 at 07:42 PM.. Reason: New info
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Unread 04-18-2008, 04:57 PM   #13
lopezzi
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Wow. So I guess I really efed up. Well Jeephammer thanks for the in depth description of what I did. So what your telling me is more than likely, I fried the coil and that's what's causing the popping/backfiring? Also, how do I test for the "Open" thats causing the snapping? I'm sorry for being so new to this, but this is my first Jeep and I'm still learning how to work on it. In the future, I will try not to be so dumb.
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Unread 04-18-2008, 05:05 PM   #14
lopezzi
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So worst case scenario, what could I have busted that would need replacing. From what Jeephammer says, possibly my coil, ignition module, coil wire, distributor cap? Could I have busted the whole distributor itself?
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Unread 04-18-2008, 05:48 PM   #15
Fjguercio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lopezzi View Post
Wow. So I guess I really efed up. Well Jeephammer thanks for the in depth description of what I did. So what your telling me is more than likely, I fried the coil and that's what's causing the popping/backfiring? Also, how do I test for the "Open" thats causing the snapping? I'm sorry for being so new to this, but this is my first Jeep and I'm still learning how to work on it. In the future, I will try not to be so dumb.

Close, the SNAPPING sound is the coil output of HIGH VOLTAGE jumping along the path somewhere the is not a good connection on its way to dissy and plugs. The higher the rpms the more effect this would have on your engine running. This is what JeepHammer was saying above, read again.

The second green wire out of the used Ford E Coil is used for the capacitor for noise reduction on the Ford Vehicle. The second green wire can also be used for the TAC is you add one later. I have a nice post on this and will add the link below for Mounting the Ford E Coil

The extra ground is for the input to the Ford DuarSpark Ignition Modual as stated and shown by JeepHammer above.

The local Advance Auto can test your Ford DuraSpark Ignition Modual if you want to have it tested. The coil resistance number above by Mike Romain are for the Jeep Oil Filled Coil. I am not sure what the coil resistance values are for the Ford E Coil you & I have both changed to.

This topic is on the JeepForum if we LOOK IT UP WITH WORDS LIKE:
WE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF USING THE SEARCH FEATURE:

TeamRush Upgrade
DuraSpark Ignition Modual
Ford E Coil
Negative Grounds


Mounting Ford E Coil for Jeep 258 stock location
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/tfi-ford-e-coil-installation-location-bracket-513978/

Cking coil & readings, TeamRush & Ignition Ground Results, gen info
Good General read over.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showt...=498227&page=2



Regards,
FRED

Last edited by Fjguercio; 04-18-2008 at 06:18 PM..
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