[krazyzigzagger]

"Way off" is not a good description. Looking through the hole is not a good indicator of the piston location. The crank shaft will turn close to 60 degrees when the piston is at the top of it's stroke. Since the distibutor has been out, the best way to find TDC on compression is to pull the valve cover and make sure both valves are closed, then line up timing marks and set the distributor.

[ego99]

Originally Posted by Mr.Crowley

what side of the jeep is the timing tab on?..

If it was a rubber lined ballancer like a chevy,I would say the ballancer spun on the snout..Woodruff keys do break..though unlikely they do..

If you line up the timing mark where the piston in the cylinder?..

With the markings lined up right the piston is 1/2 way down on the power stroke. I am going to take it apart tonight. thanks

[Mr.Crowley]

I wonder if some one put an early points era timing cover on a later model engine..The points style has the timing tab on the passenger side,and would be about a half stroke differece..an 86 should have the timing tab on the drivers side..

[ego99]

The timing marks are on the drivers side of the engine. The jeep had a new (jasper I think) engine put into it right before I bought it. Is there any way the new engine doesn't match the old damper? I did all I can tonight, I need to go buy a puller tomorrow. The puller I need will screw into the three bolts in the middle of the pulley/damper and push on the crank bolt right? Or do I need a puller that grasps the outside of the pulley/damper?

[krazyzigzagger]

You are correct about using the bolt holes to pull it with. Good luck with this one.

[Mr.Crowley]

not sure if its physicly possible to swap dampners between the two type engines..Maybe..
most likley either puller would work,but I would go for the one that bolts on and pushes on the crank..

[krazyzigzagger]

One thought....if the engine was assembled with the timing marks on the sprockets aligned as in a "normal engine", the timing would be way off. You may have to pull the front cover to check the alignment.

[ego99]

Cool thanks, I am sure I will be asking you guys more questions tomorrow

[Rollbar]

Pull the oil cap & look @ the second valve & tell us what U see, closed or open?

[Fatman]

First off, have you ever had the motor running? or are you still in build mode?
I'm guessing you have good fuel and your not trying to start from an empty tank.

Pop the valve cover off and get a visual on the rockers, watch the #1 intake close and continue turning the crank clockwise until the chop stick you put in the #1 spark plug hole tops out. THIS is the area of TDC and yes there is several degrees of crank rotation before the piston starts its retreat.
I gotta ask, who would stick a metal coat hanger inside a cylinder and turn the motor?
Look at the harmonic balancer and the timing mark, if your not with in a few degrees , then you have the wrong harmonic or as sugested... worse problems.

Now if the #1 intake closes and you have more than 30* before you top the piston then you have a timing chain / sprocket problem.

Once the motor is set TDC, then pop the cap off the dizzy, remove ALL plug wires, make sure it's set correctly and engaging the oil pump, set it in a position that will give you ample room to turn in both directions.
Mark the area of the rotor direction on the outside of the dizzy, put the cap on and install #1 plug wire closest to that mark. Install the rest in order, by hand turn the dizzy to give a lil bit of advance, snug hold down slightly. hook up timing light, start, set it at 6 - 8* and be done.

Your results may vary, you may have other prob's that may need to be addressed

Gawd, I hope this did not sound like someone else's dissertation lecture.

You should be looking at a cover & harmonic about like this:

[krazyzigzagger]

I gotta ask, who would stick a metal coat hanger inside a cylinder and turn the motor?

My mistake, I thought everybody knows you disconnect the battery and turn the engine manually. I guess you didn't know that? By the way, we are discussing an engine here, not a motor.

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by ego99

I just installed a hei dizzy and have been trying to get it to work all day. After some tips from other members I back tracked and checked timing again. After 30 mins with my wife's finger in the cyl #1 spark plug hole I realized a big problem. When i look through the plug hole in cyl number one and the piston is at TDC the TDC marking on the vibration damper is no where near the engine TDC marking... I have never taken a damper off but imagine that there wouldn't be more that one way for it to go on but I guess not. Has anyone ever heard of this before? What is needed to get the damper off?

OK! How about we take this SCIENTIFICALLY...
One step at a time, and we start at the BEGINNING!
(Instead of jumping around from thing to thing)

Try this,
VERIFY YOUR CRANK POSITION.
Find compression stroke. Put a little something in the #1 plug hole, and when you hit compression, it will blow it out.

Some guys use paint balls, some use corks, some use cotton balls, some just set a marble in there...
As long as it's large enough it doesn't fall in the cylinder it will probably work...
(I was going to use my Girlfriends cooking, but that stuff never lets go of anything it touches! Including pots and pans!)

---------------------------------
You can put your finger OVER the hole,
But NEVER, and I mean NEVER, put you finger IN THE HOLE!

Compression can blow your fingernail off and force fuel into the tissue, meaning in a worst case scenario, you can loose the finger.
Happened to a mechanic I worked with, so it CAN happen!
He lost the first two sections of his index finger before the got the fuel poisoning stopped... And they thought he was going to die!
----------------------------------

Once you get comfortable with the idea there are TWO Top Dead Centers in each firing cycle, you may have a chance here! (firing cycle = Two crank shaft revolutions)

You want to find TDC of the COMPRESSION stroke, not TDC of the exhaust stroke...

Use a wooden dowel rod, or chop stick, or kabob skewer to find the top of the piston.
DO NOT STICK METAL IN THE SPARK PLUG HOLE.

Use the WOODEN stick to find the top of the piston as the crank sends it up, and determine when the piston is at TDC Manually!
This is called VERIFICATION.
Once you have verified TDC on compression stroke, it's all gravy...

Now, with the piston at KNOWN and VERIFIED TDC,
Check the balancer.
The timing mark should line up (more or less) with the 0° (zero) mark on the timing tab.

IF IT DOES NOT...
You probably are a victim of a bad balancer.
The outer ring of a balancer is only held on by rubber to the hub of the balancer.
Over time, oil, road crap, and old age decay that rubber, and the outer ring slips.
Or, in some cases, an idiot removed or installed it with a hammer and broke the outer ring loose,
Either way, if the rubber is 'Domed Up' or cracked, get a new balancer.

IF,
Your Piston VERIFIED at TDC agrees with your balancer mark, then you have just VERIFIED the balancer.

Time to have a look at distributor placement.
Find the #1 plug wire terminal on the cap, and mark it's location on the distributor housing so you know where #1 is located when the cap is off.
Be as precise as you can just 'Eyeballing' it.

Flip the distributor cap, and see if your rotor is pointing at #1 plug wire terminal mark you just made. (more or less, a little bit of lee way is allowed here, but no more than bout 1/4" misalignment.

If your distributor rotor is pointed anywhere else than the #1 plug terminal, YOU HAVE A BIG PROBLEM.
If it's pointed directly AWAY from #1, you are 180 degrees out (Common for amateurs)

If your rotor is pointing at #1 (more or less) then you have just VERIFIED the distributor timing and placement.
---------------------

Now, just for grins,

Turn the crank by hand forward, but only until you detect the slightest movement in the distributor rotor.
Mark your balancer.
Then turn the engine crank the other way, but just until you detect the slights movement in the distributor rotor.
Mark your balancer.

Now, the distance in between those two marks is your timing chain slop expressed in crank shaft degrees.
Just letting you know a reliable way to check the slack in the timing chain...
Anymore than about 5 crank shaft degrees, and you should consider a replacement.

Any more than 10 crank shaft degrees, and you stand a very good chance of having the timing chain 'Slip' on it's sprockets.
This can lead to bent valves and holes knocked in pistons, not to mention the engine running like crap.
-----------------

If you wind up taking the balancer off, DO NOT hammer the new one on!
No matter what anyone tells you about putting a board across it, or using a soft face hammer...
NEVER STRIKE THE BALANCER.

1. It's bad for the balancer, you can easliy knock the hub loose from the outer ring, wedge up the alignment key, ect.

2. ANY IDIOT that hammers on a crank shaft should be walking for the rest of his life!
NO, And I mean NONE, amount of hammering on a crank shaft is allowed!
There is something called a 'Thrust Face' in there, and it's contacting a soft bearing, and if you hammer on the crank, you are hammering on the thrust face.
You might as well take out your bearings and crank shaft, and beat the crap out of them properly...

You are side loading and shock loading what are often cast iron rods.

You are hammering on a CAST IRON CRANK SHAFT!
Iron is fragile and doesn't take shock loading well!

3. You are also beating the crap out of the clutch and input shaft of the transmission!

There is just no other way to say it... If you see someone hammering on a harmonic balancer, that guy is an idiot. And a dangerous one at that!

You should see what happens when a two or three pound chunk of metal does when it comes off that crank shaft balancer at speed!
Since the ring is cast iron also, hammering on it can fracture it, and then just the rubber is holding it together!

Get it up to speed and "BOOM"!
A fist size bullet hole in your hood from the INSIDE!
Brake rotor busted and hub nearly totaled....
The water pump broken completely off the engine!
(Ask me how I know that!...)

[Fatman]

Originally Posted by krazyzigzagger

My mistake, I thought everybody knows you disconnect the battery and turn the engine manually. I guess you didn't know that?

of course you disconnect the battery, but you still don't stick a metal rod in a cyl and cycle the piston.

Originally Posted by krazyzigzagger

By the way, we are discussing an engine here, not a motor.

Your kidding, seriously, you're kidding? Get a life, they're both tomatoes. Scheeeze!

[ego99]

jeephammer I fully understand there are two TDCs and the #1 piston would be at the top of it's stoke during both. The problem is the piston is almost at the bottom of it's stroke when at the damper and engine markings indicate TDC. I am am 100% sure that at this time the engine sits at TDC on the compression stoke using all methods that made sense and my whole sunday.

So today I will get the puller and remove the pully, I have a feeling I am going to find a broken key or damper. As far as don't hammer the new damper in...that makes sense, any tips on getting one in, maybe cool the crank and heat the damper? As far as the timing chain and actual timing of the valves being off I don't think that is the case(At least I hope). In my limited grasp of engine theory the damper could be off for one bad reason or another and have no effect on the valves oponing and closing at the correct time due to the cam gear being inside the engine and assembled with a totally seperate key than the damper. So what I think is the case here either the engine was tuned with a timing light after the old pulleys and damper where put on the new engine and the key broke shortly thereafter OR they screwed it up from the begining and just assembled the dizzy in the same place they took it off and wing'd the timing without a timing light and found an idiot to buy the jeep(enter my name here). Regardless, thanks for the input and I will let you know what I find.

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by ego99

jeephammer I fully understand there are two TDCs and the #1 piston would be at the top of it's stoke during both. The problem is the piston is almost at the bottom of it's stroke when at the damper and engine markings indicate TDC. I am am 100% sure that at this time the engine sits at TDC on the compression stoke using all methods that made sense and my whole sunday.

YUP!
It will DRIVE you crazy the first time you run into a slipped balancer ring!

I got one a while back on a Small Block Chevy that had backed up on the hub, rubbed a hole in the front timing chain cover and was fixing to take the chain out!
The guy that put that balancer on SWORE he didn't hammer on it, but there were hammer marks all over it, and on top of his fresh paint, so I knew the truth...

He tried to time off that balancer (never noticing it was displaced by 2"!) and managed to hammer both head gaskets out of the fresh engine!

Fresh heads, head gaskets, balancer, timing cover and a lot of labor, it was fixed and running again.
-------------------

I tell EVERYONE to VERIFY the crank position,
Then you can verify the balancer, and the distributor position...
Most people ignore that initial finding of TDC of the piston, and just go off the balancer...
So they are lucky 85% of the time, and the other 15% or so wind up singing the blues!

Now that you have found the problem, you are on your way to tall grass!

Skip the balancer...
Locate TDC of compression on #1 cylinder,
And lift, reinstall your distributor with the rotor pointing at the #1 mark you made on the housing.

You won't be able to time it with a timing light, but you CAN get it running that way...

Once you know it runs, then replace the balancer...
Just a test if you want to get it running and make sure something else isn't wrong... Save a second or third trip to the parts store.

So today I will get the puller and remove the pully, I have a feeling I am going to find a broken key or damper. As far as don't hammer the new damper in...that makes sense, any tips on getting one in, maybe cool the crank and heat the damper?

Not heating...
Slather up the crank snout with 'Never-Seize' and try and push your new damper on far enough to get the center bolt started, if you can, then just use the center bolt to pull it into place.
(dont forget to replace the front cover seal while the balancer is off! Very productive use of $3!)

Don't forget to use some lube on the oil seal contact surface, and the mating surface on the new balancer before you install, or you can wipe the oil seal out before it gets oil...

You can also get a longer bolt with the same thread as your center bolt to 'Start' your balancer with, then when it's on far enough, use your factory bolt to finish pulling the balancer on.
Sometimes those fine threaded bolts that large are hard to find, but a single bolt and a large washer is a pretty cheap tool when you can find one!

Most of the auto parts stores have a 'Puller/Installer' tool set, they are always nice, especially if it's a 'Loaner' and you don't have to buy the thing!

As far as the timing chain and actual timing of the valves being off I don't think that is the case(At least I hope). In my limited grasp of engine theory the damper could be off for one bad reason or another and have no effect on the valves oponing and closing at the correct time due to the cam gear being inside the engine and assembled with a totally seperate key than the damper.

It was just diagnostic trick I use while I'm down there messing with the crank, turning by hand to find TDC...
Good to keep track of these things so you know when something does change...

So what I think is the case here either the engine was tuned with a timing light after the old pulleys and damper where put on the new engine and the key broke shortly thereafter OR they screwed it up from the begining and just assembled the dizzy in the same place they took it off and wing'd the timing without a timing light and found an idiot to buy the jeep(enter my name here). Regardless, thanks for the input and I will let you know what I find.

Lots of guys set timing with a vacuum gauge, and the balancer won't effect that.

I imagine the PO either never set the timing, or had someone get it running so he could sell it because he didn't understand what was wrong with it...

I've purchased vehicles cheap because they 'Had a Rod Knocking' (alternator clicking, broken rocker arms, exhaust leaks)
Or were 'Blowed Up'... (Choke closed, ignition timing off, timing chain slipped, carb inlet valve stuck open, exhaust leak)

I purchased my current little CJ-5 from people that said it was 'BLOWED Up'... I tried to tell them it was an exhaust leak, I believe in being honest, but they were having none of it... and who am I to argue with a $500 CJ-5 with factory V-8, good frame and mostly unmodified!

I changed the broken rocker arm, got #5 firing again, and welded up the exhaust leak, but the headers are old and cheap, and I'm pretty hard on exhaust systems, so it's pretty much had an exhaust leak for the past three years..