[Mike Romain]

Originally Posted by jm708

Sorry to high-jack the thread but I'm in information overload... I have been through three ignition module in a month and just want to drive my Jeep with out the worry of being stranded every week.

Well, the 360 wasn't stock in any CJ as far as I know.

Two things I know of cause ignition modules to fail, one is a punky ground on the ignition system. The hold down foot for the distributor is the system ground. You might want to put a real ground tag on the black wire going to the distributor.

The other thing is Wells modules. I have literally seen more of those come dead in the box than working ones. Any brand is better....

[jm708]

Sorry I ment the motor is stock. I just want to get rid of the ECM and would like to know what i can do to get rid of it with something less pron to fail that doesnt cost $400.00 and can handle putting in myself. Thanks Justin

[Mike Romain]

Originally Posted by jm708

Sorry I ment the motor is stock. I just want to get rid of the ECM and would like to know what i can do to get rid of it with something less pron to fail that doesnt cost $400.00 and can handle putting in myself. Thanks Justin

Have you looked at something simple and easy like the HEI 'module' with your stock distributor? JeepHammer I think has some schematics for that.

Here, I found it, this is a good read: Junk Yard Genius.com 'Stealth HEI Page

[Fjguercio]

Originally Posted by jm708

Sorry to high-jack the thread but I'm in information overload... I have been through three ignition module in a month and just want to drive my Jeep with out the worry of being stranded every week. I was looking at the Summit Digital CDI Multispark Ignition ( MSD Ignition 6200 - MSD 6A CD Ignitions - Overview - SummitRacing.com ). Is this the one I need to get rid of the ignition module? I have the amc 360 with what appears to be stock set up minus the holly truck avenger carb 670 cfm, i just put in, with the edelbrock intake. I am not looking to hot rod or extreme off road just something mild to get me from point a to b with occasional off road. Thanks for the help. Justin

JM708,

Yes that CDI will work fine. You can also buy the summit digital version and will be approx $130 if you want to save a little bit. They also have a connector that you can splice into the the CDI wires that will plug right into the DuraSpark signal wires. Order at the same time is like $10 and summit can help you find the item. Make sure you twist these signal wires 2-3 turns per inch to keep noise/induced currents down. Also run this wire by itself, close to fender well or firewall when ever possible, the metal acts like a shield. NEver run this signal wire parallel // to any other switched or higher power wires, like the coil, or the plug wires it will cause problems.

As said above, you can ground the black wire into the igniton modual on the drives fender. I cut it on harnes side 6" back, solder in aux ground wire and run to fire wall. The HEAD(s) also need to be gounded. These two gounds if weak can kill the DuraSpark and make any igntion run poor. The china junk for the DuraSpark Ignitiion replacements do fail can take a few till one hangs in there,,,,, it is recommended that you get the prem version for $70 rather than the cheap version at $30 or so. There is a big difference. Neither one is the same as the OEM ones. I still have the 30 yr old original and still works as plug/play back up to my CDI.

CDI is the WAY to GO great choice. Still need to ground the heads by the way.

Hope that helps,
Fred

[scottymac62]

Sorry guys but Summit does not make the $130 CDI anymore. Their new digital CDI box cost $160 now.

Summit Racing SUM-850610 - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Multi-Spark Digital Capacitive Discharge Ignitions - Overview - SummitRacing.com

[jm708]

Thanks for the info. Mike, I don't think I want to try making one. With my experience I envision the jeep burning to the ground and taking the house with it. Think Ill order it soon before I see my heep on a flat bed again.

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by jm708

Sorry to high-jack the thread but I'm in information overload... I have been through three ignition module in a month and just want to drive my Jeep with out the worry of being stranded every week. I was looking at the Summit Digital CDI Multispark Ignition ( MSD Ignition 6200 - MSD 6A CD Ignitions - Overview - SummitRacing.com ). Is this the one I need to get rid of the ignition module? I have the amc 360 with what appears to be stock set up minus the holly truck avenger carb 670 cfm, i just put in, with the edelbrock intake. I am not looking to hot rod or extreme off road just something mild to get me from point a to b with occasional off road. Thanks for the help. Justin

The 'Cheap' way to get a reliable module is to use a GM HEI module with your distributor....
Easy to do, reliable and cost effective (about $25).
Link: http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEI01.html

THIS WILL NOT BURN YOUR VEHICLE DOWN!

And it takes the computer out of the loop if you attach directly to the distributor instead of just plugging it into the harness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

An HEI style distributor is an 'Upgrade' for the older Jeeps with unreliable ignitions.
Up to about '77 when they all had breaker points or Prestolite ignitions that left people walking home quite often.

From '78 to '86 in CJ's, you got a Motorcraft Distributor that was a very good unit,
It's RUGGED, RELIABLE, And tuned to your specific AMC engine.
---------------------------------------------

If you choose to change the distributor to one of the after market clones,
(and it's ENTIRELY your choice)
Then you are just switching from one FACTORY style ignition system to another FACTORY style ignition.

You are still getting a SINGLE SPARK of limited Voltage, Amperage & Duration with either unit, so they are very similar in USABLE SPARK ENERGY output.

There really is no problem with the factory Motorcraft distributor you can't upgrade,
And save yourself the cost of a HEI style distributor you will have to check throughly and tune to your engine again.

Large cap, rotor, plug wires ('TeamRush' upgrade) cleans up all the 'Issues' with the Motorcraft distributor and makes it a VERY formidable system that can take MUCH higher voltages and amperages without problems.
(And MUCH easier/cost effective than switching to one of the HEI clones)

If you swtich to a HEI clone for your engine,
You are starting over with the same issues of distributor cap, rotor and plug wire problems,
PLUS,
You will have to tune the HEI to work with your engine correctly, and that can be a REAL pain in the butt if you aren't very familiar with tuning distributors...
(Which virtually no one is since distributors are no longer used in vehicles or taught in auto/diesel schools anymore!)

Once you upgrade the cap, rotor and plug wires so the USABLE SPARK ENERGY can reach the spark plugs without doing something stupid,
(and this really is all about making Usable Spark Energy, then delivering that spark energy to the plugs on time)
Like jump to ground inside the distributor cap,
Jump to the wrong plug wire terminal in the distributor cap,
Ground out or 'Leak' out of the plug wires before it gets to the spark plug,
Or can't ground properly when it gets to the spark plugs...

Once the spark energy is getting to the spark plugs,
THEN, and ONLY THEN, should you worry about pumping up the AMOUNT of spark energy!...
And remember, the 'TeamRush' upgrade has helped thousands of people,
And it's nothing more than upgrading the CONDUIT the spark energy uses to get to the plugs!
It changes NOTHING in regards to making more spark energy at the ignition coil!
(Amazing how much spark energy is lost in transfer!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Then you can upgrade to something like a CDI module.
Normal ignition modules (Factory Type) make ONE discharge happen at the ignition coil...
And that spark discharge can be very weak...
Weak spark means the flame front in the cylinder either doesn't get started at all,
Or it doesn't get started well enough you get a clean burn 'Flame Front' across the combustion chamber.

With a CDI module over ANY factory module (Motorcraft DuraSpark or GM HEI style),
You will get 500% to 600% MORE SPARK ENERGY to the plugs to get that ignition started in the combustion chamber.

A Factory Ignition uses about 12 volts to power up the ignition coil for the spark discharge...
And relatively speaking, it's VERY SLOW about doing that one simple job...

A CDI module uses a bank of Capacitors and Digital Switching to throw about 400 Volts to the ignition coil, and 400 volts will charge that ignition coil MUCH FASTER, and MUCH MORE THROUGHLY!
So fast in fact, you can fire the ignition 5 or 6 times in the same amount of time it takes a 12 volt coil to discharge ONCE!

So,
Instead of getting ONE weak, underpowered, and short duration discharge from a factory type module,

You get 5 or 6 High Powered discharges...
That's 5 or 6 tries to get that cylinder to fire correctly!
------------------------------------------

You can also look at this from the 'Dollars & Sense' viewpoint...

Upgrading your current distributor is about $35 for the best in cap & rotor.
Link: MSD Ignition 8414 - MSD Cap-A-Dapts - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Upgrading your current plug wires is about $60...
(and no one seems to understand how important proper plug wires are!)
Link: MSD Ignition 3119 - MSD Heli-Core Spark Plug Wire Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Now you are actually ready to contain higher spark energies over the stock Jeep cap, rotor, plug wires...

Then use something to take advantage of that capability,
Link: Summit Racing SUM-850602 - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Multi-Spark Digital CD Ignitions - Overview - SummitRacing.com

You are still well under the cost of a 'Good' HEI distributor, (MSD or DUI)
You will be making and DELIVERING 500% more spark energy to the plugs than an HEI can make,
And you won't have to spend hours re-tuning the distributor to fit your engine since you didn't change the distributor!

There are even adapters to make your install a snap!
And you get to keep your factory ignition in place in case something happens to the CDI module... You get DUAL/REDUNDANT ignitions this way!

This one connects the CDI module to the ignition power, so you don't have to cut and solder into the factory wiring harness...
Link: Summit Racing SUM-850520 - Summit Racing® Ford Duraspark Ignition Adapter Wiring Harnesses - Overview - SummitRacing.com

This one plugs into the Facotry Motorcraft distributor to adapt it to the CDI wiring plugs...
Link: MSD Ignition 8869 - MSD Wire Adapters - Overview - SummitRacing.com

This one is a 6 foot 'Extension Cord' that lets you move your new CDI module someplace SAFE, so it's not in the heat, mud, crud of the engine bay!
Link: MSD Ignition 8862 - MSD Replacement Cables - Overview - SummitRacing.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the choice is up to you...
HEI is just another Factory style ignition, single spark, weak, comes with it's own set of problems if you switch...

The 'Cheap' clones are eating up engines, and the expensive ones still need tuned and don't give you any more spark energy than the factory ignition you have...

Upgrading your current distributor cap, rotor, plug wires ('TeamRush' upgrade) will give you the capability to run MUCH higher energy spark to your plugs,

CDI module will give you that much higher spark energies since your distributor cap/plug wires can handle it!

More cost effective and less trouble than wondering about an aftermarket HEI!

On the other hand, some people just like the 'Clean' look an an HEI,
So it's what ever you want to use!
We are all Jeepers, We will support you what ever way you want to go!

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by guysnydr

Hi, if I swap to an HEI on my 258 can I do away with the CDI box on the inner fender or do I still need that as well? I'm talking about the aluminum box that mounts on the backside of the driver fender well. I would love to kill two birds with one stone and just wondered if this can be gotten rid of at the same time with the factory distributor. Thank in advance. - Guy

YES.
You have an AMC I-6 Engine, and you have a perfectly good Motorcraft distributor in place, but you CAN switch to an HEI and drop the module off the drivers side fender...

I suggest you use a factory GM HEI distributor and switch drive gears yourself,
Or buy one of the 'Safe' ones from DUI or MSD,
The 'Cheap' ones have been causing all kinds of problems with AMC engines.

It would be MUCH MORE cost effective to Upgrade your current distributor with new cap, rotor, plug wires ('TeamRush' upgrade style) than to scrap the distributor,
But if you want an HEI, we will support you in that change...

[CSP]

Originally Posted by Fjguercio

The problems with HEI in AMC is both the 6 and 8 cylinder. If you looked/followed the quotes and links you would see both engines are reported many many many times. Both have hard gears in various parts of the market.

And if you paid the slightest bit of attention to the details you'd see that it's the HEI clones and the drive gears they come with that cause problems and you'd also notice that I have a factory GM HEI, not a clone. Mine works perfectly and even better since I've moved the timing controls to the ECM that also controls my EFI system.

You would also notice that I said that my original ignition was Prestolite and that JeepHammer himself agrees that GM HEI is an upgrade when you have this or a points ignition system (missed that part didn't ya).

It was Jeephammer's recommendation (on the offroad.com forums) back in '98 that led me to the GM HEI to begin with since you apparently are so mesmerized by his recommendations.

The devil is in the details Fred. You might pay attention to the details instead of lumping everything into one bucket and using conditions like "all" or "none". I'm guessing that you have too much information at your disposal for quoting purposes to honestly decipher what it is you're quoting.

Pay attention Fred and be careful with how you lump everthing together!

[Fjguercio]

CSP,

So your lump statement this is only problem for V8 Jeeps and Fred has problems getting this right... Do you even read what you type???

[CSP]

Nice try to back-pedal.

I said that your information was V8 specific, not that it was only a problem for the V8. The I6 has the option of using a factory GM application, so the V8 information you gave is not 100% applicable if you have the I6.

When using a factory GM HEI and a quality drive gear there is no problem with gears shredding in the I6.

There is no factory GM HEI that can be used with the AMC V8 without other modifications.

Again, one-size does not fit all when it comes to your "research".

[Fjguercio]

Originally Posted by guysnydr

1979 Jeep w/ Ford DuraSpark
Hi, if I swap to an HEI on my 258 can I do away with the CDI box on the inner fender or do I still need that as well? I'm talking about the aluminum box that mounts on the backside of the driver fender well. I would love to kill two birds with one stone and just wondered if this can be gotten rid of at the same time with the factory distributor. Thank in advance. - Guy

Originally Posted by CSP

Just to counter Fred's V8 specific information, which isn't applicable to you since you don't have a V8, the HEI in my CJ has been in since 1998 and hasn't given me a stitch of trouble. My CJ had Prestolite ignition originally which is garbage, so a distributor swap was necessary for me regardless. My distributor is a factory GM HEI, not a clone or aftermarket piece.

Sorry to disagree.... again as stated prior, the HEI market right now has hardened gears for BOTH the V8 and I6 amc engines. This is well documented if you look a bit. Quite sure of this.

Originally Posted by CSP

It's when you get into the aftermarket "kits'' (like CRT in particular), where the quality may be questionable, that causes problems.

I agree with the CRT but not just them... any HEI purchased now other than the MSD or DUI is most likely a problem. They are more expensive at $400 or so..... so why not just get the CDI Multispark ignition for $160 (now w/rev limiter)

Originally Posted by CSP

The factory ignition system is good (if you have a CJ that's 78 or newer) and better when you upgrade it, but don't let a bunch of information regarding V8 cam and distributor gears scare you away. You don't have a V8 and Fred seems to have trouble with keeping information relevant to the particular CJ you are working on.

Well looks like you are the one with problem keep up with this post.... see his sign in by name he has a 1979 Jeep... that is a DuraSpark.

Second time you are total WRONG and miss informed on hard gears they are being sold for V8 and I6 engines. Look at hammers web post and the inter threads I provided above.

So even when we show you the RELAVANT INFO & LINKS YOU , CSP, have a hard time keeping up.

Originally Posted by CSP

And if you paid the slightest bit of attention to the details you'd see that it's the HEI clones and the drive gears they come with that cause problems and you'd also notice that I have a factory GM HEI, not a clone. Mine works perfectly and even better since I've moved the timing controls to the ECM that also controls my EFI system.

Who cares what you have GM or not.... and this is about the poster help not what you have......

Originally Posted by CSP

You would also notice that I said that my original ignition was Prestolite and that JeepHammer himself agrees that GM HEI is an upgrade when you have this or a points ignition system (missed that part didn't ya).

Who cares what you have GM or not....

Did you miss that I gave the poster JeepHammer article on DuraSpark & HEI comparison like in post #4..... NOT to mention that if do use the MSD or DUI Ignitions you could also do a Summit CDI $160 and Rebuilt DuraSpark Dist $50 (like your case Presotlite / NOT APPLICABLE/NEEDED in this case/thread). Much better igntion by 500% to 600%, per hammer, than the HEI or the DuraSpark and is HALF THE PRICE of the MSD or DUI makers of HEI

Originally Posted by CSP

It was Jeephammer's recommendation (on the offroad.com forums) back in '98 that led me to the GM HEI to begin with since you apparently are so mesmerized by his recommendations.

Hey I am glad it worked out for you..... I do not think the hardened gears were a issue ten years ago..... but since they stopped making the gears here in the USA the hardened gears are a problem and users need to be aware of this.

Originally Posted by CSP

The devil is in the details Fred. You might pay attention to the details instead of lumping everything into one bucket and using conditions like "all" or "none". I'm guessing that you have too much information at your disposal for quoting purposes to honestly decipher what it is you're quoting.

Pay attention Fred and be careful with how you lump everthing together!

Do not agree again..... CSP

I am one of the most detailed people you will every come across. I miss very little. From the above looks like you missed lots on this post and how the HEI PROBLEMS actually pan out with the AMC Engines.

AS for the use of quotes..... With folks like you SPEWING FALSE CLAIMS that the HEI is ok and the 258 appications are OK. Its a wonder folks here are not chewing up more engines. Work/HELP like I am doing is helping the JeepForum users.... I see many less quotes of "my engine died do to the use of HEI with hard gears. I took a few quotes from JeepForum users that had failures with HEI use, usually complete engine failures, or could not control the spark energy for starting CJ, or the advance curve was so far off the jeep would not run well and knock. They show the thread like and verbage.... what better way is there to validate and real and common problem to save the JeepForum Good Folks from ENGINE FAILURE....

and false junk like you are posting than to use past quotes and real life feedback.

Anyone reading this click on the links provided and you will read how common, how bad this is. BE CAREFULL

Fred

[swatson454]

Alright, settle down guys. You're starting to sound like me, lol. I'm thinking that we should do an HEI swap sticky here. Along with all of the pertinant, technical information it should be summarized by saying: "Don't waste your money on ebay buying cheap crap that has the wrong gear and the "Stroker McGurk" timing curve!" If you can't do it correctly, which always costs some coin, just say no.

I'm not sure that someone can say that this dizzy is 500% better than that one or that a larger cap and rotor will increase your performance by 20% unless someone can provide accurate, before vs after, documented results so we should leave that out. Don't get me wrong, I love theory and have based many of my engine builds on theory just because my curiosity overpowers the resistance required to open my wallet. But I'm not about to post numbers like that.

However, I've only been on JF for 6 months and could definitely justify a sticky.

Shawn

weber 32 36

[Mike Romain]

Originally Posted by Fjguercio

I miss very little.

http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/rotfl2.gif
ROTFLMAO

Man I needed a good laugh today, thanks.

[CSP]

Originally Posted by Fjguercio

Well looks like you are the one with problem keep up with this post.... see his sign in by name he has a 1979 Jeep... that is a DuraSpark.

No, I did notice that right away. Not everyone that reads this thread will have Duraspark though. The audience is much broader than the OP, which is why I specifically mentioned (and you directly quoted) "The factory ignition system is good (if you have a CJ that's 78 or newer) and better when you upgrade it". Again, not everyone who sees this thread, either now or in the future, is going to have a '78 or newer CJ though.

Second time you are total WRONG and miss informed on hard gears they are being sold for V8 and I6 engines. Look at hammers web post and the inter threads I provided above.

Never said that they weren't being sold for the I6. You take what I did say completely out of context to come to a conclusion that is incorrect again. I did say that you can find a quality gear and distributor to use with the I6. Let's try one more time. The hard gears/lack of quality in the clones is 100% correct for the AMC V8. For the AMC I6 there's a way to do it safely using a factory GM HEI and a driven gear made by MSD for example.

Who cares what you have GM or not.... and this is about the poster help not what you have......

You chose to take issue with my claim that my HEI is working flawlessly and has been for over ten years now. You take issue with my claim and I'm going to explain to you what equipment I have and why it works flawlessly. Perhaps you missed the others in this thread who also have been using an HEI in the I6 with no problems?

Much better igntion by 500% to 600%, per hammer, than the HEI or the DuraSpark and is HALF THE PRICE of the MSD or DUI makers of HEI

Guess what. Not everyone is one of hammer's parrots regardless of his relevant background and experience. That's life. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people have installed HEI ignitions in their CJ with the I6 with complete satisfaction.

Hey I am glad it worked out for you..... I do not think the hardened gears were a issue ten years ago..... but since they stopped making the gears here in the USA the hardened gears are a problem and users need to be aware of this.

I'm not disagreeing that users need to be aware of this. Quality gears can still be found to this day though and you've missed that part. Here, let me post something relevant to the I6 that you might actually believe:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

I suggest you use a factory GM HEI distributor and switch drive gears yourself,
Or buy one of the 'Safe' ones from DUI or MSD,
The 'Cheap' ones have been causing all kinds of problems with AMC engines

Originally Posted by Fred

I am one of the most detailed people you will every come across. I miss very little. From the above looks like you missed lots on this post and how the HEI PROBLEMS actually pan out with the AMC Engines.

I'm intimitely aware of the problems that can (can doesn't mean they will) pan out. I'm not disagreeing with that fact. Unfortunately you're too stubborn or arrogant to see that my point is that HEI can be done safely with the I6 and for some people with inferior ignition systems (again, those with points or Prestolite specifically and not just the OP) it's a good choice. It's too bad you can't get past trying to put words in my mouth to see that part. I've not said that your information is incorrect. It's just incomplete in regards to the AMC I6.

Your stance on using HEI is like chicken little saying the sky is falling. Not everyone is an idiot and if you are careful with the parts you use it can be a viable option and an upgrade if you have points or Prestolite.

I'm done arguing this as it's like trying to pound a railroad spike with a jeweler's hammer. You want to pick and choose what you want to read then twist my words for your benefit. Fine. From what I've seen of your posts here, that's what you do.

Hopefully the others reading this can see that with proper parts selection that HEI is an option that can be done without worry.