[guysnydr]

Hi, if I swap to an HEI on my 258 can I do away with the CDI box on the inner fender or do I still need that as well? I'm talking about the aluminum box that mounts on the backside of the driver fender well. I would love to kill two birds with one stone and just wondered if this can be gotten rid of at the same time with the factory distributor. Thank in advance. - Guy

[jscherb]

A GM HEI distributor does not need the Jeep CDI box.

[Fjguercio]

You can also buy a Summit MultiSpark CDI Igntion, $130, and use it with your stock duraspark distributor. Get your self and new or used $4 Ford E coil and have a igntion that is 5 times better than stock and 5x better than the HEI with non of the MAJOR PITFALLS of the HEI. I HATE HEI DISTRIBUTORS in the AMC engines. They have perfromance issues, fit issues, spark to ground issues, maintenance issues with heat sink grease, and is not that good a ignition. It is EQUAL or LESS of a ignition to the what you have stock.

Read this links and the quotes below..

JeepHammer’s Knowledge Base Web Site

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEIcompair.html





From Thread: CRT HEI cam gear question

Originally Posted by dirtbagofva

I am currently fixing the shreaded cam gear in mine. Robert

Originally Posted by jaykump

I just bought a HEI dist. from 4WD along with a new cam gear from the same place......30 miles later I don't have a cam gear.....has anyone else had issues with 4wd Dist.? l

Originally Posted by Dislsmoke

I had a CRT in my 258. after one year the timing was off and I could not adjust it. Pulled the dizzy and found the gear was a little chewed and also the bottom bearing in the distributor was shot

Originally Posted by Dislsmoke

Good luck. Dan

Originally Posted by Pacfanweb

His company did the testing for most of the aftermarket HEI makers, and almost all of them had the hardened cam gears at one point.

Originally Posted by Splinter

I wish I had seen this thread earlier. I purchased a GM HEI from E-Bay for $119. The seller has sold quite a few. It doesn't say that it is made by CRT. The name is Dragon Fire. I checked the gear and it is so hard a 1/8 inch cobalt drill bit will not touch it. I am at a loss for what to do!!

Originally Posted by Andy5150

the Proform I put in my amc 360 The problem with this ditributor for me was that the MSD gear I bought for it would bind the distributor to the point where it was hard to turn. I ground down the housing slightly to get a little play in the shaft with the gear installed. 4000 miles later, the gears look good, but Jeephammer was correct about the housing being to long. If you,re going to run one these, at least get the MSD gear, and check everything.

Originally Posted by ego99

I too bought the CRT HEI off ebay a while ago, I took out the HEI and to my dismay the HEI was having my cam gear for lunch.

Originally Posted by bigf350sd

I also posted this exact same thing on the Jeepz.com forum, but I wanted to post it both places in order to get more feedback on the subject. Well, I unboxed my HEI "clone" cheap Dragon Fire distributor today and proceeded to check it out, gear hardness, length, cap for brass terminals and flaking electrode, etc...and found out a couple of things. First off, the gear was hardened, a drill bit wouldn't even scratch it, .

Originally Posted by Andy5150

I installed a Proform HEI in my 360. I would have done the upgrades to the stock distributor, but I had already bought the HEI. Luckily, I at least used the MSD gear, because Proform advertises a hardened distributor gear. I just found this out today; its as if they consider it a desireable feature. Mine seems ok after 5500 mi.,but I feel as if I dodged a bullet.

Thread: JeepForum.com - Registration

Originally Posted by maxamillion

alright so i was driving into work one day and all of a sudden i hear a huge back fire and the engine just killed try to start it to hear some major grindage.

Originally Posted by maxamillion

i pulled the distributor and the teeth on the gears were like ground to sharp edges. i want to keep a 304. i was lookin around on craigslist and i saw a couple of 304's with bad cam gears so now im wondering.

Originally Posted by Rollbar

Yep, when replacing the dizzy gear it is recommended to change out to a matching cam gear. AMC's eat'em up & there is a lot of reports on the in the AMC community. Stinks.

Thread 360 distributor drive gear just shredded itself

Originally Posted by mike06X

I can see the drive gear is mashed up good; the gear on the distributor (proform billet hei style) looks like its brand new.

Originally Posted by mike06X

Should the entire engine be pulled and disassembled due to metal shavings ending up who knows where in oil passages and bearings?

Originally Posted by scrible

I had a bad experience with the Bulltear set. Find you an MSD set, mine has been working great for a good while now and I push it hard.

Originally Posted by toddrod97

Ok guys I too fell for the 4WD distributor gear trick. My stock cam gear was shot in less than 100 miles. Lesson learned. had no idea that a new distributor gear was capable of such swift shredding. Its only money....

Originally Posted by mike06X

I ended up using a set of dist/cam gears from bulltear; i too had to take .020~ off the dist gear so it wouldn't bind the hei distributor shaft, i gave it a little play, like the motorcraft had,

Thread: Replaced cam gears now no oil pressure

Originally Posted by tball

I recently made the swap in a 304 to hei ignition and as everyone has said it will eat up your cam gear if the gear on the dist is hardened steel and it did.

Originally Posted by tball

I recently replaced the cam gear , dist gear, and timing set. I put everything back together and fired it up. It ran for a minute and the lifters started tapping, I shut it down instantly, I'm pretty familiar with engines so I tried priming the oil pump but I guess I must be doing something wrong . any ideas on the best way to go about priming it. I tried using a screw driver but no luck.
I bought my cj about 4 months ago and still have not been able to get her to the trails and it's killing me.

[guysnydr]

WOAH I had no idea. I don't need all that trouble, thats for sure. I just need something to get it running smoothly again, she keeps shutting off on my periodically out of the blue and alway immediately restarts, gotta be either the distributor or the CDI box. I see a hairline crack in the magnet in the distributor so that could be the cause too.

[CSP]

Unless you've installed an aftermarket CDI ignition (like MSD for example), that isn't a CDI box. It's just an ignition module.

There are countless threads here on ignition upgrades. Search on "Teamrush" for more info that you'll want to read.

Just to counter Fred's V8 specific information, which isn't applicable to you since you don't have a V8, the HEI in my CJ has been in since 1998 and hasn't given me a stitch of trouble. My CJ had Prestolite ignition originally which is garbage, so a distributor swap was necessary for me regardless. My distributor is a factory GM HEI, not a clone or aftermarket piece.

It's when you get into the aftermarket "kits'' (like CRT in particular), where the quality may be questionable, that causes problems.

The factory ignition system is good (if you have a CJ that's 78 or newer) and better when you upgrade it, but don't let a bunch of information regarding V8 cam and distributor gears scare you away. You don't have a V8 and Fred seems to have trouble with keeping information relevant to the particular CJ you are working on.

[foggybottombob]

I have a junkyard Chevy HEI in my CJ and have run it for at least 4 years. I don't have any problem with it at all that I can detect. I got more perceived horsepower increase from that than I did putting a 4.0 head on the 258. Maybe HEI's just like Colorado.

[swatson454]

HEIs are great ignitions and have worked very well in many engines for a VERY long time. Some people are stuck beating the same old drum. If you find that it's delivering more advance than your engine needs and you don't know how to properly recurve it, fine. But there's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water! They're great dizzys

Holley Carburetor

[jscherb]

Originally Posted by swatson454

HEIs are great ignitions and have worked very well in many engines for a VERY long time. Some people are stuck beating the same old drum. If you find that it's delivering more advance than your engine needs and you don't know how to properly recurve it, fine. But there's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water! They're great dizzys

I've had one in my daily driver 258 for the past 3 years. Works great!

[Fjguercio]

Originally Posted by CSP

Unless you've installed an aftermarket CDI ignition (like MSD for example), that isn't a CDI box. It's just an ignition module.

There are countless threads here on ignition upgrades. Search on "Teamrush" for more info that you'll want to read.

Just to counter Fred's V8 specific information, which isn't applicable to you since you don't have a V8, the HEI in my CJ has been in since 1998 and hasn't given me a stitch of trouble. My CJ had Prestolite ignition originally which is garbage, so a distributor swap was necessary for me regardless. My distributor is a factory GM HEI, not a clone or aftermarket piece.

It's when you get into the aftermarket "kits'' (like CRT in particular), where the quality may be questionable, that causes problems.

The factory ignition system is good (if you have a CJ that's 78 or newer) and better when you upgrade it, but don't let a bunch of information regarding V8 cam and distributor gears scare you away. You don't have a V8 and Fred seems to have trouble with keeping information relevant to the particular CJ you are working on.

Sorry CSP,

I do not agree. The problems with HEI in AMC is both the 6 and 8 cylinder. If you looked/followed the quotes and links you would see both engines are reported many many many times. Both have hard gears in various parts of the market. Both have a long list a flaws the Make the HEI and Equal or less of ignition to the stock DuraSpark if set up right with grounds, TeamRush, Larger Spark Plug gap to .040 to .045 and premium spark plug wires.

Yes you can test the hardness of gear by drilling, and you can change the gear but there are multiple diameter of shafts, you have to fits for length so it does not bind the oil pump, The DESIGN HEI has flaws like grounding out thru the weights/metal of the hei to ground of block. The hei is equal to the stock ignitions not a upgrade, as said by others I value opinion and looking at facts I agree. Why spend 100 to 200 or even 400 for the MSD and DUI when you can get the CDI now for $120 or so. It is a much better ignition by far and works with stock dist.

If you find some hard proof of what you say please show me. Until then do not do the above. I am 99% certain of my perception to be correct and you have a few hundered others to comvince here too. But I am always willing to learn. Did you even look at the JeepHammer Article??

AS for the guys that have old HEI that work. Great glad it works for you. Keep in mind the hardened gears from Spain, Ebay, CRT or where ever some Previous Owner / guy / Chinese Inporter put on a Dist HEI or " possible changed" AMC finds it way into your engine it can take out your CAM GEAR. On the V8 just the gear can be changed on the I6 you have to change the Whole Cam. THE HARDNED GEARS ON IS A RELATIVELY NEW PROBLEM, IT WAS NOT A PROBLEM 20, 30, OR EVEN POSSIBLE 10 YRS AGO. So if you have a Junk Yard Distributor for 80's or what even it can work..... is it worth saying that it works and the world of HEI is all good.... that is just foolish in my opinion.

The good folks here will follow along and put it in and runs like crap. I am helping 3 right now that run poorly and have starter kick back on 2 of 3. 2 fo 3 have yanked the HEI put in a stock rebuilt Duraspark Dist for $50 and are getting a Summit CDI for $120. Simple to recurve or ck curve and works well.

So next time you post all is well with HEI... Lots of folks like this do not agree.

I will have to post the links to past threads with lots of failure quotes and the web link to JeepHammer article. Let JeepForum read for themselves. I think when you post the "I have and works...... and the all is well with the HEI world.... I think is just looks foolish. So I guess we have to agree to disagree and let the JeepForum Member Read and Research for themselves. I think it will be several years before these bad parts are out of the Jeep CJ Era Market.

Fred


Here is another long thread on just this subject.

2/09 Thread CRT Ignition FAIL

Originally Posted by gtchris

I know others have posted up some issues with the CRT HEI ignition; I have had mine for a couple thousand miles. I just went to do a tune-up today, and noticed it was loose. I look closer and see that about 1/2 of the ring around the shaft where it sits on the block has just cracked and fallen off. Now useless because it can't be tightened down. I have to worry that any metal shavings fell down the shaft into the block. Chris

Originally Posted by Dislsmoke

CRT is not billet, at leaset when when I bought mine, just looked like a cleaned up junk yard dizzy. My bottom bushings blew out in my dizzy. Now I went to a 360 and a DUI. Fist time I started it this weekend and fired right up on TDC. Couldn't be happier with it.

Originally Posted by dbikers

i can tell you i have a friend with a cherry '86 and a reman'd 258...put the dui in it about 4 yrs ago (less than 10000 miles ago)...long story short, the dist gear trashed the cam gear...got another gear from dui and it was crap too (didn't have the whole drilled all the way through)....
long story short, he had to tear down and start over...not sure if he did junkyard genius or jh's team rush ign upgrade(are they the same?) ....much much safer and a hell of a lot cheaper than dui...
just my .02

[swatson454]

So I thought I'd do Fred the honor of reading Hammers write-up on HEIs. Hammer is a very knowledgable guy and I have no reason to doubt his research what-so-ever. He is however perfectly capable of tasting his own food and doesn't need me to sample it for him, as some people on here would like to do. Here are my thoughts, whatever they may be worth. The point here is not to have someone spend three friggin hours dragging up every post they can think of to prove some ego point, but to have an intelligent conversation with open minded, knowledgable men about the pros and cons of what appears to be a popular but controversial upgrade.

1. Cheap, aftermarket clones. Initially, he (JeepHammer) clearly mentions overseas clones and cheap stuff, NOT factory HEI. As we all should know, the "Stroker McGurk" theory states that if some is good and more is better, then too much must be just right. This holds true with the majority of aftermarket crap on the market today. You have to know what you're getting into and how to resolve it should problems arise. I don't know how many times I've seen advance curves that were off the charts for ANY engine.

2. The new installed angle. Very valid point and one I hadn't given consideration. HEIs are top heavy. Now one would assume that the tight clearance between the block and shaft of the distributor would nullify the issue as I've never been able to rock a distributor back and forth but appearantly this isn't so as the problem is with the shaft, not the housing. One must also pay attention to the installed height of the distributor and use the correct spacers (don't gasket stack) to make sure that the input shaft of the oil pump isn't compressed.

3. We all know that we're not getting anything of quality when it comes to mass production from any auto maker. The cap, rotor, wires, coil, module... everything will be produced with overall costs trumping quality everytime. Luckily there are plenty of quality "tune-up" parts available. Now he makes a very interesting point about all of the internal grounding and other problems relating to the coil being mounted right on top. Factor that in with the problems associated with the entire assembly being top heavy and now mounted on an angle and it makes a strong case for a remote-mounted coil.

4. Gear alignment. Definite problem and one that seems to plague most HEI swaps. Now we're not talking about swapping a distrubutor from a 304 to a 360 or from a 327 to a 400. We're jumping ship completely! I'm surprised the damn thing fits at all. I would definitely spend some time with tech support from whatever company you're looking at (hopefully not CRT or 4wd.com, apparently) and for Gods sake lay the two distributors next to each other and friggin look.

5. Vacuum signal. GM uses a different vacuum signal and diaghram spring tension than Jeep to deliver vacuum advance. That doesn't mean that HEIs deliver WAY TOO MUCH advance and should be thrown into the firey pits of hell. What it does mean, however, is that an adjustable vacuum canister is probably in order to deliver the advance that suits your needs. It's most likely already installed on your aftermarket distributor. Adjust it. I'm not even sure what to think about the whole "starter kick back" thing. If the engine is turning way too slow for the weights to advance it and there isn't nearly enough vacuum advance to activate the canister then isn't it just a matter of initial advance? How is initial advance from an HEI different than that of any other distributor. Is this founded on actual reason or are we riding a bandwagon? Please chime in because I love intelligent conversations and love to learn new things.

So what's the point here? I'm not really sure. I'm sure there are guys from the Chevy camp that could pick apart the design of the MotorCraft ignition. I'm not an electrical engineer so I can't. What I do know and am still sticking to is that the HEI did run for a very long time and has been and is currently being used very successfully in all racing circles. Hammer brings up some very interesting design flaws that I'll surely address in my next build but it's not at all the doom and gloom, end of the world POS that someone would have you believe it is. It does seem to boil down to one basic idea; don't buy cheap sh*t!

My hope is that bouncing thoughts, our own thoughts (because no dignified man that I know would allow himself to be a parrot) off of each other would help us to learn the pros and cons to each upgrade we do to our Jeeps. Maybe we'll spend more time on the phone with tech support asking valid, informed questions and less time on Ebay buying crap that leads to hair loss and maybe we'll have fewer of these "My HEI Sucks Balls" posts.

The floor is yours...

Shawn

weber jets

[Fjguercio]

As you read on JH Web Post, and 50 to 100 posts in the past yr or so, we discuss this very often. I have been involved often also. Get kinda tired of trying to keep the Normal Joes Out Of Trouble as they say. Yes they can be made to work, and work well. BUT... there are some major quality problems, fit problems, breakage, not to mention most come with a aluminum terminal cap that is junk with non conductive oxide in a month. They we have the guys that say open the gap to .050 or .055 sometimes higher and control the higher voltage spark becomes almost impossible. So rather than write a book on each one of these over and over... I tell the reader to read JeepHammers web post. I agree it is well done and he is very good at ignitions.

The quotes I put together about a yr, because of the guys that chim in and say my HEI is GRAND.. Sometimes shock and awe is the only thing that will work, show the truth to the volume of problems, and scare the poster straight. Might be because of previous owner, a vintage before the china junk and hardened gears, or they know what they are doing and could recurve and trouble shoot any distributor. That is when the Normal Joe comes along and reads this thing works.... and decides to do the change to IMO THE FAULTED HEI.

WITH a little more knowledge The Average Joe can learn to add aux ground to the DuraSpark, add ground to head (s), run the distributor signal wire by itself to reduce noise & induced currents. Change to the TeamRush larger cap developed by Ford Engineers after the CJ Years as a upgrade. Know not to every leave the key on/run with the engine not actually running and burning fuel and you have a pretty good ignition. Solves the weak idle problems, yields 15% boost in pep, yields 1000 more RPMS of usefull range on I6 and even more on the V8s. I believe this because I went thru the process and updated my CJ in steps, keep notes, log mileage, and was working on a newly build long block.

Now if the QUALTIY is purchased MSD or DUI the hei should be fine quality but the tests of gear and fit should still be looked at. Some one could have changed the gear out and some other issue. We have seen a few issues, but not many with these MFGs. 1-2 and we do not know if PO did or came new. These are $400 hei distributors and for that might as well go the CDI path less money and better ignition.

The Chevy Guys is a different application and I do not think they have the quality issues with hardened gears and the quality problems with the hei. The problem is with the AMC Engines and hei.

Racing is a different application too. Most of us do not run WOT and race. We need a advance curve that works with load, low rpms engines like the 258, and keeps us from beating the heck out of our engine with too much advance. Heck going down the hwy with a trailer could be enough load to make some of these HEI distributors with 55 deg of advance do some real dammage. MANY MANY guys find out the get very hard starts with the HEI because of too much advance and the lost of START TIME RETART ADVANCE with start up that is stock on the DuraSpark. I have helped 10 JF members put in switches to kill the spark so the engine can get turning before the spark is allowed to fire.

Yes HEI can be made to work in AMC.... I am afraid too many JF members will do some serious damage to their engines. Damage to the point it needs a rebuild, needs a new cam, needs to clean hard metal shavings out of the internals, or goes thru a starter 3-4 times a year. These are real outcomes... common outcomes... I read ever HEI post I see. I am amazed they still can sell the things.

JUST TRYING TO KEEP THE GOOD FOLKS HERE ON JEEPFORUM SAFE.

Nope I did not write the book, but I have read the book. The change in the book helped me get from 14 to 17 to 18 to 21 to 25 (too lean) and to 23/25 mpg hwy.

I also have a very solid engineering background EE, ME, Physics, and 30 yrs of electronics work. I worked on the first MultiFuction Directional design back in the early 80s. So I understand a great deal, metals, EMI, RFI, circuite times, etc. As mentioned to CSP... please present and or lead me to the information. I look at links and learn here almost every day. The evidence and sheer volume of problems here on JF is overwelming to the FACT side of scale. I too find little wrong, nothing wrong, if anything with JeepHammers thought process and presentation on the Ignitions.

Thank you for taking time to be objective Mr Swatson,

Fred

[John Strenk]

Personally, I like a little of each. HEI control module, Duraspark distributor, e-core ignition coil.

[swatson454]

Thanks for the responce, Fred. I'm going to do a little research with the tech guys at MSD and Performance Distributors (DUI) and discuss some of these issues and see what shakes out.

The beauty of the DUI is each dizzy is custom curved for each application so you know you're not getting some wazoo advance curve that's going to blow you cylinder head off. I'll report my findings in a couple of days.

Shawn

weber 34

[Fjguercio]

Originally Posted by John Strenk

Personally, I like a little of each. HEI control module, Duraspark distributor, e-core ignition coil.

John,

That is close to what I settled on.... I have the Summit Digital CDI Multispark Ignition for the spark generator and the DuraSpark Distributor w/ TeamRush Parts & Premium Wires, and USED Ford E Coil that I pulled w/connector pigtail and Mount Hdw and duraspark signal connector half all for $$$4 (used stuff). On intro to market the Summit Digital CDI was $125 with selectable rev limiter. I really like my ignition and operation. Bit more than the $40 Hei Modual, but I do not have to stock heat sink paste...... ha da hadda.. joke. Cleaning garage now, man I have a lot of car chem junk.

My stock DuraSpark Spark Generator is still there change one connector & hook up aux/extra ground. BACK UP in matter of minutes.

There is a lot of wisdom in that single sentance John.

Fred

Originally Posted by swatson454

Thanks for the responce, Fred. I'm going to do a little research with the tech guys at MSD and Performance Distributors (DUI) and discuss some of these issues and see what shakes out. I'll report my findings in a couple of days.

Shawn

Just keep in mind for the most part the Premium HEI Versions from MSD and DUI do not have the quality problems like the other versions. Generaly they are to have the correct curve and be a much much better version.

There have still been posted insues but not many. You can search but they may be hard to find in all the posts about this subject.

I am not sure what MSD or DUI will share about the cheaper competitors if anything. The guy you reach may not even know. JeepHammer used to do work for MSD, FYI.

Also there is the cost issue these are $400 range.... can do lots of good stuff for that level of cash. Thats the other kicker with this path. CDI can be had for $130 and $150 w/rev limiter and works with the stock distributor in the Jeep 258, 304, 401 or any of them.

Leave the stock ignition there just disconnected. When you sell the CJ take you CDI for the next project CJ and hook up the Dist Connector and aux ground, like me, and will still run great for the next owner. You will never have to buy another CDI again, THAT IS VALUE.

Fred

[jm708]

Sorry to high-jack the thread but I'm in information overload... I have been through three ignition module in a month and just want to drive my Jeep with out the worry of being stranded every week. I was looking at the Summit Digital CDI Multispark Ignition ( MSD Ignition 6200 - MSD 6A CD Ignitions - Overview - SummitRacing.com ). Is this the one I need to get rid of the ignition module? I have the amc 360 with what appears to be stock set up minus the holly truck avenger carb 670 cfm, i just put in, with the edelbrock intake. I am not looking to hot rod or extreme off road just something mild to get me from point a to b with occasional off road. Thanks for the help. Justin