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Unread 07-10-2011, 06:55 PM   #16
Coiz
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You said you are going to split the load between two relays and plan to use starter relays, won't you need four relays total? Two to power forward and two more to power backward?

I really like the quick connects.

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Unread 07-10-2011, 07:19 PM   #17
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiz View Post
You said you are going to split the load between two relays and plan to use starter relays, won't you need four relays total? Two to power forward and two more to power backward?
Nope.
One battery directly wired to the winch contactor set.
The winch I ordered has an industrial contactor set instead of 'Starter Relays', one reason I ordered it.
If Warn didn't lie to me, it's a 500 Amp industrial contactor set, reversible polarity, so 'Forward' & 'Backward' will be handled at the Winch.

The idea with Winch (Starter) Relays is to isolate the SECOND battery when it's not in use,
But still add plenty of current when the winch relays are tripped.

Since they are hard wired into the system, when tripped, they also effect self rescue by self jump starting, extra current to the starter, ect.



There will be 4 high amperage relays total.
'Winch' (2) and 'Starter' (2).

Doesn't make sense to have a second battery and put the heavy relay between battieres when you can use a second starter relay and DOUBLE the power to the starter.



Primary battery has a 'Pass Through' connector, seen on the bottom buss,
And the 'Secondary' will terminate at the top buss,
Connectors shown on image above, but without the cables yet...
I use BIG HONKIN CONNECTORS with a large contact patch so they conduct current like they are supposed to, and I'm not above soldering them into place on the buss either!

Since the relay is the restriction point, why not put it in line to the starter doubling your current to the starter,
Instead of putting the power to the FIRST battery, then all that current trying to pass the factory starter relay...

Parallel instead of series.

Quote:
I really like the quick connects.
They have been MONSTROUSLY HANDY!
I was hoping for SOME help when I first installed them, but they have just found more uses down through the years.
Hooking up the snow plow is a SNAP now where it used to be a pain in the butt!
No one ever needs a snow plow on a bright, sunny, warm day!

Plugging in my inverter (hung on the front brush guard) makes 110 volt tools a SNAP!
We all know how frustrating it is to start a hard hole with a battery powered drill and the battery goes dead in the middle of things!

Pull a battery and stick it in the lawn more, tractor, generator, what ever!
About everything I have is on quick disconnects now, and my batteries have stopped walking off in unattended farm equipment, and I always have a charged battery in things I don't use very often,
Not to mention the expense savings of having a dozen batteries in a dozen different pieces of equipment!

Take a battery to camp, to work on electrical stuff in camp, to power fans and radios, charge up cell phones, ect.

With the quick connects, you are only limited where you can jump start someone by where you can carry the battery!
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Unread 07-10-2011, 07:40 PM   #18
Coiz
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Got cha', splitting loads on high amperage draws is always a good idea.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 08:10 PM   #19
JeepHammer
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Reload the page, I added a graphic...

Since I've burned up a TON of 'Starter' type relays in my day,
I know a good quality one will only pull about 320 amps for very long,
So DOUBLE relays will be required to deliver the second battery to the winch.

The easiest way I found to bolt the entire mess together was a buss bar,
(or in fact, two buss bars)
The buss bars increase contact patch area, they split the load between TWO relays so I can deliver up to 640 Amps from the secondary battery to the primary cable going to the winch, and the winch is only rated for 500 Amps, so there shouldn't be a problem

I could have use an industrial contactor from a fork lift, but they are about $250 for a 500 Amp version.

Wired this way, I can draw the full 500 from either battery, but split between two batteries, the system should live a long, trouble free life.

AND,
I keep the secondary battery isolated when the starter or winch/self rescue 'Emergency' switch isn't powering up the 'Winch' solenoids.

By using TWO starter solenoids,
The starting current isn't forced from the secondary battery, through one relay, into the second battery connector, out to the starter relay, then out to the starter.
BOTH starter relays pump power directly to the starter, and when you let off the starter, the second battery is isolated again...

Dual Redundancy with the same number of starter relays the 'Jumper' type solenoids do between batteries, and without all those cables/resistance on the battery terminals.

Since I'm using main battery terminals and relay end terminals rated for 500 Amps, pushing the amperage from battery to relay/buss won't be a problem, and since the buss increases contact patch, I can move more amperage faster with less wiring.
Buss is 3/16" thick X 1" wide since the contact patch on the cable ends is 1", full contact.

Now, the limiting factor in my system so far is the 350 Amp Quick Connects at the batteries...

Cables, Terminals, Relays, Contactors are all rated ABOVE the 350 Amp Quick Connects, but the quick connects are just so handy I'm not going to do without them...

With two batteries on Quick Connects, that's still 700 Amps to a 500 Amp rated winch...
And if I have to pull with one battery, I can still get the 220 Amps it takes to drag my Jeep with all 4 wheels locked.
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Unread 07-14-2011, 09:27 AM   #20
misplacetexan
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Jeephammer,
Have you ever thought about selling your homemade cables to other jeepers?
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Unread 07-14-2011, 10:14 AM   #21
JeepHammer
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I have, but for the cost of materials, then Shipping KILLS you since this stuff is REALLY HEAVY DUTY and weighs a bunch, I don't see any profit in it,
And if I'm going to take on another 'Job', I don't want to LOOSE MONEY...

If it were just for the guys on the forum, I'd consider it, but I don't want to grunt on cables all day for a living...

There IS a 'Wrong' way to do things, and I'm showing you some of those,
The 'Wrong' way is cheap to do, so that's the way things get done in the business world, that's why we have so many electrical issues with our Jeeps,
The 'Bean Counters' get involved, and suddenly things are built to live through the warranty period,
After that, it's money in the bank for the corporations if the components FAIL!

You come in with a 'Ground' issue UNDER WARRANTY, it's a quick ground wire or clean off the connection points and all is well with 15 minutes of shop time,
They are fully aware of the 'Issues', so it takes no time at all to clear up, and it seems 'Minor' to the customer,
Makes the shop guys look like heroes since they got it fixed so fast and under warranty...

And remember, these things were SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO LIVE THROUGH THE WARRANTY PERIOD,
So very few returns during the warranty period...

You come in with a 'Ground' issue AFTER WARRANTY, and it's a new component, new harness with 300% or 400% mark up on the parts, and a minimum of two hours shop time! (most dealerships have a 2 hour minimum now)
MONEY IN THE BANK FOR THEM.

You get frustrated with constant problems, and expensive 'Fixes',
So you 'Trade In', and get a new vehicle.
Again, MONEY IN THE BANK FOR THEM.

The make money on the new purchase,
Then they clean up the 'issues' on the used vehicle and put it out for resale and...
Again, It's MONEY IN THE BANK FOR THEM.

-----------------------

WE ARE the 'Monkey With The Wrench' for them.
We keep vehicles MUCH LONGER than expected, we do most of our own work,
We keep track and UPGRADE the deficiencies as we go,

No money for them when we do that, so don't believe the 'System' isn't geared towards keeping us from doing this stuff!
From cops hassling people with 'Old' vehicles, to parts stores selling sub standard parts for cheap so you get frustrated with doing the same job over and over again and get rid of the 'Old' vehicle...
To the commercials aimed at getting us to 'Re-Think' this or that...

They don't make the cash they think they should from ALL of us,
And that makes them sad/angry.

Even subsidized scrap steel buying programs getting the older supply of parts melted down hurts the guys working on this older stuff...
I don't even want to get started on 'Cash For Clunkers' program, which spent around $25,000 Taxpayer dollars for each 'Clunker' they actually paid $2,500 for...

SO MANY NICE OLD FSJ's & SWB Jeeps went to the smelter it wasn't funny!

--------------------------------------------

There is a 'Right' way to do things, and I'm showing you that also,
The 'Right' way is slow, expensive, but the cables will last as long as the Jeep with any maintinance at all, and some of my cables you could LIFT the Jeep with them!

When your cables, harness, 'grounds' are done correctly, the parts, even cheap replacment parts, last MUCH longer, you don't have troubles with wiring, and it's generally what the factories SHOULD HAVE DONE in the first place but didn't...

Whiteness ANY 'Military' vehicle.
The have dedicated 'Grounds' to everything,
the wiring sizes are MUCH larger,
The insulation isn't this 'vinyl' we are stuck with,
Terminals are soldered on and environmentally sealed...

They use alternators and starters with SEALED INDUSTRIAL ROLLER BEARINGS instead of 'Bushings' that are open to contamination.

It's your choice, 'Stock' type, or something that LIVES like it should in the first place!
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Unread 07-14-2011, 03:52 PM   #22
Erik719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
[B]BSERK'S WINCH PLATE!


[SIZE=3]The reason I picked this winch was the Industrial Grade Contactor instead of "Winch Solenoids",
What is an "Industrial Grade Contactor"?
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Unread 07-14-2011, 04:53 PM   #23
JeepHammer
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Just like I explained,
Most Winches use what are basically 'Starter Relays' ('Solenoids') to transfer and reverse current to the winch motor,
They were never designed for a winch, they heat up REALLY quickly because the contacts are very small, and they starve the winch for electrical current.

A 'Contactor' has VERY large contact patches, much heavier terminals, ect. so they pass more current without over heating and burning up, welding themselves 'Closed', ect.
A 500 Amp contactor would be for something like those stand up fork lifts they use a 'Home Depot',
MUCH heavier duty...

Now, if it actually gets here with the 500 Amp Contactor, we'll have to see, but that's what the guys on the phone at Warn Promised, we'll have to see if it's actually an industrial rated contactor,
And if it's actually a 500 Amp unit or not...
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Unread 07-14-2011, 05:13 PM   #24
Coiz
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JH,
I know you said that you had had problems with the initial relays you got with your Harbor Freight winches but then said that the winch performed fairly well once you got the solenoid issues fixed.

Here is a picture of the solenoid on the renamed Road Shock winches from HF. Is this the same style you had issues with or is this possibly an ungraded part? I took the cover off because I went in and replaced all the cheap heat shrink with the better adhesive lined heat shrink. Picture was obviously taken before I changed out the heat shrink. Just wondering if this is the same as the one you had issues with or is this a redesigned version.

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Unread 07-14-2011, 06:12 PM   #25
JeepHammer
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Same as the 'Ramsey' winch contactor I have here...

Once I did away with the contactor and started hooking directly to the battery things went MUCH better
Since it wasn't a series wound motor, just reverse the cables on the battery to make it let out, or 'Straight' polarity to make it pull in...

I had one of those 'Road Shock' winches, don't remember what the contactor or solenoids looked like anymore...
Might be confusing the two, this is a 'Ramsey' winch, but I don't know where the customer got the contactor...
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Unread 07-14-2011, 08:52 PM   #26
yleefox
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JH

I just wanted to thank you for taking what is obviously a great deal of your own time to post this excellent narrative with photos. I've learned a lot from your explanations and photos, not only in the event that I add a winch some day, but simple with any D/C current wiring project that I might tackle.

Patrick
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Unread 07-14-2011, 09:04 PM   #27
JeepHammer
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Thanks, and it IS TIME CONSUMING!
Not only do I have to take pictures, but remember to take them in a timely manner!
Doesn't do any good if you take the pictures after everything is over and you don't show how you did it!

Editing the pictures for size/content takes a BUNCH of time.
I'm no photograper so I have to take three or four of everything and HOPE one turns out useable...

That means doing the stuff, taking the pictures, running inside to edit the pics,
Seeing if there are usable pics, and if not, running back out and trying again until I do get usable pics,
Then editing them for size, posting them to my web site,
And then finally coming here and posting them.

Being appreciated means a lot, it's not like we get paid for this stuff!
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Unread 07-14-2011, 11:34 PM   #28
mvigo
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geez, Hammertime, I look forward to anything you type/write/b!tchabout/explain or otherwise pontificate!! and I mean that in the most humblest of terms!
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Unread 07-20-2011, 07:21 AM   #29
82KansasCJ
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Where did you tie in the front quick connect for the jumper cables?
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Unread 07-20-2011, 08:16 AM   #30
GAT72991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckbone View Post
Honestly man the batteries were a joke but doesn't seem you have much of a sense of humor or maybe you didn't get the laughing smilie and trust me I have melted the plastic selonoids before. The two minutes you give yourself well what if you have to do it 4 or 5 times in a row or is 2 minutes your limit and you just shut everything off and call it a day. Nevermind that you overkilled the rest of it why not them too. There is such a thing of overthinking stuff and becoming tunnel visioned, engineers regularly do it, might you be one? BTW West Marine should have those hanging in the store but I guess maybe you don't have them in Indiana either?
Are you serious right now?



lol
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