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Unread 01-18-2004, 09:59 AM   #1
Knight6
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Fuel tank and pump for an EFI conversion

Who's done a Fuel Injection conversion, and what have you done for fuel pump, fuel cell, fuel lines, etc.

I put in a 5.7L Vortec and the inline aftermarket pump isn't making me happy. I'm thinking about a few options:

1) Buy an expensive aftermarket tank with baffles, in tank pump, etc. made for fuel injected engines and replacing everything from the tank to the engine.

2) Getting a pick'n'pull chevy tank and having someone cut out and graft the top of the tank (has a larger openning for the sender) onto the top of my tank so I can use the stock chevy sending unit with in tank pump that came from the Suburban.

Any ideas??? The MSD and Airtex pumps inline pumps are not giving the engine enough psi or volume and I think some of it is the size of the tube attached in the sender, because I have all new high pressure lines from the inline pump forward.

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[SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B]KNIGHT6 - '78 CJ5. [/B] [/COLOR] [/SIZE]
Ford 9" x2, Tru-Hi-9 High pinion, 5.14s, 2 detroits,
SOA, D44 'flat-knuckles' High Steer over springs,
Chevy 5.7L Vortec, Ford T-18 with granny-low 1st
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Unread 01-19-2004, 08:58 PM   #2
SamFromCO
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I fabbed up a mount that goes inside my stock tank and uses a mid '90's Wrangler pump. It works well but I not entirely happy with it as I have to bend the float rod to get everything in the tank. I'm not sure that the Wrangler pump has enough pressure/volume for the Vortec.
You might want to check out this site. It's close to what I did.
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/fuel/FuelInjectedCJ01/
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Unread 01-21-2004, 06:58 AM   #3
Scrambler82
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What is the pressure rating of the Fuel Pump you are using ?

It should be at least 65 PSI and then you use a regulator to cut down the pressure at the injectors or Throttle body.

I am not sure what your pressure should be but the pump should be approx 10 to 20 % higher pressure.

I am using an aftermarket tank for my Ford 5.0 EFI setup. I bought the pump (65 psi) with the tank and the regulator will cut the pressure back to 45lbs at teh rails.

Luck,
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Unread 01-21-2004, 08:03 AM   #4
Knight6
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Thanks Sam and Nuck-

The Vortec, from what I've read, requires the highest psi of all EFIs. It requires 60-65 psi at idle. So a Wrangler pump wouldn't get me there. The pump I am using is rated to shut off at 125 psi, and the Vortec regulates it down to what it needs inside the rail cover so it has more than enough capability in the pump, but for some reason I am not getting it. The guys at BTB Productions have used the same pump in hundreds of Vortec conversions for more than 9 years running and swear by it, stating it produces around 58-65 psi for them and no problems, so I can't figure out why I am getting only 50 psi.

One thing I found out from them last night (and have yet to correct) is that the pump should be mounted near or level to the bottom of the tank, mine sets above the tank on the under side of the tub right now, so I need to move it lower. unfortunately my tank sits about 1/3 below my frame so I'm not sure where to put it.

I think in tank is the solution actually, like it sounds you two have. I am trying to get a custom tank with the stock GM in-tank pump put in it so it is the same pump that it used in the Suburban I got the engine from.

Still trying.
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[SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B]KNIGHT6 - '78 CJ5. [/B] [/COLOR] [/SIZE]
Ford 9" x2, Tru-Hi-9 High pinion, 5.14s, 2 detroits,
SOA, D44 'flat-knuckles' High Steer over springs,
Chevy 5.7L Vortec, Ford T-18 with granny-low 1st
37x14.00 Iroks, Warn 9K lb winch,
Metal Fusion tube fenders,full cage frame tie-in, +++
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Unread 01-21-2004, 09:25 AM   #5
Scrambler82
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Did you run new lines, feed and return, for this setup ?

If so have you checked for kinks ?

If not, without replace all, try blowing out the lines, remember it is gas you are fueling with, be careful adding air to gas makes it more volitile than is already is.

Are you using a regulator and where is it mounted ?

Where did you take the original pressure reading from ?
If there is a way to take the reading at the pump, it would be helpful in determining if the pump is any good or not?
Sometimes there is a port on the pump for this purpose.

Mounting the pump lower than the feed allows the gas supply to be constant and the pump maybe a pusher rather than a puller so it needs gas flowing from the tank.

Where are you going to mount the pump and how, just thinking...

Another consideration is to have a loop in the gas line between the tank and the pump, that way it will have gas at the pump when it starts.


Sorry for all of the questions, just thinking out loud...

I do not remember where I got the tank from , I will look when I get home, but It is called a "Rock Crawler Tank"

Later,
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Unread 01-21-2004, 01:30 PM   #6
Knight6
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No problem, think-on all this helps!!!

All lines (feed and return) are new high pressure soft hose (250 psi rated) 3/8" line. No kinks. Exception is right at the tank. I cut into the factory hard lines about 12" away from the tank sender and double clamped my soft lines to them at that point, all behind the pump. When removing the tank to look at things I found out there is a small portion of old soft line from the sender to the hard line, I installed new lines of stock quality and size at this point. I alos discovered that the return line had been pinched flat, so that was one problem.

I havn't added a regulator in, the injector head has an internal regulator and others have advised that's all I need. Where would I put one, what kind and for what reason? If I was getting too much pressure that makes sense, but I'm getting too little, and I beleive the Vortec needs different psi at different throttle positions so it adjust internally. Not sure

all pressure readings from the test port on the top of the engine, there are hard lines for the length of the engine and the feed has a test port. No test port built into my pump.

Where to mount the pump, that's a good question. I want it protected (so not below the tank or something obviously exposed like that) but it needs to be open on as many sides as possible for air/cooling since its not submerged in fuel for cooling. I guess on a frame rail, or maybe on the transfer skid. I have to look for a low spot, and make sure it or the lines to get to it are not too close to the dual inside the frame exhaust.

I like the idea of the loop, but I don't want a complicated accumulator set-up unless I really have to, besides I am getting a RockKrawler tank from Trail Quest built with a stock GM pump in it, so I need to not invest too much into making this pump work if that's going to solve the pump/pressure part of my problems.

Thanks for the ideas, and sorry for my even longer responses.

I am going to keep thinking it through and then play around with it this weekend (I Hope!)
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[SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B]KNIGHT6 - '78 CJ5. [/B] [/COLOR] [/SIZE]
Ford 9" x2, Tru-Hi-9 High pinion, 5.14s, 2 detroits,
SOA, D44 'flat-knuckles' High Steer over springs,
Chevy 5.7L Vortec, Ford T-18 with granny-low 1st
37x14.00 Iroks, Warn 9K lb winch,
Metal Fusion tube fenders,full cage frame tie-in, +++
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Unread 01-21-2004, 04:36 PM   #7
Scrambler82
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That's where I got mine, nice tank and the pump look good, not much I can really say more because the tank is in my latest project and it won't be ready to run for another six months.

The regulator, OK on the inline setup just asking because maybe the regulator isn't working right, putting out low pressure.

I was thinking about taking a pressure reading at the pump because to see if the pump is really putting out 125 lbs.

BUT since you are getting a new tank/pump it all should work out.

The RockKrawler pump I got is only putting out 65 psi for my Ford 5.0L setup.

Luck with the project let the forum know how thins work out.
Later,
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Unread 01-22-2004, 01:59 PM   #8
LS1CJ5
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Have you checked the voltage at or near your pump? Make sure your getting close to your battery output.
Just a thought. I used a Walbor intake pump that the guys over at LS1Tech suggested.

Larry
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Unread 01-23-2004, 01:48 PM   #9
Scrambler82
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LS1CJ5 has a good point, if the voltage and amperage is not there then the pump can't operate at its full capacity.

What is the amperage draw for the pump ?

What is the wire size that yo are using to supply the power to the pump ?

When checking the voltage remember amperage too.

Later,
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Unread 01-16-2007, 11:29 PM   #10
Rockhard
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fuel pressure

I have a cj7 with a 5.3l conversion. I had trouble with the in line pump. I went with the new genright tank wich uses the intank 4.0l YJ pump and sending unit. This pump puts out plenty of pressure forthe Vortec 60-65 is all that is needed. I used size 8AN stainless steel fuel line with russel aluminum fittings routed in the frame rail. The return line does not need to be high pressure. You do not need the evaporater line. This is the way to go, if you can spend the money. The tank alone was 800$. 250$ fuel pump. 200$ fuel line fittings and filter. No more worries. I left the in line pump there in case of an emergency.
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Unread 01-17-2007, 01:55 PM   #11
dirtman13
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I have a cj7 with a 4.3l Vortec. I'm running an Accel inline ACC-75701 I got from Summit Racing for $239. Modified stock sending unit, mounted unit on cross member next to tank and the jeep runs great.
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Unread 01-17-2007, 02:05 PM   #12
scotts81cj7
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the main key for your solution (until your new tank is installed)will be getting the pump as low or as close to the bottom level of the tank as possible...with the pump above the tank it will have a hard time sucking enough fuel to supplyyou with the pressure you need
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Unread 01-17-2007, 07:31 PM   #13
high51977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight6
No problem, think-on all this helps!!!

All lines (feed and return) are new high pressure soft hose (250 psi rated) 3/8" line. No kinks. Exception is right at the tank. I cut into the factory hard lines about 12" away from the tank sender and double clamped my soft lines to them at that point, all behind the pump. When removing the tank to look at things I found out there is a small portion of old soft line from the sender to the hard line, I installed new lines of stock quality and size at this point. I alos discovered that the return line had been pinched flat, so that was one problem.

I havn't added a regulator in, the injector head has an internal regulator and others have advised that's all I need. Where would I put one, what kind and for what reason? If I was getting too much pressure that makes sense, but I'm getting too little, and I beleive the Vortec needs different psi at different throttle positions so it adjust internally. Not sure

all pressure readings from the test port on the top of the engine, there are hard lines for the length of the engine and the feed has a test port. No test port built into my pump.

Where to mount the pump, that's a good question. I want it protected (so not below the tank or something obviously exposed like that) but it needs to be open on as many sides as possible for air/cooling since its not submerged in fuel for cooling. I guess on a frame rail, or maybe on the transfer skid. I have to look for a low spot, and make sure it or the lines to get to it are not too close to the dual inside the frame exhaust.

I like the idea of the loop, but I don't want a complicated accumulator set-up unless I really have to, besides I am getting a RockKrawler tank from Trail Quest built with a stock GM pump in it, so I need to not invest too much into making this pump work if that's going to solve the pump/pressure part of my problems.

Thanks for the ideas, and sorry for my even longer responses.

I am going to keep thinking it through and then play around with it this weekend (I Hope!)
Ok first off DON'T add a regulator the stock regulator is all you need if using the gm fuel rails and return line is functioning properly. Second the vortec requires a minimum of 55 psi at the test port for the injectors to function properly. Third, A good high quality inline pump such as the magna flow p/n 665-MP-4701 from www.jegs.com should be all you need to make everything work. of course that pump is rated at 100 psi so you may want to consider A/N fittings and hose
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Unread 01-17-2007, 11:53 PM   #14
Bill USN-1
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I also don't think the problem is because of an inline pump.
All my conversions use them. The masters/airtex are capable of 95psi.
The only way to test your pump is to put the guage at the outlet of the pump and then plug the outlet side of the gauge.
This will tell you the max pressure the pump will deliver.
The reading at the rail is what the regulator allows the system to operate at.

This is tested with a 2 amp battery charger.


Now IF the pump and lines are good then it would be the regulator. Didn't you open this thread with a list of more then one pump that did not work??

So where's the problem?

Have you pulled the pickup from the tank?
Is the old sock still on the end of the pick up?
Is the pickup line in the tank 3/8 or 5/16?

Have you installed the gauge at the olet of the pump to see if there is a difference in pressure. It should be the same from the pump to the injectors.
Does the pressure decrease as you hit the throttle?

What filter are you running before the pump? After the pump?
I mount my pump just ahead of the rear wheel on the top of the frame to protect it.
As mentioed the pump should be as low and as close to the tank as possible. They push better then they pull.


You have only mentioned the rubber hose on the outside of the tank so I can only assume you have not opened the tank.
You are going for a $500+ tank and an intank pump?
That's an expensive way to troubleshoot.

Can I have the parts you remove?
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Unread 03-03-2007, 10:03 PM   #15
Knight6
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Thanks for all the replies, I haven't been on this board in quite some time, and was suprised and happy to see folks still trying to help. As the problem I was troubleshooting was posted 1 day short of 3 years before the last post, I have long since fixed the problem. I agree with Bill USN-s that it's an expensive way to trouble shoot, but at the time I was very frustrated and was in the mood that everything I fixed once, I would make sure I never need to fix again. The old gas tank skid plate was worn through and there was a lot of rust - though probably none in the tank. In the end I am very happy with the new tank and skid plate with an in-tank pump. But as you suggested by "an expensive way to troubleshoot" it was a big chunk of money and it didn't solve the problem. I may be confusing my problems now, but as I recall, I got all the fuel system humming just fine, only to find out it was a fire problem. The hot wire we connected to the Vortec (unbeknownst to us) had an inline reducer and the problem was that the distributor wasn't getting enough heat (voltage/amps) to completely fire. Bill USN-1, I wish you'd have found this post a while back, because I would have gladly sold off some of the parts removed, like a perfectly fine inline pump, but they are long gone now. Right now I'm in the middle of a project to swap out the axles for 2 Ford 9" and going spring over at the same time. I'm jonesin' to get back on the trail, being in a garage this long is killing me, especially since my wife is driving around a new '07 JKU and I'm stuck driving a full size pick-up until the project is done. (of course making her payments is siphoning funds off my project). I can't wait to be topless again!
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[SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B]KNIGHT6 - '78 CJ5. [/B] [/COLOR] [/SIZE]
Ford 9" x2, Tru-Hi-9 High pinion, 5.14s, 2 detroits,
SOA, D44 'flat-knuckles' High Steer over springs,
Chevy 5.7L Vortec, Ford T-18 with granny-low 1st
37x14.00 Iroks, Warn 9K lb winch,
Metal Fusion tube fenders,full cage frame tie-in, +++
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