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Unread 11-26-2009, 11:31 AM   #1
molsenice
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the final "timing the 6" thread - setting the reluctor

or mabey it should just be called setting the "reluctor" as right from the box, this one seams to be off for the application I am attempting. 2 other threads on getting this 258 running focused on the stealth HEI and then the timing set, both have either been tested and proven to be functioning as intended (sealth HIE), or replaced (timing set), the system is firing a grounded test spark plug from the coil, the engine runs with a stock points distributor set 8deg btdc

Take a look

so through pm's to Jeep Hammer, it must be down to the reluctor is not located properly, here is what I have "right from the box"




Last edited by molsenice; 11-26-2009 at 11:43 AM..
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Unread 11-26-2009, 01:28 PM   #2
Mike Romain
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In my opinion if you bought one of the aftermarket distributors that is not clocked right, you just plain got ripped off. It wasn't built properly. There is a large problem with those. Fixing it is a serious pain in the butt. One company just plain gave up on quality control and sells an expensive rotor that you can clock to try and make it run. To do this you have to cut open a distributor cap and well, JeepHammer has gone over doing that several times.

You also should be expecting to have to change the gear on the bottom of these bad distributors or it will take out your camshaft.

Just my $0.02. 'I' would send the sucker back.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 11-26-2009, 03:31 PM   #3
molsenice
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found this on rotor phasing
Junk Yard Genius.com Rotor Phasing For Motorcraft Distributors Page
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Unread 11-26-2009, 03:38 PM   #4
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molsenice View Post
That is what I was thinking of. Not sure if ones with that issue have the hardened gear or not.

In my mind it is a serious pain in the butt to get it right.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 11-26-2009, 05:18 PM   #5
molsenice
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thing is - it was written so long ago that his $4 cap is now $25.99

I laugh - cause it beats cryin



I hope it is not the hardened gear
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Unread 11-26-2009, 08:59 PM   #6
molsenice
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so far - this doesn't work




Quote:
First & Formost, Figure Out If You Need To Move To The 'Advance' Side Or The 'Retard' Side.
'Advance' direction will always be against the pull of the vacuum advance.
'Retard' direction will always be with the pull of the vacuum advance.

1.Figure out how much in degrees of rotation, and what direction.
Remember, you want to figure the Reluctor as a stationary, and figure what direction the ROTOR needs to move, and how may degrees the rotor needs to move...

2.Mark the reluctor at the roll pin groove you are using.
(may reluctors have two or three already cut, so mark the one you are using, and remember, you may be able to use one of the others unless it is directly across from the one you have marked...)


3.Remove the reluctor.
Remember to pry up on the base circle, NOT THE 'ARMS' OR 'SPOKES'!

4.Figure the reluctor as a stationary piece, and figure what direction the rotor needs to go, and how much in degrees.
'Advance' direction will always be against the pull of the vacuum advance.
'Retard' direction will always be with the pull of the vacuum advance.

5.Transfer that to the Reluctor and mark the Reluctor for the new groove.

6.Move the roll pin groove on the inside of the reluctor accordingly.
Square file, triangular file, ect, but don't cut too deep!

7.Assemble and retest.

8.Repeat until you get the correct phasing.
Very common to go the wrong way the first time, so don't feel like you made a major mistake.
(I still do it on CCW distributors all the time...)
so - for now I seem to be stuck on #8

cutting a hole in the cap will have to wait till I get it running
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Unread 11-27-2009, 05:29 AM   #7
Mike Romain
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I don't think it will ever work by guesswork unless you make a pile of notches. That notch you made may not hold the roll pin in, it looks a bit large. The pin must compress to stay put.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 11-27-2009, 05:51 AM   #8
molsenice
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actually - it was harder to get off than the stock pin and unfortunatly, making a pile a noches for the moment is my only choice as the engine will not idel with the motorcraft distributor.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 06:02 AM   #9
Mike Romain
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Why try to use it then?

When I buy something new I expect it to work as advertised. If it comes to me broken or non functional, I send the thing back and hope to get a good one or I change brands.

I had never in my life heard of a distributor internally out of phase until I joined this forum and started reading about the aftermarket crap distributors. That is insanely poor quality control and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

Are you sure something else isn't going on?
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 11-27-2009, 06:30 AM   #10
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That is a FORD reluctor, two notches, directly opposed to each other.

Jeep reluctor has one about where you put the extra notch, and that is generally the one you will have to use.

You ARE on the correct track I do believe.
Let me see if I can find a Jeep reluctor around here and take pictures of it.
-------------------------------

Like I told you before, this is a good time to mark the outside edge of the balancer, number the 'Slices' so you can tell where you are going.

Then put a new roll pin groove in the reluctor, see where it moves the firing point with a timing light.
It's not too hard to track down, and you get at least 4 tries with each reluctor since there are 4 'Arms' that don't have roll pin notches.

Making a test cap with a hole cut in it between coil wire and #1 will help you get the rotor phased with #1 very quickly when you get close.
It's just fine to use a cheap cap for the 'Test Cap' since you aren't going to be running it long enough to get aluminum oxide buildup on the terminals.

Once you get the balancer in the general neighborhood of the timing mark on the timing scale,
Then you use the test cap to get the rotor to 'Sweep' over #1 as the vacuum advance pulls on and off, and your rotor is phased.

Last edited by JeepHammer; 11-27-2009 at 07:14 AM..
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Unread 11-27-2009, 06:33 AM   #11
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
That is a FORD reluctor, two notches, directly opposed to each other.
Aha! That would make more sense.....
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 11-27-2009, 08:24 AM   #12
molsenice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
Why try to use it then?
ever get so focused on something that even once you have decided to go with it and then it snares you into tangental tracks that eventually lead to th decision to "screw it" - but you just can't let it beat you? At this point it is down to mule headed stuberness
Quote:

Are you sure something else isn't going on?

Just about 99.999% - after all, "Suck, squeeze, bang, blow" really anit a hard concept
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Unread 11-27-2009, 08:31 AM   #13
molsenice
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here is the "mark the balancer" from JH - just trying to keep all the info in one place
Quote:
If it's firing, then all you have is a timing issue.

If the distributor you are using is for a '84 to '86 engine (or some of the later YJ's with 258) then the reluctor is set up for the computer, and it's in the wrong place.

Since the reluctor is only held to the shaft by a roll pin in a groove, it's VERY easy to move that reluctor simply by making another groove in the reluctor.

The way to find out which way you need to go is...

Mark your balancer in about 1/8 pie slices around the outside with chalk so you can see with a timing light if you are firing too soon or too late.
Mark each 1/8 slice on the OUTSIDE ring of the balancer with '1', '2', '3', '4', ect. all the way around the balancer, and this will give you an indicator of which way your reluctor needs to go to get you firing correctly with a timing light.

If the reluctor is in the wrong location relative to the distributor shaft/rotor nose,
Then you simply take a file, make a groove in the reluctor that moves it the way you want to go...

This is VERY simple stuff, and normally you can flip the cap, remove the rotor, and lift the reluctor with your fingers,
Just make sure you don't loose the roll pin when you do!

You should find two factory made notches in the reluctor,
One about lined up with one of the 'Arms',
And one about between the 'Arms' on the other side.

I would make it easy on myself and move the reluctor to the slot opposed to the one you are using just to see if it's in the correct place right out of the hat...
Long shot, but might just work out for you.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 01:25 PM   #14
JeepHammer
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Once you find out what 'Sector' of the balancer your #1 plug wire is firing in, then you will know which way to move the reluctor to get it in the neighborhood of 'Correct'.

I use roman numerals or symbols, like 'L' 'Star', 'X', ect. for the different sectors.
Not that it's any better than '1', '2', '3', '4', ect.
It just makes people ask more questions when they see it!
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Unread 11-28-2009, 08:34 AM   #15
JeepHammer
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If you hook up the ignition, put a test plug in the coil, turn the key on with the distributor OUT,
And spin the distributor,
You SHOULD see a fireworks show...

If you do that, you have VERIFIED the distributor is sending signal,
That signal is getting to the module,
That module is switching the coil,
The coil is firing...

The only thing left is checking the rotor to make sure it's correct for the distributor cap, and the plug wires are on correctly...

Turn the engine over to TDC of COMPRESSION STROKE,
Then make sure the distributor is installed with the vacuum advance pointing towards the front of the engine...

Mostly at the front corner of the block, and the distributor set should be correct...

Then the only thing to do is to make the reluctor produce the trigger signal at the correct time.

Most guys can turn the distributor slightly to get the engine firing at the correct time,
But in rare occasions, it will NOT, like when you use a Ford reluctor or the reluctor off the 'Retarded' distributors (computer, '84-'86 CJ and some early YJ's)

You simply make the reluctor fit the application...

Now, this may be too 'Techinical',
But if you have EVERYTHING lined up, TDC of #1,
Balancer then turned back to about 6 degrees before TDC,
And the rotor about even with #1 plug wire terminal...

You can take the reluctor off,
Hold it up to the trigger,
Decide where the notch needs to be when the reluctor 'Arm' is just breaking contact with the magnetic core...

Remember, the trigger signal isn't produced until the TRAILING EDGE of the reluctor breaks (magnetic) contact with the TRAILING EDGE of the stator core...
And you can get VERY close that way...

(Variable Reluctor means the 'Arm' movement in the magnetic field produces POSITIVE, but as soon as it breaks over the center line of the VR, then the field switches, and you get NEGATIVE polarity.
Then you have to account for time for the circuitry in the module to fire the coil,
SO by the time the 'Arm' on the rotor has cleared the magnetic pole in the trigger,
Things are usually about right on the money.)

You can 'Pie Slice' your balancer outer ring to about any divisions you want to,
4, 6, 7, 8... It's just to tell you what direction you are going (Advance or Retard) with the trigger signal so you can 'Sneak Up' on the proper alignment of the Reluctor...

All arms on the reluctor are the same, you can start on ANY arm to get your firing order since it simply fires 3 times (1/2 Turn) for each engine revolution (720 Degrees in a camshaft or ignition circle)

You get a fresh start on ANY 'Arm' you work on with the reluctor.
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