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Unread 08-14-2014, 05:40 AM   #31
Mike Romain
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When mine blew cylinder 5, I found a 4.0 from a rusted out low mileage grand Cherokee for $100.00. I could have stripped the computer and wiring for the same price, I had to help remove the engine at that price.
I then just put all my 258 stuff on it. My V-belt pulleys and accessories, distributor along with my intake and BBD carb. Had to use the 4.0 exhaust header. $50.00 for a fuel pump and $50.00 for some exhaust adapting and away I went.

I personally think a used factory engine is way better than an unknown quality rebuilt.

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Unread 08-14-2014, 06:32 AM   #32
Sherms-CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
When mine blew cylinder 5, I found a 4.0 from a rusted out low mileage grand Cherokee for $100.00. I could have stripped the computer and wiring for the same price, I had to help remove the engine at that price.
I then just put all my 258 stuff on it. My V-belt pulleys and accessories, distributor along with my intake and BBD carb. Had to use the 4.0 exhaust header. $50.00 for a fuel pump and $50.00 for some exhaust adapting and away I went.

I personally think a used factory engine is way better than an unknown quality rebuilt.
Hey Mike!!

Ah, I was thinking about that ... the only problem is finding that low mileage used vehicle. But, clearly if I could find one, that would be the way to go. It would trouble me to go with a different size motor, i.e. 4.0 vs. 4.2, because I have Hedman headers that I'd put on mine that I could no longer use; however, at that cost difference ($6k vs. <$1k), I'd get over it. How hard was it for you to find that 4.0 motor? You definitely raise a great point and I should at least put feelers out there to try to find a donor car!! The question I need to answer for this is - what cars should I be looking for as donor cars? Obvious answers Cherokee's and YJ's? Anything else?

Last question - I have a T176 that I just had rebuilt due to the failure of a T5 that I'd put into my Jeep years ago ... will a T176 work with a 4.0?
Later ... well, found that answer myself and it looks like the older tranny should be compatible:
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/amc_i6.htm

There is irony if I were to go the 4.0 route ... I've already done the CJ/YJ tub swap, so installing a 4.0 inherently makes my Jeep "more YJ", which is good and bad. Bad in a CJ7 purist sense since I enjoy responding to inquiries about my Jeep with answers such as "except for the tub, it's pure CJ!" Good from the standpoint of, from reading the above web page, the 4.0 should be an improvement ... and it might be easier finding parts for it over the increasingly aged CJ7 motor.

Thank you Mike very much for your help on this one!!
John
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Unread 08-14-2014, 07:18 AM   #33
Mike Romain
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I checked and asked on a local Jeep club forum and got a 93. Less than 200,00 kilometres on it, should be good for 3K more. Gives me 25 mpg too. :-)

My T5 fit right on, so you are Ok there. I had to turn the outside of my old pilot bushing down to fit the 4.0 crank, but I read recently you can buy the correct size one.

You can likely sell those headers and get 4.0 ones.

The swap only took a day to do.
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89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 08-14-2014, 07:31 AM   #34
Sherms-CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
I checked and asked on a local Jeep club forum and got a 93. Less than 200,00 kilometres on it, should be good for 3K more. Gives me 25 mpg too. :-)

My T5 fit right on, so you are Ok there. I had to turn the outside of my old pilot bushing down to fit the 4.0 crank, but I read recently you can buy the correct size one.

You can likely sell those headers and get 4.0 ones.

The swap only took a day to do.
Hey Mike!!

Thanks very much!! You've given me new hope with a way of proceeding that hopefully won't break the bank. BTW - you mentioned this earlier, but I didn't quite understand the context of the 4.0 as being from a 90's Jeep ... never knew much of anything about the YJ's and their Cherokee brethren, and I was still focused on hoping to salvage my engine. So I didn't give it the due consideration that it deserved. Therefore, let me give you a huge THANK YOU!!! ... for having patience with me (again) and bringing this up a second time!!!

V/r -
John
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Unread 08-14-2014, 10:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherms-CJ7 View Post
Hey Mike!!

Ah, I was thinking about that ... the only problem is finding that low mileage used vehicle. But, clearly if I could find one, that would be the way to go. It would trouble me to go with a different size motor, i.e. 4.0 vs. 4.2, because I have Hedman headers that I'd put on mine that I could no longer use; however, at that cost difference ($6k vs. <$1k), I'd get over it. How hard was it for you to find that 4.0 motor? You definitely raise a great point and I should at least put feelers out there to try to find a donor car!! The question I need to answer for this is - what cars should I be looking for as donor cars? Obvious answers Cherokee's and YJ's? Anything else?

Last question - I have a T176 that I just had rebuilt due to the failure of a T5 that I'd put into my Jeep years ago ... will a T176 work with a 4.0?
Later ... well, found that answer myself and it looks like the older tranny should be compatible:
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/amc_i6.htm

There is irony if I were to go the 4.0 route ... I've already done the CJ/YJ tub swap, so installing a 4.0 inherently makes my Jeep "more YJ", which is good and bad. Bad in a CJ7 purist sense since I enjoy responding to inquiries about my Jeep with answers such as "except for the tub, it's pure CJ!" Good from the standpoint of, from reading the above web page, the 4.0 should be an improvement ... and it might be easier finding parts for it over the increasingly aged CJ7 motor.

Thank you Mike very much for your help on this one!!
John
Probably does not need to be very low mileage. Mine came from a 94 with >200k and the bores and bearings were in great shape. I should have just had the head done and put a new timing chain and gaskets on it.
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Unread 08-22-2014, 08:17 PM   #36
Sherms-CJ7
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Hey guys,

Haven't figured out a solution to this problem yet, though I've been giving it a great deal of thought ... and definitely know I need rebuild or another motor at this point. Joined a local Jeep forum and have found a 4.0L for $400, unknown mileage (but definitely > 100K). Also, found a local shop that remans engines!! And they have a warranty that's on par with (actually better than) the Jasper warranty!! Jasper's warranty is 3 yrs. and 100k miles. This new local shop warrantees their engines for 3 yrs. and unlimited miles. Also, they say they use quality parts and they rolled off several names and said something about Made In USA. What I liked most - they told me I could stop by the shop and they'd show me around etc. So, definitely more expensive than Used (by an order of magnitude, but ... it's warrantied. If I could find Used motor for right price and close to my location, then I'd do it, but ... $400 for unknown mileage!? I could sit on it longer and look for a better Used motor, but I'm feeling pretty impressed with the MDR Engines in Purcellville, VA! What do you guys think? Anybody have any experience with MDR Engines?

Thanks much again for all your help!!!
John
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Unread 08-23-2014, 04:34 AM   #37
Mike Romain
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Unknown miles on a used engine for $400.00 is way too much. Mine had known miles on it and was $100.00.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 08-23-2014, 05:01 AM   #38
Sherms-CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
Unknown miles on a used engine for $400.00 is way too much. Mine had known miles on it and was $100.00.
Hey Mike,

Right - I was totally thinking about that!! I don't mind paying a bit more than you did if I knew it was low mileage and was convenient (near me) etc., but $400 is too much! I'm just not having as much luck finding an engine for such a deal, but obviously I could be patient ... ?

So, I'd love to go the Used route ... but was also very intrigued to find an engine reman shop 10 miles from me!? I was actually looking in the Classifieds of NovaJeepers (http://www.novajeepers.com/) when I came across a reference to this shop, MDR Engines (http://www.mdrengines.com/). And, the reference to the shop was in the signature of a guy who lives in my town and who I think work there - allot of small world coincidence. Also, from posts I found on NovaJeepers, the shop in general seems to be Jeep enthusiast ... they even hosted a Jeep event for NovaJeepers (http://novajeepers.net/index.php?topic=9450.0). Lastly, their estimate was $500-$1000 lower than the mechanic I'd been talking to who advised me to go with Jasper. Anyway, from everything you've said, you probably wouldn't go this route. I just don't know if I can wait for weeks or months until I find a decent deal? Still thinking this through ...

Best regards -
John
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Unread 08-23-2014, 05:56 AM   #39
Sherms-CJ7
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Originally Posted by swatson454 View Post
If you've got someone local that you trust with a rebuild, I'd surely go that direction. If you get a crate, you can be pretty certain that the parts used along with the clearances and assembly techniques will be "just" good enough to get you past the warranty period.


Shawn

Edit: Have you read Hammer's recent thread? http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/ho...-work-2632818/ That should be enough to put the fear of God in someone looking into a reman engine.
So, I'm hoping I may have found a shop like Shawn was talking about above ... not sure yet though. One good sign, the first reference to this shop was on a Classified add for somebody selling their Jeep Cherokee, who mentioned that MDR, also called M&D, had rebuilt their engine 2 yrs ago ... and they still had one year on the warranty. Anyway, I'll do some checking to see what I can find out about these guys ... so far, seems very promising!


John
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Unread 08-23-2014, 06:17 AM   #40
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Fingers crossed!

One thing I can't get past regarding throwing a used engine in is that you never know if someones grandkids used to bury it at redline crossing rivers and such. Maybe I'm just paranoid.


Shawn
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Unread 08-23-2014, 06:29 AM   #41
keith460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
Unknown miles on a used engine for $400.00 is way too much. Mine had known miles on it and was $100.00.
Yes, I think $400 for a used engine and not knowing its internal condition is to much to pay for it. Like Mike, I was able to find a spare 1984 engine that someone was selling for $400, but after looking at it and finding missing parts, dented oil pan, etc. I payed $100. Its has good internal parts and castings dated for my same year that have never been bored oversize and all parts are OEM.

I good reputable local Machine Shop that has years of experience is your best bet IMHO. If you lived around my area, I could direct you to two Machine Shops that do excellent work at reasonable prices. One of the shops has been in business since 1950 and is know owned by the families 3rd generation.
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Unread 08-23-2014, 10:03 AM   #42
Sherms-CJ7
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Originally Posted by swatson454 View Post
Fingers crossed!

One thing I can't get past regarding throwing a used engine in is that you never know if someones grandkids used to bury it at redline crossing rivers and such. Maybe I'm just paranoid.


Shawn
Hey Shawn!
Yeah, I have trouble with that as well, but if I did find something for $100 ... as opposed to paying $3K+ ... well I might have to get over it. Still, I'm not having much luck finding Used motors in my area. And, I may have found such a shop as you were talking about, which makes it worth the extra $$ ... fingers crossed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith460 View Post
Yes, I think $400 for a used engine and not knowing its internal condition is to much to pay for it. Like Mike, I was able to find a spare 1984 engine that someone was selling for $400, but after looking at it and finding missing parts, dented oil pan, etc. I payed $100. Its has good internal parts and castings dated for my same year that have never been bored oversize and all parts are OEM.

I good reputable local Machine Shop that has years of experience is your best bet IMHO. If you lived around my area, I good direct you to two Machine Shops that do excellent work at reasonable prices. One of the shops has been in business since 1950 and is know owned by the families 3rd generation.
Hey Keith!
Well, from the looks of things, you're 3.5 hrs. from me. That's a little far, but for the right engine at a fair price, it would be worth the trip. However, I am hoping that I've found a good reputable local shop ... at least I haven't found any negative info on them yet and the shop owner and/or employees are Jeep enthusiasts Also, they seem to have a pretty great warranty on their engines - 3 yrs. and unlimited mileage. Still, I'll do more research as far as investigating how long they've been in business etc. ... I may ask you yet for the name and # of the shop you spoke of.

Thank you both very much for all your help!!
John
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Unread 08-23-2014, 12:39 PM   #43
Sherms-CJ7
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Hey guys,

Well, I found 2 bad reviews on Google+ for the shop I'm considering. Complaints seemed mostly to be about time ... one guy being told 5 weeks for his rebuild, but the actual job took 22 weeks!!! Wow, what a bummer! Still, not a deal breaker as I'm only reading 1 side of the story, but it definitely puts me off. They've been in business for 4 years, and it sounds like the owners worked at another shop (next town over) that had been in business for 25 yrs. ... and the new shop was somehow passed down from the original. Sounds like they really are a "Jeep" shop and they say they are "machine shop", but one of the complaints talks about them sending somebody's crank out to another shop!? https://plus.google.com/113439423112...about?hl=en-US

I called them yesterday, and the guy I spoke with seemed knowledgable and knew of remanufacturing "tricks of the trade" that Jasper does to cut corners. He did say I could see the shop and that they'd check out my motor and call me down to show me what the find ... sounds good, but are they just telling me what they know I want to hear? Still, can't see them doing bad work and cutting corners if they are dealing with local customers and are offering a good warranty?

Everything I'd read on Nova Jeepers forum was positive ... but, if everybody there is friends?

Thanks again for all your help!!
John
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Unread 08-24-2014, 07:32 AM   #44
JeepHammer
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I have to go with Shawn on this one, Not only did the kids redline the engine everywhere they went,
But the younger ones used it as a repository for the rocks they found in the driveway...
Or it sit full of rain water for two years before they decided to sell it...

If I can SEE the engine before it comes out of the vehicle,
And particularly if I can HEAR IT RUN before I buy it, I will give MUCH more for it.
A 'Pig In A Polk' is purchased as a 'Core', not a running engine...

As for the guys with the 22 week wait and gave a bad review...
It's happened to me.
The customer couldn't pay the bill, decided to change something that completely excluded the parts/work we had already done, we found bad castings/parts and the customer said he would find replacements so we could proceed... But didn't show back up in a timely manner...
There are a ton of reasons an engine could sit around for 22 weeks...

The trick is,
BUY YOUR OWN PARTS off the aftermarket you want installed, bring them in with the engine.
This commits YOU to those parts and since you are committed you won't be changing things in the middle of the bill.
(Leave things like pistons, bearings, ect. to the professionals, I'm talking add ons like valve cover gaskets, intakes, exhausts, water pumps, ect.)

One of the things I hated worst was the guys that dropped in a couple of times a week, and had changes their minds about this or that... They had read about something new to them each week and drifted around like a leaf on the wind...

OR,
Pay for 'Parts' up front, but DO NOT pay the entire bill, leaving at least 1/3 of the bill unpaid until completion.
Getting paid in advance is ALWAYS a bad idea, there is no incentive to get it out the door and get paid!

------------

A reputable shop would answer your question about the '22 Week Build'...
So ask. It doesn't cost anything and you might find out it was some impossible customer,
Or you might find out they couldn't pay the bill,
or something like that...

Before the days of the internet, we used to have customers sign a 'Butcher Paper' roll and add comments.
We didn't edit anything, what they wrote down was in order of the time they wrote it...
You could scroll back for YEARS to see what people said...
We also encouraged them to check with the BBB and the local radio station which logged and reported complaints ON AIR!

The other thing is DO NOT pay any attention to ANONYMOUS COMPLAINTS.
If the guy has a legitimate complaint, he won't be afraid to sign his name to it.

----------

COMPLETION DATE ON THE WORK ORDER!

If the shop has a rep for being 'Slow', then get a completion date on the work order, with a dollar estimate,
Then add a 'Penelty' for each week it's late.
Perfectly legal to do this and covers you in the event the shop takes more in than it can do.

I will tell you now that a 'Repair Shop' can get SWAMPED pretty quickly and the machine works will suffer when that happens...
When you have a customer standing right there that wants their daily transportation running NOW you will have a tendency to leave the stuff on the shelves in the back sit there...

Took me about 4 years to work that out... We didn't want to turn customers away, but the 'Little Jobs' and drive-ins will eat up your time QUICKLY... so something has to wait or you have to work until 4:00 AM every morning... Which I did for the first 4 years...
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Unread 08-24-2014, 11:27 AM   #45
Sherms-CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
I have to go with Shawn on this one, Not only did the kids redline the engine everywhere they went,
But the younger ones used it as a repository for the rocks they found in the driveway...
Or it sit full of rain water for two years before they decided to sell it...

If I can SEE the engine before it comes out of the vehicle,
And particularly if I can HEAR IT RUN before I buy it, I will give MUCH more for it.
A 'Pig In A Polk' is purchased as a 'Core', not a running engine...

As for the guys with the 22 week wait and gave a bad review...
It's happened to me.
The customer couldn't pay the bill, decided to change something that completely excluded the parts/work we had already done, we found bad castings/parts and the customer said he would find replacements so we could proceed... But didn't show back up in a timely manner...
There are a ton of reasons an engine could sit around for 22 weeks...

The trick is,
BUY YOUR OWN PARTS off the aftermarket you want installed, bring them in with the engine.
This commits YOU to those parts and since you are committed you won't be changing things in the middle of the bill.
(Leave things like pistons, bearings, ect. to the professionals, I'm talking add ons like valve cover gaskets, intakes, exhausts, water pumps, ect.)

One of the things I hated worst was the guys that dropped in a couple of times a week, and had changes their minds about this or that... They had read about something new to them each week and drifted around like a leaf on the wind...

OR,
Pay for 'Parts' up front, but DO NOT pay the entire bill, leaving at least 1/3 of the bill unpaid until completion.
Getting paid in advance is ALWAYS a bad idea, there is no incentive to get it out the door and get paid!

------------

A reputable shop would answer your question about the '22 Week Build'...
So ask. It doesn't cost anything and you might find out it was some impossible customer,
Or you might find out they couldn't pay the bill,
or something like that...

Before the days of the internet, we used to have customers sign a 'Butcher Paper' roll and add comments.
We didn't edit anything, what they wrote down was in order of the time they wrote it...
You could scroll back for YEARS to see what people said...
We also encouraged them to check with the BBB and the local radio station which logged and reported complaints ON AIR!

The other thing is DO NOT pay any attention to ANONYMOUS COMPLAINTS.
If the guy has a legitimate complaint, he won't be afraid to sign his name to it.

----------

COMPLETION DATE ON THE WORK ORDER!

If the shop has a rep for being 'Slow', then get a completion date on the work order, with a dollar estimate,
Then add a 'Penelty' for each week it's late.
Perfectly legal to do this and covers you in the event the shop takes more in than it can do.

I will tell you now that a 'Repair Shop' can get SWAMPED pretty quickly and the machine works will suffer when that happens...
When you have a customer standing right there that wants their daily transportation running NOW you will have a tendency to leave the stuff on the shelves in the back sit there...

Took me about 4 years to work that out... We didn't want to turn customers away, but the 'Little Jobs' and drive-ins will eat up your time QUICKLY... so something has to wait or you have to work until 4:00 AM every morning... Which I did for the first 4 years...
Jeephammer,

I can't Thank You enough for the info!! Actually, I was trying to look at this from the shop's perspective, especially because ... I liked the guy I spoke to, I liked that he mentioned quality parts and named those they use, I like being able to go down and see their operation and that they do most if not all of their own machine work, I like their warranty, and I like supporting local business ... especially a business that already caters to Jeeps!!

In case you're curious, the complaint was not anonymous, and here it is ...
Quote:
Terrible. I dropped my jeep off to have the engine rebuilt and stroked. I was told 5 weeks, it took 22. It runs like crap and gets horrible mileage. It has thrown a misfire code twice now, both times they say it's fine. I now have an all but useless engine for far more than a crate stroker would have been from a reputable company.
Anyway, if the big gripe is Time - I can get over it, assuming mine won't be as bad as 22 weeks ... that's ridiculous. Not sure about the misfire code, although, clearly this guy is talking about a later model Jeep ... might he actually have some other sort of problem (computer related?). Not sure what he means when he says it runs like crap and why he says engine is "all but useless", but shop says "it's fine". Anyway, I was wondering if (hoping) he was something of a difficult customer.

Still thinking things over and won't decide until I go see this shop. And, if I found a low mileage engine for as low as $100, then I'd have to try it and would drop it in myself; however, in lieu of that happening, I'm leaning towards doing as you and Shawn are advising.

As I mentioned, there's a whole lot of good feedback about that shop ... fingers crossed!!

I will let you know what I decide and how it turns out ...

Thank you again ... your help really means allot to me!!
John
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