Electrical Issues with my CJ5

Gizler00 · 02-27-2008, 04:29 PM

Ok, Im not an electrical guru by anymeans so I need a little help. So I traced the wiring for the 304 and everything looks ok. There is power going to the solenoid and also to the ICM and then to the coil, And I am getting no spark at all. The coil looks new. The guy who I bought it from let his son tear into the jeep and he replaced alot of components. There are some pictures in my first post of the rats nest under the dash. But anyhow, the neg cable from the battery is gounded to the block. And when I was cranking it over the cable got super hot. Almost too hot to touch. Also the engine was barely turning over with a brand new battery that I put in today. If anyone can give me any advice that would be great. I will try to post some pictures of the wiring. Thanks guys.

Mike Romain · 02-27-2008, 04:56 PM

The hot cable is usually a bad one with corroded ends. The slow starter would second that. That block connection is a sneaky one for corrosion.

If the positive also got real hot, then the starter is suspect.

Gizler00 · 02-27-2008, 05:38 PM

MIke,
I never thought of the starter being slow. That makes sense. It might not be original but it is not even close to being a new one. There is actually no corrosion because the positive and negative cables were both replaced. But the Positive did not feel hot like the negative cable. BUt the no spark issue is what is making me wonder. Especially since I did not install any of these new components. I will post some pictures tonight after I take them. THere are two units on the fender with the solenoid. One has to be the Ignition control module and Im thinking the other one might be a resistor. Im not sure. And the Haynes manual does not show anything for it at all. So I should probably replace the starter to get it cranking faster. THanks for everything

**John Strenk** · 02-27-2008, 06:56 PM

I think Mike is saying the starter is slow BECAUSE of a bad negative cable. It could be corroded inside or wrong gauge wire. I use 0 gauge cable there I've seen cables with thick insulation on it but real small gauge wire inside. I've also have bought new cables that were made incorrectly and developed problems quickly.

See if you can find out what gauge wire by looking at the insulation. They sometime times print the gauge on the insulation.

One thing I would disagree with is that if the whole cable gets hot then it's the wrong size cable. If it's a bad connection, it will get really hot at the connection. It might eventually conduct the heat down the cable but if it's as hot as you're indicating, I would suspect the wrong size cable.

Put a volt meter across both ends of the negative cable. If it reads over 1/2 volt when cranking then the cable or connections are bad.

Gizler00 · 02-27-2008, 07:20 PM

Ok, I understand now about the cable. I will look at the cable and see what gauge it is. Another thing is when I had the old battery in it. It was going dead and I tried to jump it witha jump pack and a hard metal cable that is coming out of the firewall and down to the bottom of the block got really hot and actually melted off the electrical tape that was on it holding other wires to it. What do you think about the no spark situation. All ign components seem to be ok. Although I have not picked apart the wiring yet. Thanks for all the help and advice. I havent had any luck with the pictures tonight. I will post them tomorrow.
Thanks again

Mike Romain · 02-28-2008, 09:01 AM

You symptoms are still screaming bad ground or dragging starter. The body tub also has to have a good ground. The starter 'could' be trying to steal it's ground through that hard metal cable even which is a ground path for the sensors maybe.

Battery cables are known to fail internally where the cable attaches to the clamp or loop end, that's why I use a booster cable for testing grounds. i run it from the battery negative to the block, then to the body to see if there are any changes.

'If' the starter is indeed dragging, it will pull enough power that nothing is left over to turn on the spark. The voltage drops too low and the electronics won't turn on. (New Jeeps are 'really' bad for this) One check is to turn the engine to run, not start and watch to see if one spark jumps out of the coil when you turn it off. That would mean the spark has potential to be there.

To eliminate the starter as the whole problem, (dragging from worn out brushes), I run a booster cable set. I go from the battery negative to the bottom bolt of the starter frame and then go from the positive battery post and touch the 'nut' or the cable loop on the starter power. Don't touch the bolt threads, they will arc. If the starter then turns over fast, you for sure have connection issues.

The last set of brushes I bought were $15.00 from a starter rebuild shop, the set before that, from a GM dealer were $5.00. They aren't hard to put in. The local auto parts stores even sell rebuild kits for them that come with the bushing and bearing. Same for the alternator, kits are available.

Gizler00 · 02-28-2008, 02:20 PM

Mike, I really appreciate all the help. I will try to jump the starter tonight and see whats going on. That makes perfect sense why there is no spark. I will post pictures and give you an update.
THanks,
Mark

Gizler00 · 03-02-2008, 12:28 PM

Ok so I have tried a few things with the worong and still no spark. The whole time I was trying to get it to run there was no rotor under the dist!!!! But even with a new rotor there is still no spark. There are a few things that are really weird. Like, the battery ground goes to the front of the block. And the solenoid ground goes to the Radiator support (which is all rusty)!!! And there is another ground going down to the engine block that is all rusty. I think the other end goes to the starter. There is a mess between the coil and the solenoid wiring. But I hope that these pictures help with some explanation of why there is no spark.
MIke, I looked at the cables but I cannot tell what gauge they are. They Are not marked with any size designation. I think that I am going to just buy new cables. What gauge do you reccomend that I get. I appreciate all the help guys.

Gizler00 · 03-02-2008, 03:05 PM

Ok, So I looked a little deeper into the wiring and the Battery ground def goes to the block on the front of the engine, and the two starter grounds go to the starter and the other goes to the radiator support. The hot side has a lead that goes to the voltage regulator (im assuming), the coil hot also goes directly to the regulator. there is also a hot line that is going to the starter and one to the alternator. I tried to switch up the grounds and it would not even crank over. So I put everything back the way it was and it will crank over but still really really slow. So I think im going to pick up some new cales and a starter.Im wondering if I will get some spark if I run the hot line to the coil directly from the battery?? But as far as I can see all the wiring seems to be going to the right place. However that is if all the connections are good and the reg, icm, coil are all good. Im assuming because they are new. But that doesnt always mean anything. Any feedback would be great.
Thanks guys.

**bdmonist** · 03-02-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizler00

Ok so I have tried a few things with the worong and still no spark. The whole time I was trying to get it to run there was no rotor under the dist!!!! But even with a new rotor there is still no spark. There are a few things that are really weird. Like, the battery ground goes to the front of the block. And the solenoid ground goes to the Radiator support (which is all rusty)!!! And there is another ground going down to the engine block that is all rusty. I think the other end goes to the starter. There is a mess between the coil and the solenoid wiring. But I hope that these pictures help with some explanation of why there is no spark.
MIke, I looked at the cables but I cannot tell what gauge they are. They Are not marked with any size designation. I think that I am going to just buy new cables. What gauge do you reccomend that I get. I appreciate all the help guys.

No clicky!

Gizler00 · 03-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Thanks for the click free buddy. Sooooo much easier to look at.

HackFabrication · 03-02-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizler00

Like, the battery ground goes to the front of the block. And the solenoid ground goes to the Radiator support (which is all rusty)!!! And there is another ground going down to the engine block that is all rusty. I think the other end goes to the starter.

Okay, I sent you a PM, but I believe I've got your starter thing figured out. DO NOT TRY TO CRANK THE ENGINE ANY MORE......

Whoever hooked up the cables got them all messed up. The positive from the battery should go to one side of the solenoid. Then from the other side of the solenoid a cable (generally when you buy them from the auto parts store they are black-HOWEVER: They aren't negatives or grounds) goes to the starter. THAT'S IT. There is no solenoid ground. The solenoid grounds by attachment to the inner fender (which should be grounded along with the rest of the body).

If someone has a cable (looks to be black) going from the same side of the solenoid to the engine block and/or the radiator...Your getting a dead short every time you twist the key to start.

Hopefully, you haven't fried any of the electronics.....

Gizler00 · 03-02-2008, 05:19 PM

Hack,
Thanks for the quick reply buddy and the great advice. All the electronics arent even hooked up right now. Other than the ignition and starting and charging everything else is disconnected. I figured that the ground for the solenoid should only be at the fender well. So I should just eliminate the other ground to the radiator support all together?? And just stick with the batt neg-block, Batt pos-solenoid, Solenoid neg-starter, and solenoid pos-batt and voltage reg. Thank you thank you thank you. I really appreciate this so much.
MArk

HackFabrication · 03-02-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizler00

....And just stick with the batt neg-block, Batt pos-solenoid, Solenoid neg-starter, and solenoid pos-batt and voltage reg.

Okay...One more time: There is no Solenoid neg-starter. It is a POSITIVE lead (even though it's BLACK). The solenoid is just like a 'big switch'. When you twist the key, you turn the 'big switch' to ON. You are completing the positive side of the circuit and cranking the starter. When you release the key and it returns to 'Run', the 'big switch' goes OFF and breaks the positive side of the starter circuit and the starter quits cranking.

Hopefully your alternator didn't get fried.

Gizler00 · 03-02-2008, 05:31 PM

Hack,
I realized that I said solenoid Neg after I had already sent you a PM about the whole problem. I do realize that it is a big switch. Sorry I was having a brain fart. Thanks for all the help.