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Unread 12-10-2007, 09:49 PM   #46
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petey156
i want to be clear, will a sending unit work, yes or no?
thanks
Yup, no problem, but you may have to build the oil pressure block.
Or screw a 'T' into the block if you only need the second oil pressure switch.

I like having my gadgets, like the under hood gauge, so I build the block...

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Unread 12-12-2007, 12:02 PM   #47
kappa505
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I finished my dual battery set up today now for the test....leaving them hooked up while I go home for 3 weeks over christmas. I hope someone can help me out on the wireing questions that I have in the other threads.......please.
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Unread 12-16-2007, 12:55 PM   #48
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[QUOTE=JeepHammer][quote=jeepdaddy2000]At no time have I seen a post describing the "problem". Without this vital information, we write three pages of options in speculation and the poster decides.
Quote:

Yup, saw that.
Also saw where the Original Poster, Petey156, asked a couple of questions...



Got his answers,
Seems to me he's going with the relay version that isolates the batteries...
BIG MYSTERY SOLVED!

Doesn't seem he's too worried about the stuff posted on the thread as long as he is getting what he wants... (good attitude if you ask me, easy to get along with, and smart enough to let someone else ask the hard questions!)

Maybe he's learning something from the questions posed by the others.
You can always glean as much from other peoples' questions as you can think up on your own..... *IF* you are smart enough to pay attention to the conversation!

In this case, dual batteries seems to be a popular subject, and a few people have questions and some have contributed, like the guys with the pictures and other guys with part numbers and info.

Personally, I never do one of these threads without learning something!
I had no idea that



Yes, I spent some time inside the Arctic circle in the military, and the military will find a way to make things work in extreme conditions...
That's why I recommend REALLY large, fine strand battery cables, battery blankets to keep the batteries warm, water heaters instead of oil heaters, ect.
If it works for old, over used military vehicles, it will work for our old, overused Jeeps!



Sounds like you may have different opinions, and that is fine with me.
I for one will be glad to hear them! I'm always ready to learn something.
So, what is the solenoid from diesel pickup you are talking about? Is it something different than the regular starter solenoids I'm used to seeing in everything, or is it a combiner, or extra heavy duty unit or something?

Do you have diagrams or pictures of it's use?
Can you explain why this solenoid would be a better choice?
(Laymans terms please, I'm a little slow when it comes to overly technical stuff, I spend more time hunting in the dictionary than I do trying to understand what is being described!)

I'm always ready to learn something new, so if you have a better way, I'm sure going to listen!

Thought I'd let this post die down before answering. First, don't misunderstand me, I thing you have a lot of knowledge and this is in no way a personal attack, I sometimes question your practical experience as it pertains to the general public.
I'm going to use both this thread and this one http://jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=493530
To make my point. In both cases a lack of information or basic troubleshooting keeps us from making an informed recommendation. In the link above, pages were written on grounds and headlight relays. None of which were the problem. It wasn't until some basic trouble shooting procedures were applied that we found out that the problem was a bad connection. Not only did we fix the existing problem, but the poster learned how to "follow the power". This information can now be applied to future problems. This applies to this thread as well. The first question that comes to my mind when someone wants dual batteries is "why"? Not only will the answer to this question give us the ability to recommend the proper set up, but will also tell us if he is trying to eliminate a problem by bypassing it. An answer like "My battery goes dead every morning" indicates an electrical problem that needs to be fixed prior to a dual battery set up is installed. Back in "the day" when I was a mechanic, had I started an installation of either of these systems without questioning the customer, not only would I have done the customer a dis-service by charging him for systems he didn't need, but would not have repaired the existing problem to begin with.
You talk about gleaning information. The reality to me is if a poster has to ask for a diagram of a simple dual battery setup, gleaning for an answer probably isn't best. Instead, I would ask a couple of questions, then give a recommendation that is both simple and addresses the problem. While hand built aluminum manifolds attached by modified grease gun hoses might be the ticket for a race team, it is probably out of reach for the average Joe. Given a problem such as low CCA's, a simple parallel circuit is all that is necessary. Not only does this cost very little, but it is a very simple system to diagnose. If he is running a power amp and is draining his battery at every party, then as isolator is necessary. The simplest fix is a good RV unit that senses the recharging needs of both batteries independently. However, I never learned what the problem was, so again, answers are only speculative. (For what it is worth) My experience in the offroad world is to KISS everything. This simplicity allows owners to be able to do at least basic troubleshooting and repair when the rig breaks down on that dark stormy night.
Again, not a personal attack, just some observations. I enjoy your posts and find many of the ideas good. I just get a bit concerned over recommendations without information
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Unread 12-16-2007, 03:49 PM   #49
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WOW!

You have REALLY been stewing on this!
Don't know why you are bent out of shape with me,
BUT...
Since you made this public, I feel I have to respond.
...........................

Anyway,
Headlight guy asked about grounds and relays,
He got information on grounds and relays.

If he had asked for instructions on basic diagnostic of the head lights, we would have done that.

That pretty much makes your 'Point' moot.
----------------

For the dual battery thread, (this one) the Original Poster never said there was a problem! (or did you miss that altogether?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pety156
can someone post up some pics of a dual battery try installed? has anyone made there own battery isolater? who makes a relay(solenoid) that big? can i just use an ignition solenoid? a wiring diagram might help simplify this experence!!
I didn't see anything in there, or any of his subsequent posts about a 'Problem'...

He asked for information on dual battery rigs...
No statement or hint of a problem... Just seeking information!

He got some recommendations from people with aftermarket systems they are happy with,
(A pretty good way to find out about something that actually works,)

Some alternative, but relevant, information about battery pairing, charge controllers, series switches, relays, ect.
All stuff you need to know when doing a dual battery install...

He got multiple ideas for battery isolators, and some info on charge isolators as well...

He made up his mind on what he wanted to do, and asked relevant questions... and seeming got the information he was looking for, since he didn't PM me like most of the guys do when they actually start the projects.

And to be quite blunt, he made a point of ignoring you and your persistent questioning... that should have told you something...

Since then, I've posted a couple more pages of Ignition upgrades, one on using air pressure to keep water out of your distributor, posted two long overdue pages on keeping water out of hubs and rebuilding the front axle, and I'm working on a comprehensive page explaining common types of automotive relays for the average guy...

What did you do in the interim? Besides stew and build a rant designed to publicly chastise me?

Last edited by JeepHammer; 12-16-2007 at 04:00 PM..
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Unread 12-16-2007, 03:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kappa505
I finished my dual battery set up today now for the test....leaving them hooked up while I go home for 3 weeks over christmas. I hope someone can help me out on the wireing questions that I have in the other threads.......please.
Start it up, and make sure that both batteries are getting voltage from the alternator!
That one test is about all you really need to do.

When I'm changing oil, and doing the rest of the routine maintenance, I drop the 'Blue' wire from one starter solenoid at a time and make sure it starts on either one...

Check both batteries when the vehicle is running to make sure the isolator relay is working like it's supposed to...

That and an occasional battery water level check and terminal clean/grease is about all this system needs.
Load test the batteries once a year...
Not much more than a regulator single battery/single solenoid system needs...

Wait until you get into a situation where you need some cranking power!
You just won't believe what that second battery does for cold weather starts, difficult 'hot' starts, and how much faster the engine will crank over and start!

PS, you are NEVER stranded again due to a dead battery or failed alternator!...
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Unread 12-17-2007, 05:11 AM   #51
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A public apology is in order. This is a conversation that started as an observation on my part and spiraled out of control. No personal attack was meant. I just feel that without basic troubleshooting of the problem (including the owner) we run the risk of the wrong answer. Between the two of us perhaps we can find some middle ground.
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Unread 12-17-2007, 04:30 PM   #52
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I've cleaned the tail end of this thread up a bit, now play nice so that I don't have to lock it, m'kay?
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Unread 12-17-2007, 06:02 PM   #53
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Can't you just FEEL the LOVE!?
-----------------
----------------

Anyway, if anyone has any more questions about dual battery sets and set ups, ask away!

If you have a 'Problem' or 'Issue', please mark that VERY CLEARLY so the 'Problem' or 'Issue' can be addressed...

Asking for general information is OK with me too!
I personally don't have a problem with that.
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Unread 12-17-2007, 08:09 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
The older 35 amp alternators were pretty common, WAY back in the very late 60's and early 70's.
Since it's a Delco SI series alternator, most of the later SI series alternators will drop right in and hook right up to your current wiring.
The only thing I can't tell you is.... What your clocking is...
And it changed with the year and mount used...

Clocking is where the two wire plug in the side of the alternator is located.
If you look at the alternator from the back, there will be two mounting ears, one larger, on the bottom in the '6 O'clock' position,
One smaller, and threaded for an adjuster at the top in the '12 O'clock' position.
Most jeeps with an alternator on the passenger side of the engine are either 12 O'clock or 3 O'clock with the two wire plug.

I'm going to guess at 3 O'clock for yours,

Try having the parts guy look up a '1980 Buick Electra with a gas burning V-8 engine.
You will find alternators on that particular vehicle from:
42, 55, 63, 70, 76, 78, 80, 85 amp ratings, and one or two groove pulleys.
This link will give you an idea of what is available.

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...=11&SubCatId=2
you don't have to use NAPA alternators, they are expensive for remanufactured, this page is just to show you there are MANY choices...

If your current alternator isn't clocked at 12 O'clock or 3 O'clock, poke around on that site changing the vehicle make and model and it will give you more options, (just stick with GM vehicles)
OR,
It's not the hard to change the clocking of an alternator, but there IS A TRICK TO IT!
So ask before you take one apart to change the clocking and I'll tell you how to do it.

Lots of the 'Mega' alternator rebuilders CLAIM 120 or 150 amps, but they are using stock cases and stock size rectifiers...
And the ability of the rectifier to cool it's self is what will be the determining factor in the output...
So, claims much over 75 or 80 amps is crap...
The alternator may be able to 'Flash' that high, but it can't cool it's rectifier, so it can't make that much amperage for more than a few seconds.
You are pretty much better off with a good Factory style remanufactured alternator than one of the 'Mega' versions that cost 10 times as much.

I run 65 to 75 amp version most of the time and I have GREAT success with them, even with dual batteries, large communications radio rig, and I winch & weld off the batteries, so it gets a good workout...
.................................................. .............



18 Gauge is plenty for the relay. Doesn't take much to pull in a relay.
That's why later model cars use them for nearly everything.

The actual alternator to battery charge carrying wires should be 10 Ga.!
If you need a big honkin' relay and socket, I might be able to help you out, let me look around and see what I have cluttering up my workbench...
I checked my current alternator. It's a Delco 1102480. From what I was able to pull up, it's a 60 amp alt. I'll stick with that since it has a sticker on it from summer of 06. Should last quite some time.
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Unread 12-17-2007, 09:49 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.d.d.
I checked my current alternator. It's a Delco 1102480. From what I was able to pull up, it's a 60 amp alt. I'll stick with that since it has a sticker on it from summer of 06. Should last quite some time.
Look right behind the threaded mounting ear, the nomenclature and amprage should be stamped in there (if the reman company didn't screw things up, which is common...)
Here is a pic from an article I wrote on this Delco SI series alternators, how to wire them, how to upgrade them, how to turn them into welders and wind generators...



The amp rating posted on the front frame isn't necessarily the parts it's got inside after a 'Rebuild' or 'Remanufacture'
there are just gobs of different stator and rotor windings that will all interchange in the case, but don't necessarily make the rated amperage when used together...

To be absolutely sure, you can find a rebuild shop, and have it tested for amperage output, if you are worried about the output...

Did you do the wiring upgrade for the 'Sense', 'Sample' or #2 wire from the two wire plug?
If you use a fusible link (Fuse Wire, NOT an inline fuse) and connect that terminal to the starter solenoid battery cable connector, your alternator will get a better sample of what your battery is doing...

Most jeeps just loop that #2 'Sense' wire back around to the 'Batt' terminal on the back, and that doesn't do you much good...
The alternator already has an internal sample of what the 'Batt' terminal has...
It need to know what the battery is doing...
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Unread 12-18-2007, 11:55 AM   #56
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If memory serves me correctly, I ran that little brown “sense” wire into a relay activated by my ignition key being in the ACC or RUN position. I did this because when I installed my MSD 6AL, I couldn’t get the engine to shut down when I turned the key off.

Should I still look at installing a fusible link on that little brown wire, possibly up close by the alternator? The little brown wire now gets juice directly from a 10 gage wire coming straight from my battery post.
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Unread 12-18-2007, 03:02 PM   #57
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you will need a diode inthat line..Its back feeding ,and letting the engine self sustain running..if its a new msd,it should have been in the box..
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Unread 12-18-2007, 03:47 PM   #58
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You know, your right. I'm incorrect - I have the power going to the MSD set up with the relay. I have a diode in the little brown wire. My memory is about as long as another part of my anatomy...not very
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Unread 12-18-2007, 11:39 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.d.d.
If memory serves me correctly, I ran that little brown “sense” wire into a relay activated by my ignition key being in the ACC or RUN position. I did this because when I installed my MSD 6AL, I couldn’t get the engine to shut down when I turned the key off.

Should I still look at installing a fusible link on that little brown wire, possibly up close by the alternator? The little brown wire now gets juice directly from a 10 gage wire coming straight from my battery post.
No fusible link to the #1 (Excite) resistor wire.
I'm surprised that MSD didn't just tell you about a diode for that wire.
The common practice, when an alternator is excited off the ignition circuit, is to put a diode in facing the alternator plug...



When the relay gives up (which may be YEARS!) try things like in the pic above.

Lets 'In' the exciter current, but doesn't let the alternator back feed the ignition system.
(what the resistor wire did with the less sensitive factory ignition)
-- A relay is a little extreme, but will work!

I'm fat and lazy, so I'm all about simple!
KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid!

MSD is VERY good about their tech and sending the correct parts to get you going...
I don't know how long that is going to last though, AutoTronic Controls sold off MSD a while back and they have been traded a couple of times since then...
When that happens, it's usually a downward spiral for the company...

They have already cut a bunch of the stuff I liked to use on jeeps,
I-6 Ford distributor caps, Ford DuraSpark module replacements, stuff like that...
They are going 'Main Stream' with products, something Lester would have never done when he was running the company!
Main Stream is usually a cost cutting measure, and that means the place is owned by bankers instead of gear heads now...
It's a shame too, MSD has been a staple in every kind of automotive racing for nearly 40 years...
And Holley isn't going to buy them, They have their own line of CDI products, so I'm figuring a long, slow, painful death for MSD as it gets traded over and over again by people that don't have a clue what it's customer base is all about....
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Unread 12-20-2007, 12:58 PM   #60
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Duel Battery setup

I am installing 2 batteries on my CJ-5 and was wondering what the difference between jumping a dead battery off with another jeep and just putting a switch to isolate the batteries or run both. It seems to me it would be the same? I have read the threads on the subject but still wondering.
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