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Unread 12-10-2007, 07:54 AM   #31
kappa505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepdaddy2000
I have to ask, did the original poster get his question answered? I have yet to see a reply as to why a dual battery set up was needed in the first place. While all this discussion is cool, it gives all kinds of complicated options without any specific reconditions.
Each diagram does have recommended applications..... cold weather, accessories, reliability, ect. They also discuss using different batteries, starting or deep cycle. And there is some wireing troubleshooting thrown in. This baby has it all.

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Unread 12-10-2007, 12:07 PM   #32
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petey156
Yes, I am going to go with that last diagram with the oil pressure switch controlling a solenoid.

is the solenoid a regular ignition one, or is it something special for continous use?
No solenoid, I use a relatively inexpensive automotive relay that is designed for continuous use, and designed for the amperages it will be exposed to.

The 'Isolator/Combiner' switches and after market solenoids are VERY expensive, and if one part goes out, you are screwed and have to replace the entire thing at great cost, or wait on warranty that is usually slow as all get out.

With mine, every part is 'Off The Shelf' and easy to get/replace,
And if some part fails, you change only that part.
Bop into any auto parts store and say, "I want a ford starter solenoid", or "I want a driving light relay", or "I want an oil pressure switch for..." and for $10 you have your part on the spot...

With the expensive solenoid systems, if the transfer solenoid fails, you are up 'The Creek' for self rescue.
With mine, if either solenoid fails, you won't know the difference until you do maintenance...
Then it's a $10 fix.
.........................

When you hit the key, BOTH starter solenoids send juice to the starter.
If one battery or solenoid is faltering, the other will do the job just like a factory system.
You wont even know one has failed with out testing...

The second battery solenoid is there to double your amperage to the starter.
Since most of the time the biggest restriction is at the solenoid, a second starter solenoid will double the effective amperage to the starter on cold days,
And provides integrated redundancy in the event of a solenoid or battery failure.

Oil pressure switch is there to trigger the isolation between batteries when the engine is 'Off' or stalls.
When the oil pressure comes up, the oil pressure switch connects BOTH batteries to each other via the relay, so they both charge/discharge at the same rate with vehicle draws.

The common automotive relay is in the circuit to make sure the second battery gets charged when the engine is running and the oil pressure is up.
Again, this is seamless, and requires NO action from the operator, so you don't have to worry about forgetting to flip a switch, or complicated explanations if someone else drives your jeep...

Since only the PRIMARY battery NORMALLY supplies current to the ignition switch, if you run one battery COMPLETELY DEAD so the primary battery can't power/activate the ignition switch...

Then the 'Rescue' switch on the dash can be activated to make the second ISOLATED battery power the system long enough to get things started!
Simple but elegant!

By running the 'Rescue' switch through the relay, instead of just jumping the oil pressure switch, there are no LIVE wires strung through your jeep for this rescue system!
(A big plus if you drive off road a lot where wires get rubbed through or melted through in odd places pretty often!)
You CAN jump the oil pressure switch instead of using a relay, but that will be a 'Hot' line into the cockpit.

Doing things this way also means there is no 'Maintenance Load' on the batteries while the jeep is just sitting.
Lots of the 'Isolation/Combiner' and 'Charge Isolators' have 'Maintenance Loads' or 'Phantom Loads' where current is leaking through switches or circuitry.

This is very much like my ignition upgrades, stock parts used to YOUR benifit, instead of expensive, complicated, aftermarket parts that take weeks or months to get warrantied if something goes wrong (if there even IS a warranty...)

Last edited by JeepHammer; 12-10-2007 at 12:25 PM..
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Unread 12-10-2007, 03:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kappa505
Each diagram does have recommended applications..... cold weather, accessories, reliability, ect. They also discuss using different batteries, starting or deep cycle. And there is some wireing troubleshooting thrown in. This baby has it all.
That is kinda what my point was. At no time have I seen a post describing the "problem". Without this vital information, we write three pages of options in speculation and the poster decides. If all he is looking for is some extra CCA's in the morning, then a simple parallel circuit through the stock solenoid is fine. I spent two years in Alaska and watched stock solenoids start engines in -30 temps. Even if he doesn't feel comfortable with the stock unit, a simple $20 upgrade to a solenoid off a later diesel pick up application will work. We don't even know if he needs to isolate a battery, or if the dual system is being employed to overcome another problem which we know nothing about. When you go to a doctor, does he lay out a ton of options and let you decide, or does he ask you a ton of questions then recommend a course of action.
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Unread 12-10-2007, 04:40 PM   #34
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Jeephammer - What is a good junkyard alternator upgrade for my little I6? I'm planning on installing several KC's (and dual batteries). All I have is the stock alt, maybe 35 amp stock.
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Unread 12-10-2007, 04:57 PM   #35
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Jeephammer-please check your inbox. Also, I am building the relay through the oil switch with 18 guage.......is that going to be ok?
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Unread 12-10-2007, 05:58 PM   #36
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I have a question about wrangler dual battery set up likw pictured on the first page..I just added one to my new cj that was in a box of extras,and I do not have matching batterys..The primary batter is smaller than the secondary battery and goes dead after sitting for a couple of days..It does recharge after running the jeep for a while though..Will this system cuase the smaller battery to discharge through the selenoid? or is it just a beat battery?..Whats an easy way to test to see if there is a drain on the battery through the jeep..It has a painless wiring harness,but god knows if the PO messed up anything..There are some bundles wires here and there..
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Unread 12-10-2007, 06:11 PM   #37
kappa505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Crowley
I have a question about wrangler dual battery set up likw pictured on the first page..I just added one to my new cj that was in a box of extras,and I do not have matching batterys..The primary batter is smaller than the secondary battery and goes dead after sitting for a couple of days..It does recharge after running the jeep for a while though..Will this system cuase the smaller battery to discharge through the selenoid? or is it just a beat battery?..Whats an easy way to test to see if there is a drain on the battery through the jeep..It has a painless wiring harness,but god knows if the PO messed up anything..There are some bundles wires here and there..
On page two of this thread there is a good way to test that I just used today. It will narrow the possibilites of where you are losing power.
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Unread 12-10-2007, 06:30 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepdaddy2000
At no time have I seen a post describing the "problem". Without this vital information, we write three pages of options in speculation and the poster decides.
Yup, saw that.
Also saw where the Original Poster, Petey156, asked a couple of questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petey156
"my jeep has a sending unit for the oil pressure gauge, with this circuit work for the switch?
thanks for all the wonderful info and help!!"

"Yes, I am going to go with that last diagram with the oil pressure switch controlling a solenoid.
is the solenoid a regular ignition one, or is it something special for continuous use?"
Got his answers,
Seems to me he's going with the relay version that isolates the batteries...
BIG MYSTERY SOLVED!

Doesn't seem he's too worried about the stuff posted on the thread as long as he is getting what he wants... (good attitude if you ask me, easy to get along with, and smart enough to let someone else ask the hard questions!)

Maybe he's learning something from the questions posed by the others.
You can always glean as much from other peoples' questions as you can think up on your own..... *IF* you are smart enough to pay attention to the conversation!

In this case, dual batteries seems to be a popular subject, and a few people have questions and some have contributed, like the guys with the pictures and other guys with part numbers and info.

Personally, I never do one of these threads without learning something!
I had no idea that

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepdaddy2000
I spent two years in Alaska and watched stock solenoids start engines in -30 temps.
Yes, I spent some time inside the Arctic circle in the military, and the military will find a way to make things work in extreme conditions...
That's why I recommend REALLY large, fine strand battery cables, battery blankets to keep the batteries warm, water heaters instead of oil heaters, ect.
If it works for old, over used military vehicles, it will work for our old, overused Jeeps!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepdaddy2000
Even if he doesn't feel comfortable with the stock unit, a simple $20 upgrade to a solenoid off a later diesel pick up application will work.
Sounds like you may have different opinions, and that is fine with me.
I for one will be glad to hear them! I'm always ready to learn something.
So, what is the solenoid from diesel pickup you are talking about? Is it something different than the regular starter solenoids I'm used to seeing in everything, or is it a combiner, or extra heavy duty unit or something?

Do you have diagrams or pictures of it's use?
Can you explain why this solenoid would be a better choice?
(Laymans terms please, I'm a little slow when it comes to overly technical stuff, I spend more time hunting in the dictionary than I do trying to understand what is being described!)

I'm always ready to learn something new, so if you have a better way, I'm sure going to listen!

Last edited by JeepHammer; 12-16-2007 at 02:55 PM..
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Unread 12-10-2007, 07:22 PM   #39
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.d.d.
Jeephammer - What is a good junkyard alternator upgrade for my little I6? I'm planning on installing several KC's (and dual batteries). All I have is the stock alt, maybe 35 amp stock.
The older 35 amp alternators were pretty common, WAY back in the very late 60's and early 70's.
Since it's a Delco SI series alternator, most of the later SI series alternators will drop right in and hook right up to your current wiring.
The only thing I can't tell you is.... What your clocking is...
And it changed with the year and mount used...

Clocking is where the two wire plug in the side of the alternator is located.
If you look at the alternator from the back, there will be two mounting ears, one larger, on the bottom in the '6 O'clock' position,
One smaller, and threaded for an adjuster at the top in the '12 O'clock' position.
Most jeeps with an alternator on the passenger side of the engine are either 12 O'clock or 3 O'clock with the two wire plug.

I'm going to guess at 3 O'clock for yours,

Try having the parts guy look up a '1980 Buick Electra with a gas burning V-8 engine.
You will find alternators on that particular vehicle from:
42, 55, 63, 70, 76, 78, 80, 85 amp ratings, and one or two groove pulleys.
This link will give you an idea of what is available.

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...=11&SubCatId=2
you don't have to use NAPA alternators, they are expensive for remanufactured, this page is just to show you there are MANY choices...

If your current alternator isn't clocked at 12 O'clock or 3 O'clock, poke around on that site changing the vehicle make and model and it will give you more options, (just stick with GM vehicles)
OR,
It's not the hard to change the clocking of an alternator, but there IS A TRICK TO IT!
So ask before you take one apart to change the clocking and I'll tell you how to do it.

Lots of the 'Mega' alternator rebuilders CLAIM 120 or 150 amps, but they are using stock cases and stock size rectifiers...
And the ability of the rectifier to cool it's self is what will be the determining factor in the output...
So, claims much over 75 or 80 amps is crap...
The alternator may be able to 'Flash' that high, but it can't cool it's rectifier, so it can't make that much amperage for more than a few seconds.
You are pretty much better off with a good Factory style remanufactured alternator than one of the 'Mega' versions that cost 10 times as much.

I run 65 to 75 amp version most of the time and I have GREAT success with them, even with dual batteries, large communications radio rig, and I winch & weld off the batteries, so it gets a good workout...
.................................................. .............

Quote:
Originally Posted by kappa505
Jeephammer-please check your inbox. Also, I am building the relay through the oil switch with 18 guage.......is that going to be ok?
18 Gauge is plenty for the relay. Doesn't take much to pull in a relay.
That's why later model cars use them for nearly everything.

The actual alternator to battery charge carrying wires should be 10 Ga.!
If you need a big honkin' relay and socket, I might be able to help you out, let me look around and see what I have cluttering up my workbench...
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Unread 12-10-2007, 07:31 PM   #40
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Crowley
I have a question about wrangler dual battery set up likw pictured on the first page..I just added one to my new cj that was in a box of extras,and I do not have matching batterys..The primary batter is smaller than the secondary battery and goes dead after sitting for a couple of days..It does recharge after running the jeep for a while though..Will this system cuase the smaller battery to discharge through the selenoid? or is it just a beat battery?..Whats an easy way to test to see if there is a drain on the battery through the jeep..It has a painless wiring harness,but god knows if the PO messed up anything..There are some bundles wires here and there..
Charge both batteries, then have both tested with a LOAD tester.
The only way to determine what a battery will do under a load, is to PUT IT UNDER AN ACTUAL LOAD...
---------------------------------

The only way you can run two different Ages, Sizes or Kinds of batteries together is with a charge isolator.
(Different than a battery isolator)

A smaller, older or different kind of battery will demand different charging than the newer battery it's paired with...
And pretty soon, the new battery is boiled dry because it's been overcharged...
The older battery kept demanding charge and cooked the newer battery,
OR, the larger battery kept demanding charge and cooked the smaller one,
OR, The got charged too fast and cooked when paired with a Starting battery...

If you use a charge isolator, that device will hook to the alternator, and to each battery, and 'Sense' what each battery needs, and deliver only what each battery needs.

The fastest way to kill a bunch of brand new batteries is to pair them next to an old one or a damaged one that is going to demand constant charging.

If you don't have, or want to use a charge isolator (and there ARE problems with charge isolators),
Then you MUST use two batteries the same AGE, SIZE and TYPE.
Either two starting batteries, or two Deep cycle batteries, or two AGM (optima & Like) or two Gel Cells...
And they have to be the same age and size,
Or you Will have problems.
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Unread 12-10-2007, 07:37 PM   #41
kappa505
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I ended up building my one socket (wires and connectors). I went to radio shack and picked up the 30 amp relay that has the same numbers on it as the one in the diagram. The wires running from the oil pressure switch to the relay and all the wires running from the relay to the starter soleniod are all 18 gauge. The wires comming from the battery to the solenoid are all 4 or 6 gauge. If you do find a relay with socket I will gladly take it, as it is probably better than the crap that I just built. Jeephammer-I also sent you a pm. Thanks
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Unread 12-10-2007, 07:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kappa505
I ended up building my one socket (wires and connectors). I went to radio shack and picked up the 30 amp relay that has the same numbers on it as the one in the diagram. The wires running from the oil pressure switch to the relay and all the wires running from the relay to the starter soleniod are all 18 gauge. The wires comming from the battery to the solenoid are all 4 or 6 gauge. If you do find a relay with socket I will gladly take it, as it is probably better than the crap that I just built. Jeephammer-I also sent you a pm. Thanks
Well, the wires from the relay to the solenoids sure can't be 18 Ga.! They MUST handle up to 30 amps, what the relay was rated for.
I use 8 Ga. wires, but my relay is capable of 70 to 120 amps.

Just out of curiosity, what did you pay for that relay and socket?
I'm trying to figure out if there is any market for these components with top quality parts...

What I use is Hella 12 volt, Relays,
Hella p/n 4RA 003 510-70 ....... 70 amp nominal relays, and you normally don't find that sort of thing at Radio Shack!

The one I like to use is from a Harley Davidson, it's so potent, it's the starter 'solenoid' on a Harley starter.
About $12 over the internet, and about $50 if you buy it from Harley.
If you can find it in the local auto parts stores, it's about $20.

Last edited by JeepHammer; 12-10-2007 at 08:39 PM..
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Unread 12-10-2007, 08:05 PM   #43
kappa505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer
Well, the wires from the relay to the solenoids sure can't be 18 Ga.! They MUST handle up to 30 amps, what the relay was rated for.
I use 8 Ga. wires, but my relay is capable of 70 to 120 amps.

Just out of curiosity, what did you pay for that relay and socket?
I'm trying to figure out if there is any market for these components with top quality parts...

What I use is Hella 12 volt, 4RA Relays,
Hella p/n 003 510-70 ....... 70 amp nominal relays, and you normally don't find that sort of thing at Radio Shack!
The relay was 6.99 and didnt have a socket (put some connectors on 18ga wire). So I need to change some wires to 10 gauge. I can handle that.
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Unread 12-10-2007, 09:33 PM   #44
petey156
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i want to be clear, will a sending unit work, yes or no?
thanks
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Unread 12-10-2007, 09:43 PM   #45
kappa505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petey156
i want to be clear, will a sending unit work, yes or no?
thanks
Yes, it will work. (good thread by the way)
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