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Unread 11-25-2013, 09:18 PM   #76
JeepHammer
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Buy one, build one, just be informed.

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Unread 11-26-2013, 12:26 AM   #77
WSS
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Matt, I blew it on the HR I/C! Before researching much and communicating with Mike at HR, I purchased a NOCO isolator. I lost the reciept when I wanted to return it. I am stuck with it, if it fails or does not deliver the needed voltage, I will eat the 50 bucks and do the HR I/C. I have EVERYTHING needed for the project now! Boy, what a drain on the wallet. WOL. I could have got the yellow top for less online (around $20 less) but the warranty requires return to dealer, so I bought one from AutoZone and can return it to any AutoZone if needed.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 04:32 AM   #78
Matt1981CJ7
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If anyone is still interested in this, below is the response from Mike at Hellroaring Technologies to Aaron's latest diatribe. Mike's comments are in bold.

--------------

Not to crap on your enthusiasm for 'Helroaring' products, or to crap on their products, but this seems me it's the same old isolator that's been around for years...

1) False - These are not the same as a diode isolator. It is all solid state, but a combiner as well.

What I see is...Two solid state diodes feeding battery two while charging.

2) False. The diodes are shown to illustrate the one polarity of isolation, not for charging. During charging, the solid state power switching is ON or Combined. Therefore, the diodes are bypassed with less than 0.001 ohm resistance, i.e. which is less than the wiring.


No specifications on forward voltage drop, but battery two is alrady on the 'Hind Teet' as it were, since charging supply is taken from battery one terminal.

3) False. Specs are in the instructions available on the web site. Charging is taken from the alternator output, not battery one... Both batteries will see the full alternator voltage as you can attest to Matt...


That means anything battery one DOESN'T CONSUME Gets to the charge isolator diodes, then the forward voltage drop gets taken out,
Then battery two finally gets what's left....


4) False. This statement is based upon the false statement #2 above. Sorry, both batteries will see the full alternator voltage and will charge independently.


Now, with low forward voltage drop diodes, they might not take a large bite out of the charge current, which is going to be lower than battery one no matter what you do,
But it's worth mentioning.


5) False. Again, based on false statement #2 above, so naturally, the conclusion is false. Both batteries will see the full alternator voltage within an insignificant 0.01V when fully charged.



-----------------

What I see next is, NO CHARGE REGULATION. This is not a regulator/isolator,

True! It does not provide regulation. That is because the function of regulation is in the Alternator...


it's just an isolator.

6) False. It is not just any Isolator. It has advanced functions for automatic combining.

That means the same size, age, type of batteries or you will cook one or both batteries.

7) False. Different type of batteries (i.e. wet cell, AGM, SLA, etc) will charge independently. Cooking is a result of excess voltage from improper regulation. They don't need to be the same size, age, type when properly isolated. This comes into play when batteries are hard wired in parallel and sitting idle. With our setups, they are not in parallel when not charging, or otherwise combined on purpose.


You still need a charging regulator/isolator if you have two different types of batteries... Or ages, or sizes...

8) False. Consider what occurs when you have a charge source at the normal alternator voltage of say 14.4 Vdc. Connect that 14.4V to one battery. Then, connect that same 14.4V source to another battery that is a different size. They both see the 14.4 Vdc, not each other. Current only goes into each battery and either trickles or charges them. At 14.4V, current never goes from one battery to the other. So, it makes no difference their size, age, etc...



------------------

The third thing I see is ELECTRO-MECHANICAL SWITCHING to combine the batteries!

9) False. There are NO mechanical switching in the BIC's. They are ALL solid state power switching.

A 'Relay' you can't service! If it goes, contacts carbon over, contacts burn up, activation coil fails, whatever, you are stuck with a NON-WORKING UNIT YOU CAN'T SERVICE.

Like many things, the solid state power switching is not serviceable, but there are no contacts to wear out, has no activation coil, and it is waterproof to the electronic devices...


Apparently, the contacts are not rated for full battery load rating, because they are using TWO sets of contacts!

No mechanical contacts here. Solid state power switching, being very consistent with ON resistance, can easily be paralleled for equal sharing and multiplying current carrying capability. Two sides are used here for the Backup starting and Combined winching functions. Nothing wrong with that...

This means SOME redundancy with LOW AMPERAGE applications, like 'Boosting' a partly drained primary battery, but you sure can't throw a winch or starter motor at one set of contacts and expect them to live...

It is not designed nor intended to operate a winch from just half a BIC. Winching is operated from the Main battery. The operator has the option to Combine the Backup and SHARE power from both batteries. Only 1/2 of the total winching current need go through the BIC. Even less goes through when the engine is running.



-------------------

Those breaker point contacts also completely blow the 'Solid State' thing out of the water, no matter what advertising says.
Breaker points/Relay contacts are MOVING PARTS, not solid state, so again, you have failed MOVING parts you can't service.
Once it's toast, you have to wait on warranty, or buy a new one and wait for it to come in....


10) False. Blatently False. There are absolutely NO mechanical breaker point contacts, mechanical contacts of any sort in the BIC's. They are truly ALL solid state power switching devices...


In this case, I would carry a 'Spare' since you can't use common relays to fix the issues this thing is eventually going to have...

Before one carries a spare, one would need to have an original first...


--------------------

The THIRD THING I SEE IS WHAT I'VE WARNED ABOUT TIME AND TIME AGAIN,
They connect your RESERVE BATTERY DIRECTLY TO THE DEAD BATTERY!


So what...


There goes around 200 Amps trying to power it's way through that dead primary battery (Battery #1 in diagram) before you can even hope get current to the starter relay....

How does he know that... Has he tested such? We have, and we have found that one may see perhaps a 50A peak for a second or so and quickly drops off to under 10A after a few seconds. What also happens is that the voltage of the depleted battery rises and begins charging. If left combined long enough, one could end up with two, about half charged batteries. But, that is not the intent. One should be able to start right away. The Main battery does not become a detriment because normal cranking tends to occur near 9.5 to 11Vdc under load. At that voltage, even a depleted main battery does not draw anything significant from the system. And, if it does have anything left partial charge, it will still help.




Then you have to try and turn the engine on a SINGLE starter (factory) relay,

Sorry, I don't understand this one. Doesn't the vehicle operate normally on the factory single starter relay? I don't see what is wrong with that...


AND you have to try and overcome the drain of a dead battery while you are trying to turn that starter..

11) False. Keep this in mind. A depleted battery (i.e. below 11.4V rest voltage) tends to have a high internal resistance. So, the full current capability from the Backup battery will be available to start. At the cranking voltage of 9.5 to 11V, a depleted battery will not add any significant drain to the cranking load.


Warned about relays BETWEEN BATTERIES,

I don't know what he Warned about. But, we recommend against mechanical relays Between Batteries as well. But, probably for very different reasons. Our reason is this. Before we designed the BIC's, we did some research on the combiner concept by using solenoids as the switching device. What we found was that as the solenoid ages and gets used over time, the contacts gradually degrade to a point where the normal voltage between a discharged or partially charged battery and alternator voltage (i.e. 14.4 to an discharged 11.4V battery, a delta of only 3V) can be insufficient to break down the crud that builds up on the contacts. So, that tends to result in inconsistent contact resistance and often excessively high resistance. We have seen in excess of one ohm contact resistance on an aged solenoid at that 3V differential. You can take that same high contact resistance solenoid and put 12V on one side and a load on the other (resulting in a 12V initial contact differential) and it will easily break down the crud and show very low contact resistance. So, one could check a solenoid this way, think it is good, yet when applied between batteries for charging, it can result in very poor charging characteristics. We have solved that issue with our solid state power switching, so that the (effective contact) resistance is consistently very low and predictable regardless of how low the voltage differential is across the terminals.


when the relay is much better served delivering FULL BATTERY CURRENT TO THE STARTER/IGNITION instead of a dead shot the dead battery has become.

In our Backup start application, the Depleted battery is effectively has become of no significance...


Just the way it's wired is going to cause a battery charge imbalance,

12) False. Each battery will charge independently. Each can reach full charge as it needs.

The way it discharges causes a battery charge imbalance,

They do not need to be Balanced in charge. The Backup battery tends to remain at full charge. The Main battery will tend to exercise normally.

It's very bad at delivering current to the starter in a 'Self Jump' situation,

13) False. Many people have used the "Self Jump" situation with excellent results. He give no explanation as to why he thinks it is "very bad"...

It's probably not rated for full winch pulls, but then again it doesn't have to be if both batteries are charged and pulling, it only has to deliver HALF the winch demand,

True. It is not intended to winch entirely through the BIC, but a portion to share in a continuous winch pull. But, it gives the operator the option to either save the Backup battery for starting in the event the main gets drained and the engine dies, or to combine the backup for a little extra power and extend battery capacity.


But you are STILL trying to force BOTH batteries through the connection at the Primary Battery...

Partially True. It depends on how an individual makes his connections. There are many different ways to connect or stack or use multiple terminals, one of which could make this statement true. But, that is an individuals choice.


Things like this are EXACTLY why I designed the wiring and built the system I have,

We don't have a problem with those who do their own thing. We won't make enough for everyone anyway. Only those who can appreciate what we do will be able to benefit from our stuff. However, we would ask to not make false statements about our stuff. We are fellow Jeepers, we produce in the USA, and we work to enhance off highway opportunities. We have recently worked with the FS to create some awesome OHV challenges on the trails locally. For those who visit NW Montana, look us up...Mike

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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:57 AM   #79
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Diodes, Capacitors and their ilk were (and to some extent still are) mystifying to me, thanks to sages like JH, Coiz and others I was able to get all my eletrics for now set up and working. Since delving into my project(s) the information I've noted here has certainly piqued my interest of learning and studying more about electrics but work/life intrudes often when I'm trying to accomplish new things dangit!
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Unread 11-26-2013, 09:11 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Looks like a very well thought out home made job to me.
Looks like someone added smaller automotive relays to the front of the tray.

Always good to have a spot to mount relays! Taking the load off the factory wiring harness makes for brighter lights, more accessory power, and fewer blown fuses!

Since you are running TWO BATTERIES, that little relay on the front will work fine for charging both batteries, while isolating one when the engine isn't running.

If you have an I-6 engine, or electric choke, you already have the oil pressure switch installed that could power up one of those relays you already have.
Electric chokes are activated by oil pressure in most I-6 Jeeps, so it's all there for you already.

A second starter relay, and you can have a completely redundant, completely isolated rescue battery arrangement that will charge, discharge the dual batteries at the same rates, (so the batteries live longer).
When I installed that Ford PDB,



yep that's nine (count 'em) NINE relay positions

I eliminated those exposed relays on the tray in favor of consolidating all of my relays (primarily headlights, fog and driving lights and Mystique dual fan) and all of my engine compartment fuses into one compact little package so far so good.

Having one of those blue old school battery isolators in 'Easy Bake' my Black panel van I knew the footprint would be too large to fit under the hood so I went with this Stinger SGP 32



that looks a lot like a starter relay to me to serve the two batteries.

As far as the electric choke goes on my AFB (on the 360) I just ran a junction line from one of the key on lines that feed one of the fan relays.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 01:38 AM   #81
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An Isolator and solenoid Tech question......

OK, I am running a NOCO 140 amp solid state isolator. Easy enough to install. three wires, one from alt then the other two to their respective battery. Now, my question is, can I use a relay solenoid to combine the two batteries while the isolator is connected? Meaning, is it ok for the isolator to have both outputs connected together when the batteries are mechanically linked together via the relay solenoid?

Here is a pic that shows the hook up, the isolator's two outside studs are the outputs, they go to the solenoid, the left side in the pic will charge main batt, the right side of the solenoid will charge the "spare".

The red 8ga wires are the ones in question



another view:

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Unread 12-02-2013, 08:49 AM   #82
Matt1981CJ7
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Dang, Tommy, that NOCO unit is HUGE!

What do the batteries actually connect to in that setup? Do you have a diagram?

Have you asked your question to NOCO?

Matt
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Unread 12-02-2013, 08:50 AM   #83
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WOW! YOU GUYS DO GOOD WORK!

Turbogus, I like those little power centers, compact car versions are great for Jeeps, and if you avoid the freaky fuse versions you find on imports from time to time, they are pretty easy to work with.
They make for a REALLY CLEAN install!

WSS,
Since 'Matt' wasn't offering any answers,
With what you have there, it will go pretty compactly into place.
No extra room even under the hood of these old CJ-5s!

Are you running two different kinds of batteries?
If you have two of the SAME batteries, you can connect them together, via a continuous duty relay or lighting type relay (When Running) and have no issues at all. (See Below or click on links in my signature line)

Two of the SAME kinds of batteries, you don't need a CHARGE CONTROLLER.
When wired CORRECTLY, the alternator will see one big battery instead of two smaller ones, and charge them just fine.

Two DIFFERENT batteries and you need a charge controller.

As for connecting two of the same batteries, they can stay connected anytime the engine is running.
Oil pressure switch is a good way for the electrical system to know if the engine is running.
$7, Reliable, Available Everywhere, Inexpensive & Easy To Install.

Also not big and ugly like most charge isolators are.

I usually don't allow the full charge current to pass through an oil pressure switch, they just aren't normally built for that kind of current.
So I use the oil pressure switch to power up a common lighting style relay to connect alternator to BOTH batteries,
AND to connect both batteries to the Jeep systems when the vehicle is running so both batteries charge/discharge together.

Again, simple, reliable, available everywhere, inexpensive and easy to wire, fully automatic.

---

If you have TWO DIFFERENT KINDS of batteries, the batteries will have to be charged from a CHARGE REGULATOR...
But for short term applications, like having a winch running, starting the vehicle, ect.
It's easy to install a second starter relay to supply the second battery directly to your electrical load.
Combining the two short term won't hurt either battery directly...

WSS, with VERY little rewire, you can weld off your batteries! I love those Anderson connectors, they make for combining the batteries in series, for 24 volts, and you can weld off them,
And they make for super easy jump staring other vehicles, connecting things like winches, snow blades, ect.

------------

NOW! To clear a few things up, and I know Matt will be lurking, so expect a rant from the guy that says education and long posts are unnecessary... Sorry, nothing I can do about that. He's locked in on ONE way to do things, and the newly converted are the hardest to teach anything different...

----------------------

First off, when you put the isolator BETWEEN batteries, the 'Secondary' battery will always be a little undercharged.
Fact of DC electronics.

Charge comes from the alternator, hits the first battery...
Since the first battery is directly in line with the regulator in the alternator, the alternator gets the biggest 'Signal' from the first battery...







THIS IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET ACROSS WITH 'BETWEEN BATTERIES' ISOLATORS.
THE SECOND BATTERY IS FORCED THROUGH A RESTRICTIVE RELAY/SOLENOID/COMBINER TO REACH THE PRIMARY BATTERY.

AFTER THAT, THE COMBINED ELECTRICAL CURRENT IS FORCED THROUGH A RESTRICTIVE STARTER RELAY...



The reason for this is simple electrical principal, and most of you know it...
ELECTRICAL CURRENT SEEKS THE SHORTEST PATH TO GROUND.
The first battery is the shortest path since the current has to continue through cables, combiner/isolator and continue to second battery.
Simple, basic electrical principal.

When the starter, winch or whatever draws from a system with isolator between batteries,
The first battery takes the biggest hit.
Same reason, it's more 'Available' than the second battery, shorter path to 'Ground'.

-------------

I'll entertain Matt when he says the 'Diodes' don't have a large forward voltage drop...
That is on the web site, they say their diodes have a very low voltage drop.

With that taken into consideration, consider also the wire terminations.
We all know that TERMINATING a wire run creates resistance. Fact of life.
No matter how big the cable or terminal end, you still have resistance built into a connection.
In the case of the unit Matt is talking about, it looks like the terminals are plated, but it also looks like the terminals are 1/4" or 5/16", and with the terminal end on the cable, then connecting to a threaded terminal SMALLER than the battery cable, you have restriction, or RESISTANCE in that connection.

This will reduce the amount of current the SECOND battery can transmit to the first battery,
AND ANOTHER SET OF CABLE TERMINAL RESISTANCE,
Then transmit through the first battery's clamp terminals,
Then through a starter relay, rated at around 320 Amps at most,
Then down to the starter.

Matt's big restriction, or resistance to current flow, is at the STARTER RELAY.
Two batteries trying to force current through a factory starter relay that is rated for 320 Amps maximum.





NOW, SECOND 'STARTER RELAY' ADDS FULL SECOND BATTERY CURRENT TO STARTER MOTOR ON START UP,
IT ALSO ADDS 100% REDUNDANCY TO YOUR BATTERY, CABLE, STARTER RELAY FEED TO THE STARTER MOTOR.
THIS IS CHEAP, SIMPLE, EFFECTIVE, AUTOMATIC AND GIVES THAT STARTER A 100% INCREASE IN AVAILABLE CURRENT.


Since I covered all this before with winch and dual battery installs, I won't cover the bulk of it again... It's in the posted 'Sticky' threads in my signature line...

------------------------

Now, if you have a CHEAP, DISCOUNT SORE starter relay, the losses are even worse...

On cold morning starts, your starter might demand 700 Amps, while the starter relay is only going to deliver around 175 to 200 Amps maximum.

If you have a good quality brass terminal starter relay, that relay will transmit around 320 Amps to the starter,
STILL STARVING THE STARTER.




Which is why I suggest you should use a SECOND, HIGH QUALITY starter relay on the second battery.
This will deliver a full 320 Amps to the starter directly from the second battery when you hit the key switch,
And it will automatically 'Isolate' when you let off the key switch.

SIMPLE, RELIABLE, REDUNDANT, AUTOMATIC & INEXPENSIVE.
Depending on the Second Starter Relay you choose,
5/16" or 3/8" COPPER terminals that transmit much more electrical current.

And it's the same thing that winches have been doing to transmit large amperage to starter motors for years...

------------------

Now, once you have done that, created a second battery,
Second fully redundant starter relay that transmits full battery current to the starter motor,
You are left with charging/isolating the second battery.

Again, you have to go back to simple, basic electrical principles...
Two batteries, IN BANK (en banc), meaning you are treating two smaller batteries like one large battery, so they both charge, discharge at the same rates,

AND,
You still want them isolated when the engine is NOT running so you have one charged battery to 'Self Rescue'...

Since the second starter relay kicks 'Open' or kicks 'Out' when you let off the key 'Start' position, the second battery stays isolated.

To connect those batteries 'In Bank' to each other for normal vehicle operations and charging, you simply use a small automotive relay.
VERY little forward voltage drop, and BOTH batteries 'See' the voltage drop, no diodes getting in the way of charging,
Not second battery behind an isolator with extra connections,
No second battery being isolated from primary when running, so both batteries charge and discharge together...






NOTICE THE 'NEGATIVE' OR 'GROUND' CABLE COMES OUT OF THE DUAL BATTERIES ON THE OPPSITE TERMINAL THE POSITIVE CABLE CONNECTS TO!
THIS IS CRITICAL TO KEEP THE BATTERIES CHARGING AND DISCHARGING TOGETHER!

THIS IS SOMETHING IS SEE SCREWED UP ALL THE TIME, AND IT'S MANDATORY WHEN TREATING TWO SMALLER BATTERIES LIKE ONE LARGE BATTERY!


Oil pressure switch to tell the system when the engine is running, a relay to connect the two batteries together DIRECTLY, no 'First & Second' both direct connections...

If you have an electric choke and manifold heater, then you already have the oil pressure switch in place.
You simply add an automotive relay, just like the one that takes care of manifold heater,
Connect it to the same oil pressure switch that controls manifold heater,
And you are off to the races.

Some of us had older V-8 engines, so we added that $7 oil pressure switch and $10 common relay and we were off to the races without charge imbalance between batteries,
And with the $10 second starter relay, DOUBLED the available current to the starter motor,
(Not just tried to force some extra current from second battery through already overloaded factory starter relay.)

----------------------------

Now, some folks can yap & yap & yap away, but you can't get around or beat basic electrical principles.

The purpose of my 'Books' on this stuff is to condense the relevant facts, like proper negative cable placement for 'In bank' batteries and staying away from relays between batteries,
By no means the entire story, but condensed/compressed into a useable and understandable form for forum users...
Education, the short version, is never a bad thing,
And my stuff doesn't violate any of the basic electrical principles that cause batteries to die much sooner than they should, or cause 'Issues' when you need the systems most...

It's called EXPERIENCE, when you have had these issues, you tend to avoid costly problems or walking home long distances!

----

If you think the 'Between Battery' isolator is good for your rig, then by all means use it.

If you think adding an oil pressure switch (if you don't already have one) a starter relay, and a common automotive lighting relay is too 'Difficult',
Then by all means use a 'Between Battery' isolator/combiner.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 10:29 AM   #84
Matt1981CJ7
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By my count, Aaron made 13 false comments and 3 true/or partially true comments in his evaluation of the Hellroaring product. See above.

That's not a very good track record, IMO. I'd take his advice for what it's worth.

Tommy, I'd ask Mike your question, since you obviously aren't going to get an unbiased answer, here.

Matt
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Unread 12-02-2013, 10:59 AM   #85
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I can see were JH would surmise how the Hellroaring would work based upon their 'simplified schematic'.
Not very informative to the learned user. I was thinking of pointing it out myself.

Why not have Hellroaring send a complete schematic, listing parts used so everyone can make an informed decision.

I don't think its really fair to print a poor schematic and then point out every mistake a person makes from a 'simplified' schematic.

I would like to find out what P or N (Enhanced ?) channel MOSFET's they are using anyway.

Vishay makes some great stuff in that line. http://www.digikey.com/us/en/ph/Vishay/MOSFET.html
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Unread 12-02-2013, 11:45 AM   #86
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John,

Most of Aaron's "mistakes" are answered on the Hellroaring website.

That's why I encouraged him to read the website, instead of taking a simplified schematic and making assumptions.

Instead, he stuck with the same dated arguments that he's been preaching for years, but they don't apply to HL product. I think Mike did a good job of educating him, if he chooses to learn.

Matt
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Unread 12-02-2013, 11:47 AM   #87
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Sorry for the confusion, let me ask it in a simpler way, can I connect the two outputs of the "charge isolator" together without incidence?

^^start here please^^

I do not have a Hellroaring I/C, I would have one if I had done my research more thoroughly, but this is what I have. I do need a charge isolator due to different age of batteries.

Matt, I would have better luck speaking to Mike! NOCO is a huge company that parrots the same thing at every corner. I may give it a whirl.

Thanks!
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Unread 12-02-2013, 11:54 AM   #88
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Tommy,

As you know, Mike is very knowledgable and very willing to help.

I'm sure he'll answer your question, even though you aren't using his product.

If you do contact him, please post what he tells you, for the sake of keeping this thread somewhat informative. Thanks!

Matt
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Unread 12-02-2013, 12:27 PM   #89
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Mike Hines, Hellroaring Technologies and I had a VERY nice discussion about his products,
What they will do, what the won't do, ect.
Talked about an hour on the phone, being a inactive Marine himself, I found him direct, knowledgeable, and just an all around nice guy.
Very Pleasant and open for questions and discussions.

He confirms some of what Matt posted.

The products are made from US components,

The products are solid state, and the simplified image shown on their web site is misleading, there aren't actually any mechanical contacts. This was intentionally done to prevent proprietary solid state switching systems.

Protecting your intellectual products, and your actual suppliers is paramount in a world where 'China' is knocking off anything and everything...
Being in the same boat at my business, I understand that entirely since we've had the same issues.

The PRIMARY business is solid state switching systems, and as I understand it, the vehicle dual battery market is a by-product of that primary business for them.

----------------------------------------

Now, some FACTS directly from the designer/builder...

Mike/Hellroaring says the isolator in questions allows for charging of both batteries 'In Bank' (en banc) as I often recommend.
The charing pathways are open when the alternator is working, and closed when the alternator isn't working.
This is a solid state electrical version of what I do with an oil pressure switch.

The solid state version has no mechanical parts. This is good and bad, depending on your view point.
Solid state sensing of higher than battery voltage allows for automatic charging of both batteries,
It's also built into a sealed unit that you can't service if something fails.

You CAN change an oil pressure switch, and you cand find that switch at any discount parts store.

If you don't want the mechanical, SERVICEABLE component in your system, then buy his isolator, but be aware you won't replace that failed part off the shelf, it's proprietary and combined with the rest of the isolator system.

Mike/Hellroaring says that the COMBINER for batteries is LIMITED.
Batteries are combined during normal usage, when the alternator is working to produce higher than battery voltage.

HE goes on to say that with 'Normal' starting applications, the second battery is ISOLATED, and DOES NOT add to the current reaching the starter motor if you don't hit the 'Self Rescue' or 'Manual Combiner' switch mounted on the dash.

This means the second battery does NOTHING to help you out with Hard/Cold starts... UNLESS you manually flip the self rescue/combiner switch,
(And you have to remember to turn 'Self Rescue' off when started or the batteries will be combined full time)

Mike states that anytime the vehicle Electrical Loading exceeds alternator output (line voltage drops), the second battery is isolated and DOES NOT help with the excessive load you are trying to operate.
You CAN flip the combiner switch and have second battery help with the extra load, but again, you will have to remember to turn that switch off when you are done or the batteries won't be isolated.

Mike recommends the positive cable from secondary or 'Isolated' battery be run to the starter relay instead of the primary battery.
This is something I've said all along,
Trying to pump your 'Reserve' or 'Back Up' battery into the dead battery,
Then pump all that down to the starter relay doesn't work very well...

Anyone that has put large 'Jumper Cables' on a discharged battery, just to have the starter relay click knows a really discharged battery will suck the current from the 'Jumper Battery' and NOT let it pass directly to the starter.
You have to wait for the primary battery to charge up some, then the secondary or jumper battery will help 'Boost' the primary battery...

By supplying secondary battery to starter in a more direct manner, you overcome some of the parasitic drain from the discharged battery and can get the vehicle started most times.

-----

Now, if you do like I recommend, and add a SECOND starter relay, you aren't trying to pump TWO batteries through a SINGLE restrictive relay, and have an even more direct path to the starter,
And you have starter cable, relay redundancy in the field.

------

Mike didn't seem to be concerned with things like charge/load 'Leveling' so the batteries both stayed alive longer,
His recommendation was to run the system until one battery failed, move the 'Good' battery into the 'Primary' position, and buy another battery for the 'Isolated' or Secondary position.

Personally, I get tired of buying EXPENSIVE BATTERIES! So I make sure my battery systems keep my batteries alive as a SET for as long as possible.

-----------

Now, Mike states the solid state units he uses will only pass about 150-175 total amps for a short period, and will sustain about 75-95 amps depending on model you choose.

That is adding an extra 150 amps to your collective 'Battery' current when activated manually by the combiner/self rescue switch, but you are still trying to force that current through a SINGLE starter relay that will only pass about 320 amps if it's a top quality unit, which most of you don't have...

The second starter relay will pass MUCH more current to the starter DIRECTLY in hard starts,
And if you have a winch, it will do the same for the winch when a relay is added for that winch from the second battery, depending on your wiring...

Since starters and winces can exceed 700 amps for short periods, it would be beneficial to have the second battery connected through a solenoid/starter type relay than the battery combiner.

Lower amperage draw levels, like Jeeps starting in warm weather,
Smaller winches, ect.
The battery combiner will work fine for that since the ELECTRICAL LOAD isn't as great with warm weather starts and smaller winches.

----------------------------------------

There is a reason I list about a dozen or more potential ways to wire dual battery set-ups...

If you have an 'Average' commuter, part time mild 4x4 and aren't going to be pulling any long, hard cable in the near future,
Then you might consider the above mentioned product from 'Hellroaring'.
It sounds like a quality made product with a lot of thought put into it, and like I said, if you are 'Average' it should work for your application.

Since this is primarily a 4x4 forum, and some of us get a little more 'Extreme' than 'Average',
You might consider something that makes a little more sense for larger winches, extreme cold weather starts, ect.

Like I've been saying all along, it's APPLICATION, APPLICATION, APPLICATION!

If you have HARD, or COLD STARTS, you might want to do like I recommend, and run the second battery heavy cable to a second HIGH QUALITY starter relay so you pass an extra 320 or so amps directly to the starter motor.

If you have HEAVY WINCHING APPLICATIONS, you might consider a direct wired winch to the second battery, instead of only getting the combiner to pass an extra 150-175 amps...

APPLICATION has, and always will be the determining factor in what you NEED.
What you 'Want' is something entirely different...

-------------------

We also discussed cables, terminal ends, contact patch area, ect. and we both have the same viewpoints about that stuff.
Large, CLEAN contact patches will conduct a lot more amperage for starters, winches, ect. than smaller, corroded terminal ends ever will.

Larger cables for larger loads, smaller cables for smaller loads, makes good electrical basic sense...
Cables should EXCEED maximum expected draw, for those times when you exceed what you 'Expected'.

COPPER OR BRASS TERMINALS IN THINGS LIKE STARTER RELAYS WILL ALWAYS PASS MORE CURRENT THAN RUSTED STEEL...
Again, common electrical sense.

That's why I have the articles on building cables CORRECTLY, what cable to use, what insulation is best, what terminals work better, how to increase contact patch, getting good relays/solenoids in the first place, ect.,
(which a bunch of folks didn't bother to read, but still make comments about things...)

Anyway, I've wasted about enough time,
Time to get ready for my real job, working out of town again this week with little or no internet access...
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Unread 12-02-2013, 12:39 PM   #90
JeepHammer
Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 10,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
By my count, Aaron made 13 false comments and 3 true/or partially true comments in his evaluation of the Hellroaring product. See above.

That's not a very good track record, IMO. I'd take his advice for what it's worth.

Tommy, I'd ask Mike your question, since you obviously aren't going to get an unbiased answer, here.

Matt
Like I said, while you were being snarky, backbiting and generally a pain in the a$$, I had about an hour long conversation with Mike...

Turns out, you didn't ask the questions I asked you.
Since you took another hour out of my life tying to set the record straight, I'm not going to pull any punches...

You are a 'Fan Boy',
This worked ONCE for you, and since it's the ONLY electrical project you ever had work out, you can't wait to profess yourself an 'Expert' in the field of dual battery conversions/upgrades...

Now, when you have a FEW HUNDRED under your belt, and have seen the pitfalls of most of the systems on the market, and the things that go wrong with bad wiring over the next 40 years or so, I'll be glad to have a reasonable conversation with you. Until then, consider just saying it worked for YOU,
And leave the electrical principals/wiring upgrades to the guys that know what they are talking about.

I've got more time considering what wire gauge to use on these harnesses and upgrades while sitting on the toilet than you have doing ALL your Jeep.

I found Mike Hines, an inactive Marine, to be more than polite, knew his business forward and backward, and he admitted the graphic on the web site YOU REFERRED ME TO WAS INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING.
It's 'Misleading' to protect his designs, and since I have to do the same thing, I don't blame him for a second.

Some Jack-hole will come along, scoop up his proprietary designs, send them to China, and they will cut his throat by making substandard versions of his stuff if he posts the real designs and component information.

That makes YOU a jack-hole for not knowing the diagram was intentionally misleading since you claim to know 'Mike' so well...

You want to call people LIARS, you better be able to back it up, and in this case, you really sat on the post pal...
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