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Unread 11-12-2013, 07:33 PM   #61
WSS
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Diodes have a draw back, they don't pass full voltage. This means your batteries are not fully charged. The higher the quality the diode (isolator), the less the loss. most are around 1/2 a volt, too much really. My NOCO is "supposed" to be solid state and loss-less but it sure looks like the diode type. We'll see.

I have a 200amp cont. duty solenoid that I will be able to cut the second batt in/out via my dash panel (already wired and ready), this would be similar to the manual marine switch.

frhrwa, Deer Park, is that close to Springdale? I spent a few summers there as a kid on Shimican creek (sp?)

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Unread 11-12-2013, 07:43 PM   #62
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Matt....as stated before good write-up and clean install as always.
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Unread 11-13-2013, 05:23 AM   #63
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Hey Buckeye,

Thanks for the kind words.

Elbert, Colorado? Really? Why haven't we run into each other? I thought I knew everyone in this neck of the woods.

Matt
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Unread 11-13-2013, 09:13 AM   #64
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Now that I've been running my dual-batteries for a few weeks, I wanted to mention one of the benefits I've realized.

My 360 has always suffered from a brief moment of valve-train clatter when I first start her up on a cold morning.

Now, if I use both batteries in those situations, the starter spins the engine much, MUCH faster, allowing the pump to circulate oil almost instantly, thereby reducing the clatter to virtually non-existent.

Matt
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Unread 11-13-2013, 01:56 PM   #65
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Just posted the dxf's of the battery tray in the file sharing section

Post #30

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/cj...l#post17676969
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Unread 11-25-2013, 09:10 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Hey gentlemen,

I've decided to upgrade to dual batteries.

As usual, I've done quite a bit of research, but I'm still confused over which system is better.

The Hammer advocates constant duty solenoids, but his arguments seem a little dated. I've had another member recommend using the Hellroaring Isolator and remote switch, stating the install is much easier and the newer technology makes it a superior system.

I don't really understand the difference and I was hoping a few of you could explain it in layman's terms.

Thanks

Matt
Not to crap on your enthusiasm for 'Helroaring' products, or to crap on their products, but this seems me it's the same old isolator that's been around for years...




What I see is...

Two solid state diodes feeding battery two while charging.
No specifications on forward voltage drop, but battery two is alrady on the 'Hind Teet' as it were, since charging supply is taken from battery one terminal.

That means anything battery one DOESN'T CONSUME Gets to the charge isolator diodes, then the forward voltage drop gets taken out,
Then battery two finally gets what's left....

Now, with low forward voltage drop diodes, they might not take a large bite out of the charge current, which is going to be lower than battery one no matter what you do,
But it's worth mentioning.

-----------------

What I see next is,
NO CHARGE REGULATION.
This is not a regulator/isolator, it's just an isolator.
That means the same size, age, type of batteries or you will cook one or both batteries.
You still need a charging regulator/isolator if you have two different types of batteries... Or ages, or sizes...

------------------

The third thing I see is ELECTRO-MECHANICAL SWITCHING to combine the batteries!
A 'Relay' you can't service! If it goes, contacts carbon over, contacts burn up, activation coil fails, whatever, you are stuck with a NON-WORKING UNIT YOU CAN'T SERVICE.

Apparently, the contacts are not rated for full battery load rating, because they are using TWO sets of contacts! This means SOME redundancy with LOW AMPERAGE applications, like 'Boosting' a partly drained primary battery, but you sure can't throw a winch or starter motor at one set of contacts and expect them to live...

-------------------

Those breaker point contacts also completely blow the 'Solid State' thing out of the water, no matter what advertising says.
Breaker points/Relay contacts are MOVING PARTS, not solid state, so again, you have failed MOVING parts you can't service.
Once it's toast, you have to wait on warranty, or buy a new one and wait for it to come in....

In this case, I would carry a 'Spare' since you can't use common relays to fix the issues this thing is eventually going to have...

--------------------

The THIRD THING I SEE IS WHAT I'VE WARNED ABOUT TIME AND TIME AGAIN,
They connect your RESERVE BATTERY DIRECTLY TO THE DEAD BATTERY!

There goes around 200 Amps trying to power it's way through that dead primary battery (Battery #1 in diagram) before you can even hope get current to the starter relay....

Then you have to try and turn the engine on a SINGLE starter (factory) relay,
AND you have to try and overcome the drain of a dead battery while you are trying to turn that starter...

Warned about relays BETWEEN BATTERIES, when the relay is much better served delivering FULL BATTERY CURRENT TO THE STARTER/IGNITION instead of a dead shot the dead battery has become.

Just the way it's wired is going to cause a battery charge imbalance,
The way it discharges causes a battery charge imbalance,
It's very bad at delivering current to the starter in a 'Self Jump' situation,
It's probably not rated for full winch pulls, but then again it doesn't have to be if both batteries are charged and pulling, it only has to deliver HALF the winch demand,
But you are STILL trying to force BOTH batteries through the connection at the Primary Battery...

Things like this are EXACTLY why I designed the wiring and built the system I have,
Charge balance issues,
Discharge balance issues,
Delivery issues...

Like I said, I've tried these before, they didn't work in heavy use situations, I cooked them right and left...
That's why I do what I do, MUCH more even charging, discharging and more power to the accessories I'm powering...

And everything I do you can pick up on Sunday afternoon at the local 'Auto-Jerks' sores in the middle of nowhere...
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Unread 11-25-2013, 01:47 PM   #67
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Aaron,

I see you posted the same wordy response on at least three different battery threads.

I think you should do a little more reading about the Hellroaring product, since some of your comments directly conflict their information.

Now, I know this post will probably prompt another 2-page response from you, but I think it's important for readers to get the true story, not just one man's lengthy ramblings.

Matt
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Unread 11-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #68
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Matt, your install is clean as anyone could ask for.
Your abilities are very good.

This is just electrical principal... Nothing personal.
You have recommended this thing on SEVERAL threads, and if it's working out for you, that's great! You found EXACTLY what you wanted/needed for your application.
I understand the enthusiasm for the product that filled your EXACT requirements.

I have issue with what the claims were, Charge Regulation.
There isn't any, it's a simple charge isolator, and they have been around for years and years.
Probably since the advent of semiconductors since there were already multi battery systems then.

The diagram doesn't show ANY TYPE OF REGULATION, just a one way feed to 'Battery #2'.
Since the diodes are ONE WAY, the alternator regulator can't 'Sense' the charge state of battery #2.
Battery #2 gets what battery #1 is demanding... Plain and simple.

The diagram is indicating there are TWO MECHANICAL RELAYS that bypass the diodes, and supply battery power from #2 to #1.
This is a problem for ME, and for most heavy equipment that use 2 battery systems...

AND, Contrary to all claims on the forum it's 'Solid State', again, CLEARLY that isn't the fact.
There are TWO mechanical relays that supply battery #2 current to battery #1 in the diagram.
It's also a fact of life relays eventually burn out... You can't change the relays in this unit that I can tell.
No spare parts listings, they claim it's a sealed unit.

Don't kill the messenger, I'm not making this stuff up, it's right there in their advertisement and specifications/instructions.

Ever consider a SECOND starter relay with cable to second battery for a back up in case this thing quits?
Or just going to connect battery two directly to battery one until you get home and get a new one?
Either way will work, and you won't be stranded... Just not 'Automatic' or 'Isolated' anymore.
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Unread 11-25-2013, 04:42 PM   #69
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Aaron

I've made no claims of "charge regulation", nor have I validated their "solid-state" advertising.

Look, I don't have the time, nor inclination, to debate you on this. Mostly because you lack the ability of concise, on-point, communication.

I'm not a self-proclaimed "genius", nor do I claim to be an electrical wiz. Actually, quite to the contrary. Electric issues make my head hurt.

My goals for the dual-battery upgrade were 1) functionality , 2) ease of operation, and 3) ease of installation and maintenance. A quality isolator/combiner setup met my objectives better than any of "your" designs. And, I think they would for the vast majority of forum members who have the same goals.

Thanks for your contributions to my install thread.

Matt
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Unread 11-25-2013, 05:17 PM   #70
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As for me I just followed the directions on my Stinger SGP and it's been working. I'm not one that's given to soapboxing despite me being long winded
Although I do tire of the occasional drama I see here and as far as I'm concerned, attempting to be domineering over those that many of us know as an excellent resource is like comaparing penis sizes, and just about as mature.
~stirring the cauldron~
sorry
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Unread 11-25-2013, 05:40 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSS View Post
Just posted the dxf's of the battery tray in the file sharing section

Post #30

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/cj...l#post17676969
'BB' had this oddly configured battery tray when I got 'er, I made it work for dual batteries but has anyone else even seen one like this?



The after portion mounts up conventionally and the fore section mounts to the inner fender skirt. It's been right stable but in all the photos I've seen over the years I've never seen another like this.
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Unread 11-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSS View Post
Diodes have a draw back, they don't pass full voltage. This means your batteries are not fully charged. The higher the quality the diode (isolator), the less the loss. most are around 1/2 a volt, too much really. My NOCO is "supposed" to be solid state and loss-less but it sure looks like the diode type. We'll see.

I have a 200amp cont. duty solenoid that I will be able to cut the second batt in/out via my dash panel (already wired and ready), this would be similar to the manual marine switch.

frhrwa, Deer Park, is that close to Springdale? I spent a few summers there as a kid on Shimican creek (sp?)
That's one of my points, which like most electrical facts, seems to escape most people...
It's pretty deep for the average "I want Off Road lights" types, and I can't fault them for that...

200 Amp Continuous duty is HUSKY!
Should be able to run everything but a welder or large inverter off that!
Doesn't tear the old factory wiring a new one trying to run devices either. Good way to do things!

Sounds like a big truck accessory relay, cheap, effective, sealed up, long lived, virtually vibration/shock proof, perfect for what we are doing.
Takes the 'Grunt' off the factory wiring!
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Unread 11-25-2013, 06:01 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbogus View Post
'BB' had this oddly configured battery tray when I got 'er, I made it work for dual batteries but has anyone else even seen one like this?



The after portion mounts up conventionally and the fore section mounts to the inner fender skirt. It's been right stable but in all the photos I've seen over the years I've never seen another like this.
Looks like a very well thought out home made job to me.
Looks like someone added smaller automotive relays to the front of the tray.

Always good to have a spot to mount relays! Taking the load off the factory wiring harness makes for brighter lights, more accessory power, and fewer blown fuses!

Since you are running TWO BATTERIES, that little relay on the front will work fine for charging both batteries, while isolating one when the engine isn't running.

If you have an I-6 engine, or electric choke, you already have the oil pressure switch installed that could power up one of those relays you already have.
Electric chokes are activated by oil pressure in most I-6 Jeeps, so it's all there for you already.

A second starter relay, and you can have a completely redundant, completely isolated rescue battery arrangement that will charge, discharge the dual batteries at the same rates, (so the batteries live longer).
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Unread 11-25-2013, 06:16 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Aaron

I've made no claims of "charge regulation", nor have I validated their "solid-state" advertising.
So they are using Triacs instead of the relays shown in their diagram?
How did you 'VERIFY' the solid state claim? I'd like to see that information also, I don't want to bash a product unfairly...

Quote:
Look, I don't have the time, nor inclination, to debate you on this. Mostly because you lack the ability of concise, on-point, communication.
That's exactly what I'm trying to do. You recommend this thing on every electrical thread, and you told me to go have a look at your install thread, and 'Hellroaring' web site, so I did,
Now you are upset I posted what I found? How does that work?

Quote:
I'm not a self-proclaimed "genius", nor do I claim to be an electrical wiz. Actually, quite to the contrary. Electric issues make my head hurt.
Well, I'm 'Educated' in electrical theory, electrical application, and I'm fairly proficient at it. Better be, I did it for a living for about 10 years and I'm still doing a good bit of it at my current job.
Mostly fuel injection now, but the electrical basics are still the same, just a lot tighter tolerances and more 'Issues'...

That's why I asked SPECIFIC QUESTIONS about your isolator since you were posting it on all dual battery and electrical threads.
You told me to 'Look It Up' so I did...
Then you get upset with the review after telling me to look into it myself...

Quote:
My goals for the dual-battery upgrade were
1) functionality ,
2) ease of operation, and
3) ease of installation and maintenance.
I give 'Functionality' about a 'C', same stuff that has been out there for years.

Operation is the same as everyone elses, a 'Self Rescue' switch on the dash.
Again, about a 'C'.

Ease Of Installation.
Same amount of electrical connections, same wires to run, less functionality than a dual (heavy/light) relay system.
Again, about a 'C' at best.

Quote:
A quality isolator/combiner setup met my objectives better than any of "your" designs. And, I think they would for the vast majority of forum members who have the same goals.
OK, if it is what you want, then I say good luck with it, Clean install!

Quote:
Thanks for your contributions to my install thread.

Matt
You are welcome. Glad to help out other users when I can, this is just something that I can help with...

My install is 'EXTREME', it's what I needed.
I have diagrams and parts lists for everything from plain parallel wired dual battery installs to the extreme, and everything in between.

I tried to bypass some of the pitfalls of the combiner/isolator units that have plagued me, and the market for years,
But all of those failures led me to understand what I needed and how to get it, so it wasn't a total loss.

Happy Trails!
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Unread 11-25-2013, 06:19 PM   #75
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Hey WSS,

Aren't you going with an isolator/combiner?

I just don't want the info in this thread to get convoluted, since it's headed that way quickly and unfortunately.

Matt
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