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Unread 06-17-2013, 12:32 AM   #46
frhrwa
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I'm at a loss on this statement that using a solenoid gives you isolation for two battery install? Isolation of your batteries when using 2 or more of the same voltage batteries is done with "diodes (rectifiers)".. high amperage diodes in the line do all the isolation.. this is in case one battery were to lose a cell, or one battery has a different charge rate.. or.. your using one battery as you start/run and the other is your accessory battery.. then you can up that two dual for running your winch, by placing a battery switch in line, like they use in boats.. off, 1, 2, 1 & 2, 1-2.. a solenoid is an electrical switch basically.. when energized, the contacts are made and current flows in both directions, unlike with a diode/rectifier which controls the flow .. eg; 12vdc from your alternator is fed out to the dual rectifier, where the positive voltage flows through to the battery, and with that diode, the positive from "that' battery cannot feed back across to the other battery.. protecting both directions.. I use the 12vdc high amperage solenoids like the ones on 18wheeler rigs to control my lights.. high, low, fog, and driving..

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Unread 06-23-2013, 09:44 PM   #47
Carlos14
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Bookmarked for reference. Good information.
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Unread 11-17-2013, 11:11 AM   #48
shooters_7
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Great info for my winch install!
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Unread 11-24-2013, 09:33 AM   #49
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frhrwa View Post
I'm at a loss on this statement that using a solenoid gives you isolation for two battery install? Isolation of your batteries when using 2 or more of the same voltage batteries is done with "diodes (rectifiers)".. high amperage diodes in the line do all the isolation.. this is in case one battery were to lose a cell, or one battery has a different charge rate.. or.. your using one battery as you start/run and the other is your accessory battery.. then you can up that two dual for running your winch, by placing a battery switch in line, like they use in boats.. off, 1, 2, 1 & 2, 1-2.. a solenoid is an electrical switch basically.. when energized, the contacts are made and current flows in both directions, unlike with a diode/rectifier which controls the flow .. eg; 12vdc from your alternator is fed out to the dual rectifier, where the positive voltage flows through to the battery, and with that diode, the positive from "that' battery cannot feed back across to the other battery.. protecting both directions.. I use the 12vdc high amperage solenoids like the ones on 18wheeler rigs to control my lights.. high, low, fog, and driving..
Not EXACTLY sure what you are getting at here, but...
A starter relay is CHEAP, Available Everywhere, and it's something that Jeepers are used to dealing with.

Starter Relays are high amperage, not little contacts like smaller power distribution relays.
They are EASY to test and don't require complicated testing procedures or tools to test.

"Continuous Duty" relays are fine for smaller loads, but they aren't designed with the big contacts like starting relays are.
When you are talking about winching or starting the larger contacts, preferably the brass or copper terminal types, allow much larger amperage currents to flow through the relays to the high load devices.

Any diode will have a 'Forward Voltage Drop'. Period.
No matter what you start out with at the battery, by the time it reaches the accessory, that voltage will be reduced.
And large capacity diodes are horribly expensive.
Cost, voltage drop and availability are the reasons I don't use large diodes in my systems.

Try finding an open welder repair shop at 4:00 AM on Sunday morning of a holiday weekend, when you are 70 miles from the nearest town and you will get why I use starter relays instead of high amp diodes...

With multi starter relay system, you can simply JUMP the relay contacts to get starting, charging, ect. until you can get to an open parts store at 8:00 AM on Sunday Morning on a holiday weekend, and for $10 your rig is up and running like it's supposed to...
Or any junkyard/abandoned donor Ford can provide you a starter relay...

As for 'Boat' applications, Again, not common if it fails.
Most of the 'Battery Selector' switches I've seen for boats are VERY SMALL CONTACTS inside, not much amperage flow potential.
Starting outboard engines is MUCH easier than starting a Jeep at -20F or winching yourself out of a mud pit of epic proportions...
The marine battery selectors can be used to control starter relays, usually the case with inboard or diesel equipped boats,
But why not just use the starter relays directly instead of having that MANUAL switch in the middle when you can have it all automatic with the use of a oil pressure switch or key switch?

Just as isolated when key switch is not in the 'Start' position,
Just as connected (more connected when you figure the amperage increase you get with starter relays instead of boat switch),
Just as connected for charging when the oil pressure comes up,
And all automatic, no switch flipping required unless you forget headlights and discharge the primary battery...
In which case you flip one little switch on the dash and start as usual, no big battery selector switch mounted on the dash, no getting under the hood, ect....

It's up to you to decide how 'Big' you want to go, that's why there are several versions.
These are the versions that ELIMINATED the silly crap, small contacts/under current, failed electronics that required me to buy an entirely new 'All In One' unit...
Each piece is EASILY serviceable, Each piece is EASILY tested, each piece is EASILY available at ANY parts store or junk yard/donor vehicle...

And there isn't ONE of the 'All In One' units that allow you to 'Lend Power', Weld, Self Rescue & Self Diagnose/Repair...
Those capabilities are simply not available from ONE UNIT anywhere...

If you will allow a personal anecdotal story...
And I know that after the fact I can't prove this except for pictures/video shot while doing it...
So it's an 'Internet Story' and should be taken as such...

I purchased some 'River Bottom Land' about 17 miles from the nearest town,
Without consulting the power company, water company, telephone company.
Power wanted $118,000 to run poles/wire to the land, Power wanted another $15,000 to plunk down a transformer right directly where I wanted to build my house.
That's $138,000 for electricity from the 'Grid' which amounted to about double what I paid for the land, and was an instant 'Second Mortgage' since they were kind enough to tack it onto my bill, with interest, over the next 20 years or so.

The water company wouldn't let me hook up to the water system even if I would run the 7/8 Mile of lines out to their main.
No discussion, no compromise, no nothing.

I used my little Jeep to power about everything under construction.
Inverters powered the 110 Volt tools,
The on board air compressor powered pneumatic tools,
Winch hoisted up walls and trusses.
Welder provided the metal working I needed.

You can forget about all those 2 cycle made in China powered tools,
You can forget about all those 'Cordless' battery powered tools that are either discharged, or run dry about 1/4 the way through a job and you have to stop to charge again,
You can forget about all those screaming generators running for HOURS while you use the tools they power for 5 minutes of those hours...

A chain saw, a Jeep, and regular corded tools built my shop, my house, my solar power station and now I'm off grid and I haven't paid an electric bill in over 15 years out there.
The only other thing I needed was a gas powered cement mixer when we weren't ordering a full truck of concrete...

This stuff is PROVEN to work fine, deliver high current, work pretty much automatically, and provide EXACTLY what I say it will... Or your money back for the plans...
Information found for free on the internet is worth EXACTLY What you paid for it or your money back...

What I can tell you is, I've done this for a LONG time, this works and works WELL, and it's built from things you can find everywhere and CHEAPLY,
And I include extensive instructions on not only WHAT TO DO, but WHAT NOT TO DO...
Since I've been there and screwed it up I can provide that information also...
Not something you find on a lot of 'Internet Instructions' since a lot of the stuff no one has actually done or worked with long term...

It's your vehicle, do what you want.
If an 'All In One' unit is what you WANT, then acknowledge the WANT and run with it...

If you are looking for something a little less radical, or comprehensive, or just plain don't need increased supply for the winch or what ever, that is 'APPLICATION' based, and run with it.

If you are planning an 'Expedition' type vehicle instead of a Off Road Park vehicle or daily driver, then again, that's 'APPLICATION' based, and run with that...

I turned my Jeep into a pack mule/work horse. More in the lines of modern 'Pioneer' vehicle or 'Expedition' type vehicle than an occasional/weekend off roader, and not everyone needs or wants that...

APPLICATION,
APPLICATION,
APPLICATION!

Decide what you NEED (Application), then decide what you 'WANT' (Subjective rather than Objective) and work towards that...

Happy Trails!
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Unread 11-24-2013, 10:19 AM   #50
frhrwa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Not EXACTLY sure what you are getting at here, but...
A starter relay is CHEAP, Available Everywhere, and it's something that Jeepers are used to dealing with.

Starter Relays are high amperage, not little contacts like smaller power distribution relays.
They are EASY to test and don't require complicated testing procedures or tools to test.

"Continuous Duty" relays are fine for smaller loads, but they aren't designed with the big contacts like starting relays are.
When you are talking about winching or starting the larger contacts, preferably the brass or copper terminal types, allow much larger amperage currents to flow through the relays to the high load devices.

Any diode will have a 'Forward Voltage Drop'. Period.
No matter what you start out with at the battery, by the time it reaches the accessory, that voltage will be reduced.
And large capacity diodes are horribly expensive.
Cost, voltage drop and availability are the reasons I don't use large diodes in my systems.

Try finding an open welder repair shop at 4:00 AM on Sunday morning of a holiday weekend, when you are 70 miles from the nearest town and you will get why I use starter relays instead of high amp diodes...

With multi starter relay system, you can simply JUMP the relay contacts to get starting, charging, ect. until you can get to an open parts store at 8:00 AM on Sunday Morning on a holiday weekend, and for $10 your rig is up and running like it's supposed to...
Or any junkyard/abandoned donor Ford can provide you a starter relay...

As for 'Boat' applications, Again, not common if it fails.
Most of the 'Battery Selector' switches I've seen for boats are VERY SMALL CONTACTS inside, not much amperage flow potential.
Starting outboard engines is MUCH easier than starting a Jeep at -20F or winching yourself out of a mud pit of epic proportions...
The marine battery selectors can be used to control starter relays, usually the case with inboard or diesel equipped boats,
But why not just use the starter relays directly instead of having that MANUAL switch in the middle when you can have it all automatic with the use of a oil pressure switch or key switch?

Just as isolated when key switch is not in the 'Start' position,
Just as connected (more connected when you figure the amperage increase you get with starter relays instead of boat switch),
Just as connected for charging when the oil pressure comes up,
And all automatic, no switch flipping required unless you forget headlights and discharge the primary battery...
In which case you flip one little switch on the dash and start as usual, no big battery selector switch mounted on the dash, no getting under the hood, ect....

It's up to you to decide how 'Big' you want to go, that's why there are several versions.
These are the versions that ELIMINATED the silly crap, small contacts/under current, failed electronics that required me to buy an entirely new 'All In One' unit...
Each piece is EASILY serviceable, Each piece is EASILY tested, each piece is EASILY available at ANY parts store or junk yard/donor vehicle...

And there isn't ONE of the 'All In One' units that allow you to 'Lend Power', Weld, Self Rescue & Self Diagnose/Repair...
Those capabilities are simply not available from ONE UNIT anywhere...

If you will allow a personal anecdotal story...
And I know that after the fact I can't prove this except for pictures/video shot while doing it...
So it's an 'Internet Story' and should be taken as such...

I purchased some 'River Bottom Land' about 17 miles from the nearest town,
Without consulting the power company, water company, telephone company.
Power wanted $118,000 to run poles/wire to the land, Power wanted another $15,000 to plunk down a transformer right directly where I wanted to build my house.
That's $138,000 for electricity from the 'Grid' which amounted to about double what I paid for the land, and was an instant 'Second Mortgage' since they were kind enough to tack it onto my bill, with interest, over the next 20 years or so.

The water company wouldn't let me hook up to the water system even if I would run the 7/8 Mile of lines out to their main.
No discussion, no compromise, no nothing.

I used my little Jeep to power about everything under construction.
Inverters powered the 110 Volt tools,
The on board air compressor powered pneumatic tools,
Winch hoisted up walls and trusses.
Welder provided the metal working I needed.

You can forget about all those 2 cycle made in China powered tools,
You can forget about all those 'Cordless' battery powered tools that are either discharged, or run dry about 1/4 the way through a job and you have to stop to charge again,
You can forget about all those screaming generators running for HOURS while you use the tools they power for 5 minutes of those hours...

A chain saw, a Jeep, and regular corded tools built my shop, my house, my solar power station and now I'm off grid and I haven't paid an electric bill in over 15 years out there.
The only other thing I needed was a gas powered cement mixer when we weren't ordering a full truck of concrete...

This stuff is PROVEN to work fine, deliver high current, work pretty much automatically, and provide EXACTLY what I say it will... Or your money back for the plans...
Information found for free on the internet is worth EXACTLY What you paid for it or your money back...

What I can tell you is, I've done this for a LONG time, this works and works WELL, and it's built from things you can find everywhere and CHEAPLY,
And I include extensive instructions on not only WHAT TO DO, but WHAT NOT TO DO...
Since I've been there and screwed it up I can provide that information also...
Not something you find on a lot of 'Internet Instructions' since a lot of the stuff no one has actually done or worked with long term...

It's your vehicle, do what you want.
If an 'All In One' unit is what you WANT, then acknowledge the WANT and run with it...

If you are looking for something a little less radical, or comprehensive, or just plain don't need increased supply for the winch or what ever, that is 'APPLICATION' based, and run with it.

If you are planning an 'Expedition' type vehicle instead of a Off Road Park vehicle or daily driver, then again, that's 'APPLICATION' based, and run with that...

I turned my Jeep into a pack mule/work horse. More in the lines of modern 'Pioneer' vehicle or 'Expedition' type vehicle than an occasional/weekend off roader, and not everyone needs or wants that...

APPLICATION,
APPLICATION,
APPLICATION!

Decide what you NEED (Application), then decide what you 'WANT' (Subjective rather than Objective) and work towards that...

Happy Trails!
the boat switch is ONLY to switch which battery you use for starting.. the diodes have to be of high enough current (amperage) rating to handle the "charge".. you are using the diodes to isolate each battery for charging purposes only.. your accessories, winch, lights, starter and so forth are individually connected to the battery of choice, not to the diodes.. your alternator is connected to the diode rectifier in order to furnish charging voltage, now power your accessories..
__________________
I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like the passengers in his JEEP!...
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Unread 11-24-2013, 03:08 PM   #51
JeepHammer
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Posts: 10,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by frhrwa View Post
the boat switch is ONLY to switch which battery you use for starting..
Why not use a second starter relay for FULL CURRENT PASSAGE for $10 instead of a low amperage boat switch, or a boat switch connected to high amperage relays?

Not only do I get full current, but I get AUTOMATIC switching, no flipping a manual switch to select which or both batteries I'm going to use?

No proprietary boat switch I can't find on Sunday at 'Discount Auto' store in the middle of nowhere.
I tried the battery selector switches in my boats, they suck. Not enough amperage for serious engines, manual operation no one remember to do so both batteries die, and they are expensive for as cheaply built as they are.

Quote:
the diodes have to be of high enough current (amperage) rating to handle the "charge"..
you are using the diodes to isolate each battery for charging purposes only..
Now, why would I do that when a relay doesn't have a forward drop in voltage and a common lighting relay works fine and is available everywhere?

AND, what do you do if it's the SECONDARY BATTERY that decides to go belly up?
The diode will allow shorted plates to drain BOTH batteries...
Diodes are NOT disconnects, they are one way gate valves for electricity...
If you have charge coming from primary to secondary, and SECONDARY has the problem, you are screwed again.
With mechanical disconnect, that can't happen, the relay would have to weld shut for that at the same time you had a secondary battery problem. Probability LOW of that happening...

Remember what happens to your battery when a diode pops in the alternator? Drains you battery and heats up the alternator.
Same with a shorted plate set in that secondary battery and a diode will let it consume the primary battery in the process... Only ONE failure point for it to kill both batteries, while my way TWO things have to go wrong for both batteries to fail you...
You would have to weld shut the charging relay, which almost never happens,
AND,
You would have to leave something turned on at the same time, or have a battery go bad at the same time.
REDUNDANCY, I believe in it because if it can happen, it will happen to ME!
(Mr. Murphy rides in my passenger seat at all times! )

Quote:
your accessories, winch, lights, starter and so forth are individually connected to the battery of choice, not to the diodes.. your alternator is connected to the diode rectifier in order to furnish charging voltage, now power your accessories..
Again, why a diode when MECHANICAL switching through relay works automatically, is available everywhere, is cheap and has no forward voltage drop issues that would keep one battery about a volt down from the other?
Again, REDUNDANCY against having TWO things go wrong at once, instead of just ONE thing happening to leave you stranded?

DIRECT CONNECTION, via a COMMON RELAY, through the oil pressure switch most of the I-6 guys or electric choke guys already have is simple, reliable, works automatically, has no forward voltage drop and isn't an issue for YEARS on my vehicles, or for the guys that have done this very upgrade...

----------------

Now, if you were dopy or gullible enough to use two different kinds of batteries,
IE: The previously recommended 'Deep Cycle' battery next to a 'Starting' battery, then you WOULD MOST CERTAINLY NEED A CHARGE CONTROLLER.
Connecting those batteries directly together would be a wallet draining proposition at best... Maybe a fire or corrosive electrolyte all over everything at worst...

*IF*...
I were wiring a boat that had a starting battery AND Deep Cycle Batteries, I might consider a manual battery switch, and I would certainly have a charge isolator for the two different types of batteries.

I'm running a JEEP, Common heavy starting batteries (Marine Starting Batteries actually, since they recover a little better and have the extra set of terminals on top... NOT DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES, Marine Starting Batteries...)

They are the same age, size, type, so they require the same charging rates.
They are seen by the alternator as one big battery instead of two smaller ones with my system...

No need for a charge isolator, so I'm interested in NOT restricting the current flow to the starter, so no interconnect from one battery to the other...
They BOTH FEED DIRECTLY TO THE STARTER WHEN ON THE KEY,
THEY BOTH DIRECTLY FEED THE WINCH WHEN THERE IS DEMAND.

No bleeding one battery into another, then trying to force that current though small gauge wires, diodes, ect.

LARGE cables, Large contact patches, LARGE capacity starting relays, to the LARGE DRAIN devices,
The rest of the system runs normally. I don't have big stereo, electric defroster (although I wish I had one this morning!), No electric seats, windows, ect. so the flimsy factory wiring works for most things...

Winch cables are HUGE, but jump starting, starter cables, ect. are reasonable size since I know exactly what those drains are going to load the system for.
I have an 8,000 pound winch, a 10,000 pound and a 17,000 pound winch, and I will switch them if I think I need more for what I'm doing...
Cables sized to feed the largest one, so the smaller ones are not an issue...

---------------

I think you might be making this harder than it needs to be...

1. Second battery, second starter relay that feeds starter & ignition directly.
Nothing more is the basic system.

2. Since second battery is isolated once the starter relay is no longer activated, you need some way to recharge the secondary battery.

3. Most of you already have an oil pressure switch on the engine.
All I-6 engines with electric choke and manifold heater had them,
Every V-8 with electric choke had them.

If you don't have one, they are $7, get one and a 'T' for the oil pressure sender or idiot light.

4. Oil pressure increases when engine starts, closes oil pressure switch.
You *CAN* wire directly to that oil pressure switch and NOT have the second relay in the system...

Or,
You can avoid issues trying to run up to 40 amps @ 13 to 14 volts of charging system through an oil pressure switch and use a relay.

5. Oil pressure switch activates a 70 amp lighting relay ($10 at any auto parts store),
And that relay connects both batteries to the charging system.

6. Open a beer, you are done.

OR,
Spend 30 more minutes and add a 'Self Rescue' switch that draws from the secondary battery, feeds ignition switch so you can use secondary battery to start the vehicle with primary battery drained or even missing!

7. Then open that beer because you deserve it for going the extra mile and installing 'Self Rescue' feature.

You have a starter relay, a lighting relay, and maybe an oil pressure switch in the system, all common off the shelf at any parts store,
No waiting for 'Replacements' or 'Warranty' if something quits,
And you have a COMPLETELY isolated secondary battery,
Along with completely REDUNDANT battery/starter solenoid that is automatic,
You have 'Self Rescue',
And the entire thing cost you a battery, cables, starter relay, lighting relay and maybe a dash switch and/or oil pressure switch.

Simple, elegant, automatic, and nearly bullet proof....
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Unread 11-24-2013, 03:34 PM   #52
frhrwa
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---Quote---
the diodes have to be of high enough current (amperage) rating to handle the "charge"..
you are using the diodes to isolate each battery for charging purposes only..
---End Quote---
Now, why would I do that when a relay doesn't have a forward drop in voltage and a common lighting relay works fine and is available everywhere?


lets address this DIODE problem you seem to have... FIRST off, you do not draw from the diode, the diode is nothing more than an isolation point for charging... that means your alternator charges through the rectifier, and the rectifiers isolate one battery from the other.. YOU DO NOT PUT YOUR LOAD BEHIND THE DIODES.. LOAD goes direct to the battery terminal.. not sure where your electronics experience is coming from, but YOUR not hooking them up correctly if your load is after the diode (RECTIFIER).. as to the boat switches, to each their own, I have never had a problem with one, there are switches fully capable of handling any amount of current your car/jeep battery is going to use powering a winch or lights, or whatever.. if you buy cheap, sure... it will burn up.. kind of like wiring hi-power lights direct to switches instead of relays.. but... like I said, to each their own, I'm bowing out of this and you can wire any which way you want.. I'll not intervene or comment any further!..
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Unread 11-25-2013, 04:58 AM   #53
JeepHammer
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Please comment! I'm always willing to learn something new!

If I'm getting this correctly (A diagram would clarify things) Diodes for Isolation on charging,

So around 70 Amps on those diodes?
63 to 78 Amp Alternators are pretty common, say 70 Amps to be a safe 'Nominal'... Maybe a little extra for regulator spikes on start up?

I'm trying to get this straight, I'm got it in my head now, so I'm probably going to build it... When things get stuck in my head, there's only one way to get them out... EXERCISE THE DEMONS!

The rated capacity should exceed the rated maximum output of the alternator... Some of these guys have 'Super Duper' alternators that will flash to 220-250 Amps
(Practically, you almost never draw over 40 amps from the alternator, but they still buy those 'Super Duper' alternators anyway...),

-------------------

One could use a Triac (yes, I still call them triacs) for connecting batteries in that case.
It would be current direction sensitive, so you would have to be careful about which battery was in Primary & Secondary positions, but it would work.

Looks like the commercially available units are using about 320 Amp diodes...
So that's some kind of increase in cost!
And a 320 Amp Triac is going to leave most guys $BUT HURT$!
Unless you use that 'China' stuff, it's cheap, but REAL UNRELIABLE!
I have some here for welder repairs, and they are about 40% failure rate out of the box!

I've got 220 amp diodes and triac on the shelf, I don't have 320 the aftermarket guys are advertising...
220 will have to do for mine.

Since a triac needs power input to function, you would have to make sure it was powered from the 'Reserve' battery and not the Primary battery that would be discharged if you screwed up...

If I'm doing the math right, with copper or brass conductors, I'm looking at 5/16" MINIMUM terminals. I got 5/16" brass so I'm good there...

WELL CRAP! With this stuck in my head, there goes the Thanksgiving day off!

-------------------

And like the sealed units that use a triac for battery to battery connection, it WOULD work, be larger than the simple automotive relay, and you couldn't replace it on the road...

You also wouldn't know it failed until one or both batteries were dead.

------------------

I don't really have an aversion to diodes, use them all the time on smaller loads, Excite wire for alternators, rectifier bridges, at least half a dozen in the regulator, some ignition module swaps, ect., but those are usually under 3 amps...

Other than the alternator, just not really common items for Jeepers.
Not available as common 'Discount Sore' parts is the primary reason.
If it's not a fuse, switch, roll of wire or relay... "Auto-Jerks" don't have it.

Anyway, I've spent about two hours on this checking parts, ect.
Looks like I'm going to build this, like it or not...

Relay was 10 minutes and $10... But now I'm on a mission! If you have any ideas about how to wire it, I'd sure like to see them!
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Unread 11-25-2013, 08:42 AM   #54
hutch1200
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http://www.overtons.com/modperl/prod...C&merchID=4006
This is what I WAS gonna use, until J-Hammer put me some knowledge in his write up above. It's what I have in my boat, and I had the same concerns as the OP. Stereo, air pumps for water toys etc off 1 batt, and start w/the other. Then switch to both for the run home to charge both. Boats are NOT Jeeps. The situations are completely different.
Once I realized I could do 100% more w/ J-hammers' set-up, I left that spare switch on the shelf & did it this way. You'll be glad you did.
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Unread 01-05-2014, 01:49 PM   #55
manatee2000
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Great job of discussion on ever ones part. I now feel closer to MIT than ever before. So where would I hook up the Micro wave and hot air popcorn Machine?
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Unread 01-07-2014, 08:38 AM   #56
manatee2000
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1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7
I am looking at moving forward with the a diagram above. Where is the best most cost effective place to purchase the wire online? Also looking for the Jaws to make some jumper cables. Any help would be appriciated.
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Unread 01-19-2014, 08:49 AM   #57
magilla
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1969 C101 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 83
Jeephammer: Two questions

Jeephammer: Excellent thread. I also read your wiring 101 and winch threads, and have performed the "keep your hubs dry" mods.

'69 Jeepster Commando with a 231.

2 questions:

1) I am running a removable hitch mounted winch, an M8000. How did you get 700 amps to the winch without running two positive and two negative 2/0 leads? I get a little confused between this thread and the winching thread, and the pictures, as on some you have 175 amp andersen connectors, and on others you describe 350...

2) Batteries. You talk about having two DCM batteries, but then you also talk about creating a setup using only Marine Starting Batteries, and not using DCM batteries for a dual battery setup. I'm so confused.
__________________
1969 Jeepster Commando w/Buick 231. T14/D20. D30/D44, 4.10 Locked/Spooled. 4x disc brakes, Saginaw PS. 32" x 9.5" Super Swampers.
1970 Jeepster Commando, in pieces. Buick 350 / SM 465 / D20.
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Unread 01-19-2014, 11:22 AM   #58
JeepHammer
Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 10,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by magilla View Post
Jeephammer: Excellent thread. I also read your wiring 101 and winch threads, and have performed the "keep your hubs dry" mods.

'69 Jeepster Commando with a 231.

2 questions:

1) I am running a removable hitch mounted winch, an M8000. How did you get 700 amps to the winch without running two positive and two negative 2/0 leads? I get a little confused between this thread and the winching thread, and the pictures, as on some you have 175 amp andersen connectors, and on others you describe 350...
When I installed the winch, I bumped up to 350 amp connectors.
I had 175 amp connectors before, which was fine for jumper cables, welding, ect. but when I slapped the winches on, it was time for more amperage, so larger connectors, cables, terminals, ect.

Quote:
2) Batteries. You talk about having two DCM batteries, but then you also talk about creating a setup using only Marine Starting Batteries, and not using DCM batteries for a dual battery setup. I'm so confused.
I've changed from Deep Cycle batteries to (Industral) Marine Starting batteries in most things now.

The Deep Cycle were great for really making things work before the winch, But the winch is too much of a draw and discharges the deep cycle TOO FAST.

Deep Cycle batteries are designed for a SLOW discharge over a long period of time, then recharge SLOWLY.

I was discharging them too fast during winch testing (Beating the hell out of them) and they were heating up too much.
The amperage and voltage would drop too fast, they would recover, but couldn't keep up with a winch at a full, dead pull.

Marine Starting Batteries have qualities of both Starting, and deep cycle, but they aren't really either...
They will discharge faster, but not recover as well as full on deep cycle batteries, And I needed the amperage FASTER than deep cycle could deliver.

Now, if a guy wasn't hammering on them time and time again like I was, Deep Cycle would probably be fine...
But someone that pulls cable time and time again might consider something that gives up amperage faster than a true deep cycle.

A full on 'STARTING' battery releases amperage very quickly, but not for very long, and they don't like to 'Recover' very well once discharged.
While 'Marine Starting Batteries' have better recovery but don't quite give up amperage as fast as a true 'Starting' battery...

So I settled for Marine Starting Batteries, since two of them will provide plenty of amperage for the winch, and for hard starts,
They still recover really well after being discharged,
And they will take the higher amperage recharge the vehicle alternator provides them with.
(Remember, DCM are supposed to be SLOW CHARGED, not have 10 or 20 amps thrown at them all at once)...

I also like the dual terminals (Threaded and post) the Marine style batteries have. They make for easy hook ups for things like welding yoke, jumper cable connections, ect. that are still 175 Amp anderson connectors,
While the posts provide the contact surface area for which amperages...
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Unread 01-19-2014, 11:26 AM   #59
JeepHammer
Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 10,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by hutch1200 View Post
http://www.overtons.com/modperl/prod...C&merchID=4006
This is what I WAS gonna use, until J-Hammer put me some knowledge in his write up above. It's what I have in my boat, and I had the same concerns as the OP. Stereo, air pumps for water toys etc off 1 batt, and start w/the other. Then switch to both for the run home to charge both. Boats are NOT Jeeps. The situations are completely different.
Once I realized I could do 100% more w/ J-hammers' set-up, I left that spare switch on the shelf & did it this way. You'll be glad you did.
After failures, I sawed a few of those smaller battery bank switches apart to see what was going on, and you would be surprised how small the contacts are.
Some of them even have STEEL contacts instead of copper or brass, which was something I didn't expect...

Something like a winch on one of those switches starves the winch for amperage,
And it cooks the contacts in the process.

Plus, it's MANUAL, if you forget to turn the knob, you are SCREWED,
Automatic is always better since you simply CAN NOT forget and leave things turned 'ON' and run everything down, or not get things charged back up again and find a dead battery bank when you need them.
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Unread 01-19-2014, 11:33 AM   #60
JeepHammer
Running On Empty...
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 10,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by manatee2000 View Post
I am looking at moving forward with the a diagram above. Where is the best most cost effective place to purchase the wire online? Also looking for the Jaws to make some jumper cables. Any help would be appriciated.
"Jaws"? You mean the crimper to do terminals to cable?

A hammer type cable crimper is cheap, but in most cases, where you buy the cable and terminals will crimp them on for free, no big deal...

Just remember, we are dealing with MECHANICAL CONNECTIONS,
The CRIMP is a MECHANICAL CONNECTION, not an electrical connection.

MECHANICAL CONNECTIONS LET MOISTURE AND CORROSIVES INTO THE ELECTRICAL JOINT/CONNECTION, AND YOU WON'T HAVE A STRONG ELECTRICAL CONNECTION FOR LONG ONCE MOISTURE ENTERS THE WIRING!

A good quality silver bearing solder (Not 'Silver Solder' which takes very high temperatures to work with) will make an ELECTRICAL CONNECTION,
And it's also an environmental protection as well.

Copper is VERY reactive to things like salt, corrosives, so Silver Bearing Electrical Solder will protect the exposed copper, while giving you a very good electrical connection.

Further environmental protection, like spray on corrosion inhibitors, heat shrink, ect. will keep you cables alive much longer than you would expect otherwise...
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