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Unread 03-07-2012, 09:05 AM   #31
JeepHammer
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1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBlaze View Post
So from what I've read on this website: Piranha Off Road Products, there are the normal Continuous Duty solenoid isolators, diode isolators, and electronic isolators. It seems like the electronic isolators are the best of the bunch and do exactly like you've described (alternator in, then out to two different batteries, completely isolated). You wouldn't happen to have any recommendations for this type would you? I'm having a hard time finding any.

Also, what about these 'intelligent' solenoid isolators (4wdsystems.com,Powerstream.com )? The manufactures make it sound like they would work fine in my application because of the extra circuitry built in, but would they truly work as well as the type of isolator you described?
"Intelligent Isolator" is a 'Dummy Switch' between batteries.
Exactly what NOT to do since it reduces current from one battery to the other when you need it most, during starting and winching.

The resistance in that Relay between batteries causes charge imbalance also.

-----------------------------

For charging isolator, you are looking in the wrong place,
RV and Boats use them, Heavy Equipment uses them.

Some Links...

http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont..._Isolators.pdf

http://tweetys.com/120amp2batteryiso...FUgBQAodVhn9bA

http://www.grampianowners.com/Links/...lator_Inst.pdf

http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...surepower.html

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Unread 03-07-2012, 09:48 AM   #32
JeepHammer
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What a lot of people here are missing...

I'm sacrificing battery for production of something I need.
If I'm stuck in BF Egypt with a broken part, I sacrifice about 2% of the battery longevity for welding a 'Fix',
Instead of paying a $400 'Off Road' tow bill.

'Good' batteries are around $100 each, so I'm sacrificing about $20 to save a $400 tow bill.

I'm sacrificing $20 to repair something in the field that would take $400 or $500 to have a portable welder to show up and do the welding when I work on farm equipment.

---------

ROTATING battery positions a couple of times a year helps stop the problems when you lend power or self rescue.

I know perfectly well I'm sacrificing SOME of the potential longevity of the battery life for lending power, camp use, ect.
It's either that, or having a generator scream all night to power the camp,
Or not having a fan on those really hot, muggy nights in the tent and burning propane or camp fuel to light the place,
And electric lights are so much easier/better than gas powered lighting...

CHARGING ISOLATORS, (Not 'Battery Isolators') are the 'Correct' way to charge two different batteries,
But, they have draw backs...
They might not overcharge the stronger of the two batteries (Which is a temporary condition with my system)

Charge Isolators can't function without dropping forward line voltage,

That means chronically undercharged batteries, no matter what position they are in, primary or secondary.
Figure about 1 volt undercharged all the time with dual regulators built in... And that's on the good ones,
Cheap models can drop line voltage by 2.5 volts and sometimes more...

I don't care to have my batteries chronically undercharged.
That's harder on the batteries than short duration overcharging until they equalize...

Since this is 'Off Road' and 'Self Rescue',
We either pay for the extra wear and tear on EVERYTHING,
Or we pay for 'Upgrades' for heavy duty parts to take the wear and tear better.

If I get ONLY the 60 months (5 years) out of 5 year batteries,
Then I'm happy, which has been the case with this system...

With the current system, I'm getting MORE than the warranty 60 months out of the batteries,
Which I DID NOT do with the 'Solenoid'/Relay between batteries,
And the relay between batteries for an 'Isolator' didn't deliver FULL POWER of the second battery,
And it DID NOT give me redundancy to the starter or winch applications.

And I DID NOT get battery warranty life expectancy with a dedicated Charge Isolator since the batteries were chronically undercharged.

My system is OVER BUILT in every sense of the word,
But it's all hard won lessons in 'Self Rescue' and Farm/Trail experience.

*IF* You do NOT intend to weld or 'Lend Power',
Then follow the directions and LEAVE OUT the Anderson Connectors.

If you don't have a winch, or do heavy winching, then leave out the winch Relays and keep the wiring to a smaller gauge like in some of the less complicated diagrams...
--------------

I have had starter relays fail, the reason for DUAL/REDUNDANT full current deliver from BOTH BATTERIES directly to the starter.

I use my starter to pull me out of places the carb won't work, instead of winching, and long before I got a winch.
That second battery DIRECTLY to the starter makes a HUGE difference in that situation.

I've had relays between the batteries fail, which leaves you with a one battery system,
And you usually don't know that relay has failed until you need it.

I lugged around a HUGE alternator converted to a welder,
With all the crap that goes with it, mounting brackets, control boxes, dedicated welding leads, ect.
The batteries weld fine, and none of that cap is cluttering up the vehicle anymore.

When I wanted to 'Lend Power', it was a 30 minute exercise in frustration to find the correct wrench in the tool bag,
Then get a battery out,
Then dig the Jumper cables out, since NO ONE will have Jumper Cables when you run onto them.

If the battery was going into something else, I had to clean terminals, install the battery, ect.
Now it's Pull the battery, plug it into the application, and I'm off to the races in 30 seconds.

THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE!
This is a VERY specific application...


Pick and choose what your APPLICATION demands, then use what you need...
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Unread 03-07-2012, 10:39 AM   #33
cjjon7
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I've got a battery question... could someone look at the specs of the AC delco S2000 model battery and tell me would two of these be good candidates for those dual setup? Rated at load test 330 amps and 660 cca.
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Unread 03-07-2012, 05:33 PM   #34
JonnieBlaze
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Thanks for all the info, JeepHammer.

Here is an isolator I've found that appears to be the diode type (Hellroaring.com). However, the voltage drop is only .05v and they claim is not a problem and will still keep the batteries charged. Their setup also offers the ability to 'jump-start' yourself, use both batteries in parallel for starting, and use both batteries in parallel for winching. Its a bit pricey, and considering I dont have identical batteries so can't just hook them up together with a relay, this may be worth the price? Looking at the other isolators you linked me to (thanks for that by the way), they dont mention voltage drop so i'm assuming they are the normal diode type that will drop the charge down by 1 volt.

On that website they do a TON of comparisons between their isolator and the normal diodes or relays. Seems like a good product...at least from my newb eyes....
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Unread 03-07-2012, 06:05 PM   #35
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBlaze View Post
Thanks for all the info, JeepHammer.

Here is an isolator I've found that appears to be the diode type (Hellroaring.com). However, the voltage drop is only .05v and they claim is not a problem and will still keep the batteries charged. Their setup also offers the ability to 'jump-start' yourself, use both batteries in parallel for starting, and use both batteries in parallel for winching. Its a bit pricey, and considering I dont have identical batteries so can't just hook them up together with a relay, this may be worth the price? Looking at the other isolators you linked me to (thanks for that by the way), they dont mention voltage drop so i'm assuming they are the normal diode type that will drop the charge down by 1 volt.

On that website they do a TON of comparisons between their isolator and the normal diodes or relays. Seems like a good product...at least from my newb eyes....
I stumbled onto some of that 'Hellroaring' stuff, and I didn't care for it.

I'll stick with Sure Power stuff, I've used it for years, Had it in our display trucks, tool trucks, boats, it always works and it usually has the least voltage drop of any of the Charging isolators.
Sure Power has full on voltage regulators, not just a split diode system.

An isolator has no business trying to connect batteries for discharge,
That's a full on heavy duty relay job...
Besides, you want to pay for the entire shot again if the relay in that charger stops working?

I know a 'Combined' system looks good,
But if ONE component goes out, you are screwed and have to buy the entire thing over again...
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Unread 08-13-2012, 05:37 AM   #36
KerrMonster
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Great write-up. I might actually figure this out now. Got a few questions though.

1) In your winch diagram, what is the winch "arm" switch? Is that like an additional on/off switch that you run to your dash? I don't think my warn winch has any other wires besides hot and ground.

2) Is that third solenoid you added for the winch another starting solenoid or a continuous duty one?

3) I have a Cummins 4BT swapped into my 78 CJ7. It takes a good amount of juice to turn that starter, plus run all the regular jeep stuff like winches/radios, etc. Can you recommend a type of battery and solenoid to use? I've read all sorts of do's and don'ts regarding starting vs. deep cycle, using two of each, or using a starting battery for the main battery and a deep cycle for accessories. I've heard Optima vs. Odessey, and then you talk about just staying with a regular battery. I'm not interested in paying for an expensive battery unless it's absolutely what my jeep needs. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Last edited by KerrMonster; 08-13-2012 at 06:37 AM..
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Unread 09-14-2012, 04:16 PM   #37
Magical_Merlin
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Jeephammer, I sent you a PM. But in case others have the same question here it is.

Im looking at the three solenoid dual battery wiring. What solenoids do you recommend? 2 starter solenoids and 1 continuous duty for the winch arm solenoid?

Also, can I just run a charge wire to both solenoids from the alternator to charge both batteries?

Thanks.
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Unread 09-15-2012, 10:37 PM   #38
MountainHound
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JH
I am going this route as well with the three solenoid winch setup with the Anderson connector on the lend battery.

But I have some advice from my experience with Anderson connectors:
I absolutely recommend the Anderson connectors! I use them for our load bank at work and it makes things simple and easy espescially when I have to connect to multiple generators over the course of a day..only had one break when I dropped it then stepped on it I use them to load anywhere from 10 to 200A per phase with 4/0 welding cable in between the Anderson and a cam lock stlye connector to the load. I do this from one to two hours continually... one hour max on 120/208 and two upwards on 277/480. I have done this for YEARS. This is also repeatedly connecting disconnecting in all weather here in CO. A couple of years back I put one on my spare battery in the Jeep and used it multiple times for jump starting. Also hear someone had a hard time finding them. I get mine from Grainger.

With that said I have the same question about the winch arm in the diagram that Kerrmonster has...but I am at the getting parts together stage. My questions are mainly relay related.

Where did you get the compressor relay pigtail and do you have part numbers for matching relay and pigtail?
I want to go with the 70A B3 pinout but have found some with a diode that are a little more expensive. Do I need the one with or without the diode and what is the diode for?

I am going with the BWD select starter solenoids. Any thoughts?

Thanks again for all of your advice! I have done the Team Rush, dedicated grounds upgrade, along with proper sized and placed 2 AWG welding cable where needed and all crimped soldered sealed connections on all wires. I recommend it to anyone who wants a electrically reliable Jeep.

BTW Milspec electrical is what you say it is on military equipment. I am military and a electrician/ generator mechanic and the last thing you want to troubleshoot in the field is shotty electrical.

Last edited by MountainHound; 09-21-2012 at 09:26 AM..
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Unread 09-16-2012, 12:17 AM   #39
MountainHound
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrMonster View Post

I've heard Optima vs. Odessey, and then you talk about just staying with a regular battery. I'm not interested in paying for an expensive battery unless it's absolutely what my jeep needs. Any suggestions?

Thanks
If I may add my .02. I would look at Deka from Penn. I have been testing them for a while as I replaced my other optima batteries through attrition at work. They have held up great. We use AGMs due to existing charger compatibility, vibration, size, maintenance man hour and hazards (OSHA) as opposed to regular lead acid maintenance type.

I use a group 34 intimidator in the Jeep. They are $80 or more (depending) cheaper than optimas and come with a 12 month battery replacement and prorated warranty after that. I am not sure about pro rated warranties...eh but they use a smelter to recycle the lead, recycle the plastics, and use the gases for fertilizer that keeps their prices low.



Link to compare specs:
http://www.remybattery.com/Deka-Inti...y--P4547.aspx#

We stopped using Optimas when the quality dropped and the price doubled. Never had problems with the old ones and they are still in service but I'd say enough of the new had issues it got to the point we had to start looking for a suitable sub. I spoke with a few people and it may be the optimas need a trickle charger in storage after a certain time. That may explain the reason begind getting new optimas that have problems out of the box.

A good 3-4 stage battery tender helps as well and they are cheap and reliable nowadays whichever battery you choose.

Last edited by MountainHound; 10-09-2012 at 11:54 PM.. Reason: Optima info
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Unread 09-16-2012, 12:45 AM   #40
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If you don't want to make the larger cables for lack of crimps mainly you may want to look at genuinedealz.com
They have FREE shipping. I had them make my larger 2/0 cables while I did the smaller ones for time sake. They are CHEAP and their work is quality.
I just took measurements after deciding which direction I wanted to go, made a powerpoint with sizing and ends etc... and emailed it to them. Took measurements with a length of spare rope to get hands on fitment. I think it took about four days ro receive after the order.

This was 3 years ago but the site is still up

Last edited by MountainHound; 10-09-2012 at 11:55 PM..
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Unread 05-17-2013, 04:30 PM   #41
91blaze
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I know this is an older thread but it goes with a problem i have. I want to be able to play music in my truck for extended periods of time with the engine off. Basically i want a deep cycle battery for music, lights, etc. when the truck is off but have a second battery for starting. I want them isolated while the engine is off and while starting but both charging while engine is running. Would this setup require a special isolator or am i going about this the wrong way?
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Unread 05-17-2013, 05:15 PM   #42
91blaze
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Would running a simple dual battery setup with two starting batteries stand up to 2 or 3 hours of music with the engine off? If so then you can ignore my previous post.
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Unread 05-17-2013, 05:48 PM   #43
VooDoo2
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I can run music for 2-3 days with zero issues with discharging batteries. if yours is going flat in 2-3hrs then either you need to look at the batteries or turn the fooly sik subs off.
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Unread 05-17-2013, 09:47 PM   #44
91blaze
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I dont know how long the batteries should last which is why im asking. For the record i do have 2 10" subs. If you think they will be fine running music then i will stick with a simple dual battery setup.
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Unread 05-18-2013, 07:35 AM   #45
billybooster2
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Batteries last for as many amps as you pull kind of. I would definitely isolate the batteries wither with clever dual solenoid fancy wiring, or, just a boat switch under the hood to chose which battery to kill and which one for start
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