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Unread 01-01-2012, 12:30 PM   #16
Dresden
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I was needing something like this for my build. Very nicely done.

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Unread 01-04-2012, 01:50 PM   #17
AppStateTJ
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If the winch needs 2 AWG, I will need to upgrade all of the cables, right?
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Unread 01-04-2012, 02:26 PM   #18
JeepHammer
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EVERYTHING TO THE WINCH.
From the starter relay to the starter, you can use what ever you want,

But the 'GROUND' or NEGATIVE to the winch needs to be as large as the input to the winch,
Most people screw that up and don't provide a solid 'Ground' for the winch...

BATTERY POSITIVE TO WINCH needs to be as large as you can find, 2 Ga. MINIMUM to supply a large winch properly.
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Unread 01-04-2012, 03:04 PM   #19
Erik719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
EVERYTHING TO THE WINCH.
From the starter relay to the starter, you can use what ever you want,

But the 'GROUND' or NEGATIVE to the winch needs to be as large as the input to the winch,
Most people screw that up and don't provide a solid 'Ground' for the winch...

BATTERY POSITIVE TO WINCH needs to be as large as you can find, 2 Ga. MINIMUM to supply a large winch properly.
I'm using 00 welding cable for the positive and negative.
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Unread 01-04-2012, 03:14 PM   #20
JeepHammer
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Can't go wrong with that!
Anything above about 2/0 Cable and you are reaching the point of diminishing returns.

I've tried larger cables, and the motor still heats up as much as it did with 2/0 cables,
In fact, 2/0 is a bit big, but I want my winch to get everything it can use even when the cables/terminals get older and have slight problems with corrosion and such.

So I'd say the motor terminals can't handle any more delivery, and there isn't anything you can do about the (usually) steel terminals in the winch motors without owning your own electrical shop and doing WAY MORE work than is needed...

Keeping rust/corrosion off those motor terminals is a FULL TIME JOB!
We wheel a lot in old coal mine pits, and the water there is corrosive like crazy!
(The only thing I've found that is worse is salt water!)

I'm big on keeping those terminals well protected, dielectric grease or battery terminal protector spray is your friend in those cases!
The more water/corrosives/oxygen you can seal out the better!
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Unread 01-09-2012, 02:57 PM   #21
hcollado
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Switch

Is it necessary to have a "Self Rescue Switch" in this set up?

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Unread 01-17-2012, 07:56 PM   #22
robert1973
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My question is that ive heard mixing a fully charged battery and a low battery is bad. If you lent out a battery for a jump or ran some electric items in camp and discharged the battery, would that be harmful putting it back in with the charged battery in a duel system? Or is this one of those backyard garage myths? Your diagrams have made it so simple for me to understand how to do mine I thank you so much, Awesome thread!!!
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Unread 01-17-2012, 08:30 PM   #23
stewknob
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Thank you for the diagram and the info it is going to make my install much simpler
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Unread 01-17-2012, 09:55 PM   #24
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcollado View Post
Is it necessary to have a "Self Rescue Switch" in this set up?

Do you think you will ever leave the key or headlights on and run the primary battery dead?

If so, the 'Self Rescue' switch lets you draw from the SECONDARY battery to get things cranking again...


Quote:
Originally Posted by robert1973 View Post
My question is that ive heard mixing a fully charged battery and a low battery is bad. If you lent out a battery for a jump or ran some electric items in camp and discharged the battery, would that be harmful putting it back in with the charged battery in a duel system? Or is this one of those backyard garage myths? Your diagrams have made it so simple for me to understand how to do mine I thank you so much, Awesome thread!!!
MIXING DIFFERENT AGE OR SIZE OR TYPE of batteries is 'BAD', Very bad in fact.

A 'Good' battery that has been discharged will charge back up fairly rapidly, so there isn't as big of an issue as being stranded...

I use DEEP CYCLE batteries which tolerate deep discharging better than 'Starting' batteries,
And I use the same size/age batteries when I start out...

You will usually kill a deep cycle battery when used as a 'Starting' battery by it's self.
DCM wasn't made to be QUICKLY discharged.

But when you use TWO DCM batteries, you only drain them HALF as much, so with two DCM you are fine for starting, winching, ect.

A 'Good' battery that has been run down, but not LEFT LAYING AROUND RUN DOWN,
Will charge back up pretty quickly, and it's got the second battery to help charge it in a two battery system.
Don't leave ANY battery run down for weeks or months. No battery can survive that without damage, but overnight isn't an issue...

Mine have about 5 years on them, with no issues, and they are the smallest DCM commonly available. Both test about the same with a full on load tester, so they are still compatible.

--------------------------

You CAN NOT mix different age, size, type of batteries.
The 'Lesser' of the batteries will CONSTANTLY demand charge from the alternator,
And the entire time it's trying to charge up the weaker of the two, it's OVER CHARGING the stronger of the two batteries,
And overcharging is worst in the short term than under charging...

When overcharged, the plates in the battery heat up, boil off the electrolyte, warp plates, bloat the case, ect.

Same Age, Type, Size batteries and you shouldn't have many problems.
Just remember to swap 'Primary' and 'Secondary' battery positions once in a while (when you change oil, oil filter, air filter, clean battery terminals, ect.) and they live a good long time together.
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Unread 02-09-2012, 10:17 AM   #25
medicjz
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I have a question regarding the Anderson Connectors. I understand the wiring, but wouldn't the connectors need to be bigger due to amp draw during starting and winching? I noted in the drawings that they are only 175 amp connectors. Of is that rating for continuous use and not "intermittent use" as in the spike from starting and the on/off of winching? Thanks in advance, and great write up.
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Unread 02-09-2012, 10:51 AM   #26
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicjz View Post
I have a question regarding the Anderson Connectors. I understand the wiring, but wouldn't the connectors need to be bigger due to amp draw during starting and winching? I noted in the drawings that they are only 175 amp connectors. Of is that rating for continuous use and not "intermittent use" as in the spike from starting and the on/off of winching? Thanks in advance, and great write up.
Two batteries, each battery capable of 175 amps, 350 Amps total to the starter.
More than enough when you don't live someplace that is REALLY COLD.

If you live where it's stupid cold, either MOVE somewhere warmer,
Or use bigger connectors.

--------------------

I use TWO batteries,
When I installed the winch, I used 350 amp connectors since the winch will draw 700 amps just before complete stall out
(zero volt condition, or dead short though the armature of the winch motor, which is VERY bad! Motor becomes melted slag when it hits 700 amps and zero volts).

Two batteries, 2 each 350 Amp connectors (one on each battery),
700 Amps Nominal,
Much more amperage capable when used for short term use, like winching or starting the engine.

You will get at least 700 amps under full time, full load (100% duty cycle),
While my duty cycle is under 2 minutes with the winch, even less with the starter, around 30 seconds for the starter...
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Unread 03-06-2012, 07:01 PM   #27
JonnieBlaze
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Short version: Can I add some kind of heavy duty switch between the double starter relays and the starter so I can choose which battery will turn the starter? I know I'll lose out on the 'double power' to the starter your system offers, but it would also isolate my batteries at all times unless the engine was running and charging both batteries

Long winded version:
I've read that when one battery is too low to turn the engine over, just hooking the batteries up together will drain the good one to the point that neither of them will be able to start the vehicle. By using the 'double starter relays' to provide twice the power to the starter, as well as 'jump-start' mode, for a couple seconds while you have the key turned to 'Start' you are essentially wiring the batteries directly up to each other and doing the same thing I've read is not-so-good. While you're 'Starting', you're not only using the good battery to turn the starter, but you're also filling up the low battery. Is this not really a big deal since you'll only be activating those starter relays for a couple seconds?

The reason I ask is because I already have a starting battery and starting/deep cycle battery ready to put in my Jeep. I bought them thinking it would be a good idea to have a deep cycle for accessories and camp, but I couldn't find a small enough deep cycle for the second battery so I went with a normal starting battery.

I'm trying to find a way around this problem I asked about above since my batteries are different types and I don't want them to ever be directly wired together (unless the engine is already running and charging). I'm guessing the only way to accomplish this is to have some kind of switch that would accept the output of the two starter relays, and only send one to the starter. I'd be loosing out on the 'double power' advantage your system has, but at least my batteries would never be directly wired together unless the engine was on and charging.
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Unread 03-06-2012, 09:37 PM   #28
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBlaze View Post
Short version: Can I add some kind of heavy duty switch between the double starter relays and the starter so I can choose which battery will turn the starter? I know I'll lose out on the 'double power' to the starter your system offers, but it would also isolate my batteries at all times unless the engine was running and charging both batteries

Long winded version:
I've read that when one battery is too low to turn the engine over, just hooking the batteries up together will drain the good one to the point that neither of them will be able to start the vehicle. By using the 'double starter relays' to provide twice the power to the starter, as well as 'jump-start' mode, for a couple seconds while you have the key turned to 'Start' you are essentially wiring the batteries directly up to each other and doing the same thing I've read is not-so-good. While you're 'Starting', you're not only using the good battery to turn the starter, but you're also filling up the low battery. Is this not really a big deal since you'll only be activating those starter relays for a couple seconds?

The reason I ask is because I already have a starting battery and starting/deep cycle battery ready to put in my Jeep. I bought them thinking it would be a good idea to have a deep cycle for accessories and camp, but I couldn't find a small enough deep cycle for the second battery so I went with a normal starting battery.

I'm trying to find a way around this problem I asked about above since my batteries are different types and I don't want them to ever be directly wired together (unless the engine is already running and charging). I'm guessing the only way to accomplish this is to have some kind of switch that would accept the output of the two starter relays, and only send one to the starter. I'd be loosing out on the 'double power' advantage your system has, but at least my batteries would never be directly wired together unless the engine was on and charging.
Charge Isolator.
Alternator feed goes in, two battery charging posts come out for two different batteries, complete with two voltage regulators for each battery.
You would use that instead of small relay to connect batteries during charging once the oil pressure comes up.

Connecting the batteries during start up cycle isn't an issue,
You connect the IMMEDIATELY BEFORE you hit the key (key actually connects them), Same as jump starting,
As soon as you let off the key, they are disconnected,
The charge isolator takes over and charges each at different rates.

Charge isolator is the only way to charge two different size, age or types of batteries correctly.
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Unread 03-07-2012, 03:12 AM   #29
Attwanl
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Nice write up....very detailed
Thanks
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Unread 03-07-2012, 07:33 AM   #30
JonnieBlaze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Charge Isolator.
Alternator feed goes in, two battery charging posts come out for two different batteries.....
....Charge isolator is the only way to charge two different size, age or types of batteries correctly.
So from what I've read on this website: Piranha Off Road Products, there are the normal Continuous Duty solenoid isolators, diode isolators, and electronic isolators. It seems like the electronic isolators are the best of the bunch and do exactly like you've described (alternator in, then out to two different batteries, completely isolated). You wouldn't happen to have any recommendations for this type would you? I'm having a hard time finding any.

Also, what about these 'intelligent' solenoid isolators (4wdsystems.com,Powerstream.com )? The manufactures make it sound like they would work fine in my application because of the extra circuitry built in, but would they truly work as well as the type of isolator you described?
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