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Unread 02-15-2012, 09:06 AM   #16
walkerhoundvm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titomars View Post
I know nothing specific to the Howell system, but what you describe is common over on the Cherokee forum. i have had this happen to my Cherokee too. 9 times out of 10 it is a failed or failing crank position sensor. On the 4.0 it is the one sensor that will kill the engine at any time. Just a suggestion for you.
I've never run into that one, but you're right, it's a good one to check. There is a spade connector that plugs into the distributor cap - check it to make sure it's seated well.

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Unread 02-15-2012, 09:53 AM   #17
outdoorguy86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titomars View Post
I know nothing specific to the Howell system, but what you describe is common over on the Cherokee forum. i have had this happen to my Cherokee too. 9 times out of 10 it is a failed or failing crank position sensor. On the 4.0 it is the one sensor that will kill the engine at any time. Just a suggestion for you.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure my jeep has a CPS though. From the factory it had a carb, and I was under the impression that there was no CPS on the carbed jeeps. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think my jeep has one.
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Unread 02-15-2012, 10:16 AM   #18
sherlocktk
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There is no CPS on the howell system. The howell's only "igntion" based input is the tach signal from coil - wire. Its the only way the comptuer knows the engine is "running" The rest are sensors for fuel mixture.

you might want to get a couple of cheap lights from local auto parts store so you can "see" if something is getting electricity and when. I would probably put one on the fuel pump and the +12 ignition wire you used to get power for the howell computer. (on mine this wire is a large 10 gauge red wire with white stripe)
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Unread 02-15-2012, 10:17 AM   #19
walkerhoundvm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorguy86 View Post
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure my jeep has a CPS though. From the factory it had a carb, and I was under the impression that there was no CPS on the carbed jeeps. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think my jeep has one.
I think what both of us meant (well me at least) was that spade connector that attaches to the distributor coil (not distributor as I said above). The computer picks up a tach signal there.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #20
outdoorguy86
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So I was trying to think back to when exactly the problems started with the jeep (the engine problems, its a jeep it will always have problems....). I had micro cracks in the rubber fuel line going up to the TBI, so I replaced both that and the return line. I used the same diameter that was on there, 5/16 from the pump and 1/4 on the return. I picked up an inline fuel pressure gauge, but have yet to install it. But I was thinking that maybe the diameter of these lines is causing problems. It looks like some others are running 3/8 from the pump and 5/16 on the return. Is this what most everyone is running? I threw a tach on there yesterday, it seems to be a little high at idle, around 1k. This could be due to excess pressure I suppose. I'll let you know what the pressure is when I get the gauge in in the next day or two.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 05:09 AM   #21
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Install the guage on the return line. You want 0 psi. 1/4" is too small IMO.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 07:52 AM   #22
outdoorguy86
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Install the guage on the return line. You want 0 psi. 1/4" is too small IMO.
I wanted to get a gauge for each line, but they only had one in stock. the gauge is made to fit 3/8" line, so getting it on the 1/4 return line may be a challenge. I figured it would be better to have it on the line from the pump, that way I can get that reading. to see if there is a blockage on the return I can just pull the hose and run it into a can and then see if the pressure goes down.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 12:28 AM   #23
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So here is an update. I got the pressure gauge in this evening. I was really hoping it would be a fuel pressure issue, but it looks like I'm getting 11-12 psi from the pump. Once the engine warms up a bit, rpms are about where they should be around 650. That may be a little on the low side, but not way off.

I let it idle until it died. Looking into the TBI there was quite a bit of fuel all over the place. Tried to get it to turn over again, but no dice. I do hear the fuel pump turn on each time and I am getting fuel from the injectors. Pulled out the multimeter and measured the voltage on the ignition coil. With the key in Run, it was only reading 6V, but it should be reading 12. Would this mean bad coil?

I've been reading up on some other things that could potentially be issues, maybe the IAC or the TPS. I've been planning on doing some dedicated grounds, so I think I'll get that project rolling and see if it helps at all. I'm running out of things I can think of to test....
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Unread 02-18-2012, 04:20 AM   #24
gmakra
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You do have an electrical issue. The TPS (throttle postion sensor) will manifest its self as a rough an uneven increase in RPMs so I would tend to discount this as a problem now. The IAC or isle air controller sounds like it may need attention since your RPM is a bit down, but I also dont think this is the problem.

All your grounds on the TBI system should come together at one location and be soldered and then run to the battery negative.

But what it sounds like is a problem with your coolant temp switch and the reason I say this is at 180 degrees you should go from open loop to closed loop. Open loop the engine more or less disreguards sensor inputs. In closed loop all the sensors are in play.

When you cool the engine down your back in open loop and you run for a few min till you go back into closed loop.


It sounds like when you hit open loop you end up killing the engine. Since more of these sensors work at low voltages less than a volt. You may have something grounding out the system.I would look for any nicks or obvious problems through out the Howell harness.

In the end it will be some really simple.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 05:45 AM   #25
james04si
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I thought it went in closed loop when the o2 sensor got to temp nothing to do with coolant temp. Coolant temp will affect several fuel AFR maps but I did not think it affected closed loop operation or am I wrong? I think the first thing to do would be to find out why there is no CEL when cranking only when in the run position when it is warm. To me that would indicate that the computer is not seeing the correct signal to start.


I take that back. Just looked at the stock Howell bin file and it looks like the minimum coolant temp for closed loop scalar shows 32 degrees. So I guess there is a relation but sitting for 10 mins would never allow it to cool that much.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 09:40 AM   #26
gmakra
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Its been a few years since I played with the Howell TBI but I do recall 180 is when it swings over into to closed loop. It has nothing to do with the O-2 sensor
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Unread 02-18-2012, 09:51 AM   #27
walkerhoundvm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmakra View Post
But what it sounds like is a problem with your coolant temp switch and the reason I say this is at 180 degrees you should go from open loop to closed loop. Open loop the engine more or less disreguards sensor inputs. In closed loop all the sensors are in play.
You did see he went through and replaced his O2, coolant, and MAP sensors, right?


Quote:
In the end it will be some really simple.
On this I agree. That system is so simple that the answer is going to be simple.

But I'm leaning towards a problem outside of the system at this point - defo electrical, possibly related to grounds or a bad lead.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 10:23 AM   #28
james04si
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Its been a few years since I played with the Howell TBI but I do recall 180 is when it swings over into to closed loop. It has nothing to do with the O-2 sensor
Actually the reason that there are 3-4 wire o2 sensors is because they have to reach a certain temperature in order to allow closed loop operation. the 3-4 wire sensors are heated sensors. you would use one of those sensors to get into closed loop sooner or if your sensor is too far away from the engine in the downpipe to get hot enough to run closed loop. closed loop does not require the temp sensor to be 180 degrees. Even the stock APAB bin file for a 4.3 GM with manual will allow closed loop way sooner at 48 degrees. A low temp sensor will cause the ECU to use a different AFR and possibly enable the choke AFR parameters but it would still be in closed loop as long as the o2 sensor has reached the proper temp.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #29
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Not the same set up but wanted to throw this out for others;

I had the same problem when on a steep rock climb. Computer saw something it did not like (maybe via O2 sensor) and messed with metering pins and timing. Thought it was flodding but it would only start again if throttle was pumped like crazy. Took some years off my starter i'm sure. Did Nutter bypass and problem went away 100%. Same climb up Dish Pan Springs and no stalls at all.

BBD from hell! Changed to Webber and have a whole new problem. Enough about me.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 08:36 PM   #30
outdoorguy86
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I was under the impression that the IAC was related with the switch from open to close loop. I'll start putting in some dedicated grounds per jeephammers diagrams tomorrow and see if that does anything for me. I'm loving all the input you guys are giving, big thanks to everyone that has been contributing.
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