Just got done pulling the radiator out to drop it off to get checked tomorrow. The lower hose definitely doesn't have a spring and wasn't even very "firm", i could see it getting sucked in as being a potential problem.
However, where the heck do you find a hose with a reinforcing spring in it? None of the standard parts stores around me had one, just the standard hose. Anyone has a part number or idea?
I went ahead and returned the flex-a-lite setup, as i had a tight return window for a full refund and it wouldn't fit my current radiator. So i thought while i had everything out, i'd go ahead and replace the fan clutch, i can't tell what kind of shape it's in. It's cheap enough it's worth doing i figure.
Thanks for all the help, i'm hoping to have this sorted this week!
Last edited by valkadesh; 08-09-2009 at 02:50 PM..
One thing you might consider is you may be running a 195 thermostat. I *think* that may be stock, and 195 is supposed to be more efficient with fuel injection anyway. The three core is a must as far as I'm concerned. I have the water pump that came on my cj new in 1975 with a 160 degree thermostat, a 7 blade clutchless solid fan, and a three core radiator that runs 180-200 on the interstate.
My jeep gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, Just Empties Every Pocket!
I decided to take the old radiator to the shop to get it checked out. I'll have it back tomorrrow and should know how "bad" it was. I also picked up a new lower radiator hose from NAPA (i couldn't find one with a spring in it anywhere),and the new fan clutch should also be in tomorrow.
I'll get all that thrown on by mid-week and give it a spin. If that doesn't fix it i'm moving on to the water pump (which i highly doubt), engine timing and vacuum advance.
I'll move to a 3-core last since i don't even think it'll fit (at least no one can agree), plus the 2 core HD should be more than adequate for a stock 258...
I'll add one thing to this thread. I don't necessarily think it is your issue, but worth checking.
I had an issue with the new gauges (and the old ones I was running) where the temp gauge was reading high. Autometer suggested that I run a dedicated "ground" to ensure I was getting a good ground on this. Turned out that it fixed the issue. I was running a ground off the main center gauge which I guess was causing some signal issues with the ground. I know have a clean ground jump off point inside the cab.
Once I had a good ground in place, temp was showing all normal....
Like I said, may not be your issue, or may only be a part of the issue, but check where your ground is coming from with the gauge, maybe run a temporary right from the battery and see if it changes things.
I also picked up a new lower radiator hose from NAPA (i couldn't find one with a spring in it anywhere.
Any spring that fits internal to the lower radiator hoze will work fine. It just keeps the hoze from sucking shut/ pinching. The auto store should have one if not ck your jeep dealer. This is a common item and should be avail at multiple locations.
If only two years old did not need a new hose. The internal spring is what you want.
I just called Napa and ORiley for you and both do not carry the spring by itself. Both said the new hose quality does not need an interal spring. I am not sure if sold on this or not. I would try and find a SS spring in the 1.5" or smaller range and just find one that fits internal.
ORiley did carry a rubber flex hose with the spring internal. If that is the same diameter then you could use the spring or the whole product.
A call to the local jeep dealer is also in order. So... I called the jeep dealer and they no longer carry the hose for the 258. Suggested you go to Napa and look at all the hozes and look for one with a spring and try to match the 1.5" ID and then you have a good combo. With spring you eliminate the hose sucking closed and can fix or find out what the issue is.
Here is an article I found on quick search. Good info and I believe both arguments. So for our old CJ's with old radiators there is a need for the spring. The second gentlemans point on internal press is also good. Since the problem is at hwy speed and high rpms and this is high flow/vacuum levels I think the hose is sucking closed. New hose maybe still enough to stop the collasp but once in there for a few yrs and gets softer this problem may come back. On old cars/jeeps I will use/change to a lower press radiator cap from 16 psi to 8/9psi. The lower press equals, lower boing temp, also lowers the internal hose press and can suck closed easier as said in the lower web article.
Originally Posted by joe_peters
I would say that the hose collapsing issue was known to the SAE engineers working for Jeep, otherwise the factory hoses would not have come with the springs in them to prevent the collapse.
So, now that the aftermarket (and dealer too?) hoses don't come with the springs, the therory has been put forward that because of improved hose construction the spring is no longer required. My view of mankind is that it is cheaper without the spring, thus no spring.
I advise you find a SS spring of the appropriate size and install it.
The only time I can see the need for the spring is on a cold start up just as the thermostat opens and the flow surges, and the internal coolant pressure (versus ambient) is still low. Until the thermostat opens the only flow is through the heater core or renix bottle (the by pass). Once the coolant warms up just a little the internal pressure quickly exceeds the external pressure, especially in the open system which should have no air in it. Pressure build up is much more gradual in the renix since it has air in the coolant bottle all the time, so the renix system may have had more need for the spring. I could see a lower hose collapsing if the thermostat and or radiator are partially blocked, but in that case the spring is not solving the real problem, which is blockage.
Just out of curiosity, how many people here permanently solved an overheating problem by adding a missing a spring? How many developed an overheating problem by leaving the spring out?
All my fluid mechanics and thermodynamics education tells me if that lower hose collapses on a warmed up system, it is due to a low pressure area in that hose, caused by a pump sucking on a clogged radiator or stuck thermostat.
Thanks for checking around, I do really appreciate it! I got the hose at napa, and talked to the manager at length. He gave me the same argument that the newer hoses don't need them. I'm doubting it too, but we'll see.
I'm very curious what the radiator guy will say tomorrow about the state of the radiator. I'm excited to get things thrown back together and give it a spin.
As for the gauge, i already ran a dedicated ground for it, but that's a good idea none-the-less. Thanks.
Another update. I got the radiator back today. They took it apart and completely inspected it. They found absolutely nothing. He said it was in great shape. So that rules that out. I got the fan clutch picked up today at lunch to go along with the new hoses.
I guess i'll throw everything back together tonight or tomorrow, but i don't have high hopes.
We'll see. And yes, i spent the $5 on a new 16 PSI cap....at this point, what's $5 anyways! Thanks for the well wishes, although it's supposed to rain tonight, so i may get it done, but not be able to drive it!
I got the 2 core radiator re-installed, the new hoses installed (never could find a spring), new rad cap installed, new fan clutch installed today, and new 50/50 antifreeze put in. Everything bolted up real nice.
To summarize, no real change. I can run about 210 on the interstate which is normal, but without the winch on. It also creeped when i got off the interstate, but just for a second.
I also checked the timing with the engine warm, vacuum advance plugged and disconnected. I was sitting at 4 degrees, which i know is a little on the low side, but i was worried it was too far advanced.
I think i'm done for a while on this. I'm thinking that radiator is just too small, and i'm not positive i can fit a 3 core in. I've only got 1 1/4 clearance with the clutch fan now. I'm guessing the 3 core will knock that down to 1/2 an inch.
I may just end up selling my 8274 and getting something smaller. I just think it's blocking too much air flow and with a 2 core, it can't handle it.
I ran a leaky 3 row 'til I upgraded to a 4 row radiator, no fan shroud on either. The 195* thermostat with no fan clutch and the stock 4 blade fan and never have problems with overheating. The water pump is a stock replacement. Fan belt can't be too tight or loose or it'll slip.
I know some guys don't do it but I drill an 1/8" hole in the thermostat between the outer edge and the center to help get the air out. Then 50/50 water and anti-freeze,
You may need a block flush. I've had water pumps with the vanes rusted off, old thermostat parts and freeze plugs come out during a flush on different engines over the years. Dirt from emergency water fills out of ditches. Rust and debri can really build up in a block. It can settle and displace water to where you are running a lower volume of coolant and restrict water jacket passages even though it doesn't make it's way to the radiator.
A bad freeze plug can leak water when running and suck air when it cools. The plugs in the back of the engine within the bell housing are the ones I thread and install pipe plugs into. The over all cooling system is pretty involved when you start looking over and study it.
We get temps up to 120 around here and most of Ca. get the low 100s during the summer.
I've cooled down for a few days now, and i think I've come up with a decent option.
I'm going to go ahead and buy a 3 core radiator, probably the ready-rad RR433583. Now in doing this i'm going to assume (although i'll check), that i won't have enough clearance to fit the 7 blade clutch fan i'm using now.
With that in mind, does anyone sell an adapter to where i can use the same fan, but as a fixed mechanical fan instead of a clutch fan? I basically need a new mount to the waterpump that holds it. I'm not sure if this came stock on any application, but i thought i'd check. In removing the clutch piece, i think i'll have enough clearance. I'd prefer to do this instead of getting a brand new "flex fan", as I've heard horror stories about those.
I figured this way i could keep my existing shroud as well.
I think you may be thinking too hard about this. Plenty of people run larger radiators and don't have fan interference issues - they even posted so in this thread. If you are worried, ask the vendor which side the additional core has been added on and/or have them give you a measurement from the mounting flange to the core surface. Otherwise, mock-up the 3-core when it arrives. As long as your motor mounts are good, your body bushing under the radiator is good, and your grille support rods are adjusted properly (there is adjustibility in those), you don't need a whole lot of clearance between the thermal clutch and the radiator.