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Unread 07-21-2010, 07:48 PM   #16
Darthteddy
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Have you looked into Dow-Corning Product Number 3-9161? Could perhaps be an alternative to the other product. Not sure how price compares. Its kinda pricey but so is everything. Its Dimethyl based, not sure about what the factory stuff was. Could be a contender tho.

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Unread 07-22-2010, 06:53 AM   #17
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Thread cleaned and retitled...I will leave it open, but if the crap starts again or any more Toyota rants (we don't care) start, I'm closing it and handing out bans. This info has been posted here more than enough times.
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Unread 07-22-2010, 10:22 AM   #18
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Grease compatiblity chart

+Grease Compatibility

Wow, thread cleaned ,thanks,

I will have to read up on that Dow stuff, havent heard of that sort of grease,
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Unread 07-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #19
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Dow goop

I read a bit on this viscous coupling fluid and now my head hurts,


1. A fluid for viscous coupling, consisting essentially of:

an organopolysiloxane having a viscosity of from 1,000 to 500,000 mm2 /s (25 C.) represented by the formula: ##STR4## where R of said organopolysiloxane represents a hydrocarbon group have 1 to 18 carbon atoms and may be the same or different, and may be halogenated, an n represents an integer of 130 to 1,500; and

at least 0.01 to 5 weight %, based on said polyorganosiloxane, of one or more types of substances selected from the following groups: ##STR5## where R of said groups represents hydrogen, alkyl group, aryl group or benzyl group, and may be the same or different; and

up to 5 wt. % of an antioxidant based on the organopolysiloxane.


2. A fluid for viscous coupling according to claim 1, wherein 0.001 to 5 wt. % of the antioxidant is present.

3. A fluid for viscous coupling according to claim 1, wherein the anti-wear agent further comprises at least one of a sulfur-containing anti-wear agent and a zinc dithiophosphate-containing anti-wear agent, the amount of phosphorus-containing anti-wear agent to total anti-wear agent being from 5-95 wt. %, said sulfur-containing anti-wear agent being selected from the group consisting of sulfides, sulfurized oil, and thiocarbonates.

4. A fluid for viscous coupling according to claim 3, wherein 0.001 to 5 wt. % of the antioxidant is present.

5. A fluid for viscous coupling, consisting essentially of:

an organopolysiloxane having a viscosity of from 1,000 to 500,000 mm2 /s (25 C.) expressed by the formula: ##STR6## where R of said organopolysiloxane represents a hydrocarbon group have 1 to 18 carbon atoms and may be the same or different, and may be halogenated, an n represents an integer of 130 to 1,500;

up to 5 wt. % of an antioxidant based on the organopolysiloxane;

at least 0.01 to 5 wt. % of an anti-wear agent based on the organopolysiloxane, selected from the following groups: ##STR7## 0. 001 to 1.0 weight %, based on said organopolysiloxane, of at least one of a metal deactivator and a corrosion inhibitor, said metal deactivator being at least one type selected from the group consisting of dibasic acids, and monobasic acids;

said dibasic acids being selected from the group consisting of benzotriazole, benzotriazole derivative, thiadiazole, thiadiazole derivative, triazole, triazole derivative, dithiocarbamate, dithocarbamate derivative, indazole, indazole derivative, adipic acid, sebacic acid, and dodecane diacid; and

said monobasic acid being selected from the group consisting of stearic acid, oleic acid, and lauric acid,

and amine salts of these substances; and

said corrosion inhibitor being at least one type selected from the group consisting of isosterate, n-octadecylammonium stearate, duomin-T dioleate, lead naphthenate, sorbitan oleate, pentaerythrit oleate, oleyl sarcosine, alkyl succinic acid, alkenyl succinic acid and derivatives of these substances.


6. A fluid for viscous coupling according to claim 5, wherein from about 0.001 to 5 wt. % of the antioxidant is present.

7. A fluid for viscous coupling according to claim 5, wherein from about 0.001 to 5 wt. % of the antioxidant is present.

Description:

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

The present invention relates to a fluid for viscous coupling with high durability.

In recent years, organopolysiloxane oil such as dimethylpolysiloxane, methylphenylpolysiloxane, etc. have been used as the hydraulic fluid or the operating fluid for fluid coupling (also called "viscous coupling" (VC)), and the operating conditions are becoming increasingly severe.

In a viscous coupling (VC), a plurality of inner plates movably disposed on the driving shaft and a plurality of outer plates fixed on the driven shaft with predetermined spacings are combined together alternately and are accommodated in a housing, and dimethylpolysiloxane oil, which is a viscous fluid for torque transmission, is filled in it. Under such arrangement, shearing force, i.e. shear torque, is generated in said plate groups by the difference of the revolutions between the driving shaft and the driven shaft in order to transmit torque to the driven shaft.

As the fluid coupling (viscous coupling) of this type, dimethylpolysiloxane (also called dimethyl-silicone oil) with high viscosity index (VI) is used, but it is difficult to maintain stable torque transmission ability for a long time under severe operating conditions at high temperature. This is mainly due to the low thermal stability of dimethyl-silicone oil at high temperature. Because the operating conditions are becoming increasingly severe in various applications including the application of viscous coupling, it is an imminent problem to improve thermal stability of silicone oil, which constitutes the main component of dimethyl-silicone.

To prevent oxidation or gelation, antioxidants such as iron octanoate, phenylamine derivatives, ferrocene derivatives, etc. have been added to organopolysiloxane oil.

Although a certain level of the gelation preventive effect can be obtained at high temperature when these antioxidants are added, the viscosity increases when viscous coupling is continuously used.

The object of this invention is to offer a fluid for viscous coupling, which provides excellent effect for the prevention of thermal decomposition and gelation and is furnished with high stability.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

First, the fluid for viscous coupling according to the present invention is characterized in that organopolysiloxane is adopted as base oil and a phosphorus type anti-wear agent is added to it.

In the conventional type fluid for viscous coupling, the quality of antioxidants has been improved in order to prevent the thickening effect by thermal deterioration caused during the operation at high temperature. When antioxidant is added to the fluid for viscous coupling and it is actually applied on viscous coupling, viscosity is still increased.

The present inventors have considered that this problem cannot be solved simply by the improvement of the effect of antioxidants and have found that the metallic contact between disks of viscous coupling exerts a very strong influence. Namely, it appears that the fresh metal surface of the metal disk caused by metallic contact acts as a catalyst to the deterioration of organopolysiloxane and enhances the deterioration of the fluid for viscous coupling.

By adding anti-wear agent to the fluid for viscous coupling, film is formed on the fresh metal surface of metal and the catalytic effect is thus prevented. This contributes to the elimination of the thickening phenomenon of the fluid for viscous coupling.

By the fluid for viscous coupling according to the present invention, it is possible to increase the heat-resistant property of the fluid for viscous coupling and to improve its durability by adding antioxidants together with the anti-wear agent.

Secondly, the fluid for viscous coupling of this invention is characterized in that organopolysiloxane is used as base oil a phosphorus type anti-wear agent and a sulfur type anti-wear agent and/or a zinc dithiophosphate type anti-wear agent are added to it.

Phosphorus type anti-wear agent, sulfur type anti-wear agent, zinc dithiophosphate type anti-wear agent, etc. have a certain effect when each of them is added alone to the fluid for viscous coupling. According to this invention, however, phosphorus type anti-wear agent, sulfur type anti-wear agent and/or zinc dithiophosphate anti-wear agent are combined and blended together, and this gives a cumulative effect to form film on the newly appeared metal surface and to suppress catalytic action by the new metal surface, thus almost completely eliminating the thickening phenomenon of the fluid for viscous coupling. This provides the better effect compared with the case where phosphorus type anti-wear agent is used alone.

The anti-wear agents such as phosphorus type, sulfur type, zinc dithiophosphate type, etc. give an adsorption effect on the metal in a specific temperature range according to thermal stability of each substance. It appears that various friction and wear conditions occur in the viscous coupling itself during the operation and that the environmental temperature also widely differs. According to this invention, the anti-wear agents with different adsorption property are combined to cope with such conditions.

By adding antioxidant to the fluid for viscous coupling in addition to these anti-wear agents, it is possible to increase the heat-resistant property and to improve the durability of the fluid for viscous coupling.

Thirdly, the fluid for viscous coupling of this invention is characterized in that organopolysiloxane is used as a base oil and metal a deactivator and/or a corrosion inhibitor is added.

Although metal deactivator and/or corrosion inhibitor has lower solubility to the fluid for viscous coupling than the anti-wear agent, these substances can prevent the increase of viscosity of the fluid for viscous coupling when they are added in small quantity. This increases further the heat resistant property and improve the durability of the fluid for viscous coupling.

When an anti-wear agent and/or antioxidants is added to the fluid for viscous coupling, it is possible to increase the heat-resistant property and to improve the durability of the fluid for viscous coupling.

DESCRIPTION OF THE PREFERRED EMBODIMENT

Organopolysiloxane, which is the base oil of the fluid for viscous coupling according to this invention, has the following formula: ##STR1##

(In the formula, R is the same or different, or sometimes the halogenated hydrocarbon group having 1-18 carbon atoms, and n represents an integral number of 1-3000 preferably 130-1,500, more preferably 140-1,400.) The viscosity of the organopolysiloxane ranges from 1,000 to 500,000 mm 2 /s (25 C.).

R is an alkyl group such as methyl group, ethyl group, n-propyl group, i-propyl group, n-butyl group, i-butyl group, t-butyl group, n-pentyl group, neopentyl group, hexyl group, heptyl group, octyl group, decyl group and octadecyl group, an allyl group such as phenyl group or naphthyl group, a aralkyl group such as benzyl group 1-phenylethyl group, 2-phenylethyl group, an alallyl group such as o-, m-p-diphenyl group, or a halogenated hydrocarbon group such as o-, m-, p-chlorphenyl group, o-, m-, p-bromphenyl group, 3,3,3-trifluorpropyl group, 1,1,1,3,3,3-hexafluor-2-propyl group, heptafluorisopropyl group and heptafluorn-propyl group. Particularly, it is preferable to use a fluorinated hydrocarbon group having 1-8 carbon atoms except an aliphatic unsaturated group as R. Or, the mixture of methylpolysiloxane and phenylpolysiloxane may be used.

The first feature of this invention is that a phosphorus type anti-wear agent is added to organopolysiloxane as an anti-wear agent.

As the phosphorus type anti-wear agent, a compound is effective, which has at least one of the following structures (1)-(27) as general formula. In the following formulae, R may refer to hydrogen, alkyl group, aryl group or benzyl group. R may be the same or different. ##STR2##

In the following, actual compounds are given:

As the compound having the above structural formula (1), there are triaryl phosphate and the like. For example, phosphate such as benzyldiphenyl phosphate, allyldiphenylphosphate, triphenyl phosphate, tricresyl phospahte, ethyldiphenyl phosphate, tributyl phosphate, dibutyl phosphate, cresyldiphenyl phosphate, dicresylphenyl phosphate, ethylphenyldiphenyl phosphate, diethylphenylphenyl phosphate, propylphenyldiphenyl phosphate, dipropylphenylphenyl phosphate, triethylphenyl phosphate, tripropylphenyl phosphate, butylphenyldiphenyl phosphate, dibutylphenylphenyl phosphate, tributylphenyl phosphate, propyl phenyl phenyl phosphate mixture, butyl phenyl phenyl phosphate mixure, etc., or acid phosphate such as lauryl acid phosphate, stearyl acid phosphate, di-2-ethylhexyl phosphate, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (2), there is, for example, di-n-butylhexyl phosphate, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (3), there is, for example, n-butyl-n-dioctyl phosphinate, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (5), there are triaryl phosphoro-thionate and the like. For example, triphenyl phosphoro-thionate and alkylaryl phosphorothionate, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (15), there are, for example, triisopropyl phosphite and diisopropyl phosphite, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (19), there is, for example, trilauryl thiophosphite, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (22), there is, for example, hexamethyl phosphoric triamide, etc.

As the compound represented by the structural formula (24), there is, for example, dibutyl phosphoroamidate, etc.

Among these compounds, the effects are particularly conspicuous in the cases of the compounds with excellent thermal stability having the structure of triaryl phosphate or triaryl phosphoro-thionate.

It is preferable to use the phosphorus type anti-wear agent in the amount of 0.01-5 wt % to organopolysiloxane, and more preferably, 0.1-3 wt %. The above phosphorus type anti-wear agent may be used alone or in combination of two or more compounds.

The second feature of this invention is that, in addition to the phosphorus type anti-wear agent, a sulfur type anti-wear agent and/or zinc dithiophosphate type anti-wear agent is combined and added.

As the sulfur type anti-wear agent, the sulfides such as diphenylsulfide, diphenyl disulfide, dibenzyl disulfide, di-n-butyl sulfide, di-n-butyl disulfide, di-tert-butyl disulfide, di-tert-dodecyl sulfide, di-tert-dodecyl trisulfide, etc., the sulfurized oil such as sulfurized sperm oil, sulfurized dipentene, etc., or the thiocarbonates such as xanthic disulfide, etc. and zinc dithiophosphate anti-wear agent such as primary alkyl zinc dithiophosphate, secondary alkyl zinc dithiophosphate, alkyl-aryl zinc dithiophosphate, aryl zinc dithiophosphate, etc. can be used. It is preferable to use all anti-wear agents including phosphorus type anti-wear agents and sulfur type anti-wear agent and/or zinc dithiophosphate anti-wear agents to organopolysiloxane in an amount of from 0.01-5 wt %, and more preferably, in an amount of from 0.1-3 wt %. The ratio to use phosphorus type anti-wear agent to total anti-wear agents is preferably 5-95 wt %.

Instead of combining and adding phosphorus type anti-wear agent and sulfur type anti-wear agent, the compound having at least one of the following formulae such as ##STR3## as general formula, e.g. the compounds such as benzyl (di-n-pentyl phosphoryl) bisulfide, etc. may be used.

It is preferable to use the compound in an amount of from 0.01-5 wt % to organopolysiloxane, and more preferably, in an amount of from 0.1-3 wt %.

Further, the third feature of the fluid for viscous coupling of this invention is that metal deactivator and/or corrosion inhibitor is added to organopolysiloxane alone or together with the above anti-wear agents.

As the metal deactivator, benzotriazole, benzothiazole derivatives, thiadiazole, thiadiazole derivatives, triazole, triazole derivatives, dithiocarbamate, dithiocarbamate derivatives, indazole, indazole derivatives, etc. or organic carboxylic acids including dibasic acids such as adipic acid, sebacic acid, dodecane dioic acid, etc. or monobasic acids such as stearic acid, oleic acid, lauric acid, etc. or amine salts of these compounds may be used.

It is preferable to use metal deactivator in an amount of from 0.001-1.0 wt % to organopolysiloxane, and more preferably, in an amount of from 0.01-0.5 wt %. If the added quantity exceeds 1.0 wt %, precipitation increases, and this is not very desirable. If it is less than 0.001 wt %, there is no effect.

As the corrosion inhibitors, there are isostearate, n-octadecylammonium stearate, DUOMEEN-T diorate, lead naphthenate, sorbitan oleate, pentaerythrite oleate, oleyl sarcosine, alkyl succinic acid, alkenyl succinic acid, and the derivatives of these compounds. It is preferable to use these compounds in an amount of from 0.001-1.0 wt % to organopolysiloxane, and more preferably, in amount of from 0.01-0.5 wt %. When the added quantity exceeds 1.0 wt %, it is not desirable because precipitation increases. If it is less than 0.001 wt %, there is no effect.

In the fluid for viscous coupling according to the present invention, the durability can be increased by adding antioxidant in case the above phosphorus anti-wear agent is added alone, or in case phosphorus type anti-wear agent and sulfur type anti-wear agent and/or zinc dithiophosphate type anti-wear agent are combined and added, and further in case metal deactivator and/or corrosion inhibitor is added alone or together with the above anti-wear agents.

As the antioxidants, amine type antioxidants such as dioctyldiphenylamine, phenyl-α-naphthylamine, alkyldiphenylamine, N-nitrosodiphenylamine, phenothiazine, N,N'-dinaphthyl-p-phenylenediamine, acridine, N-methylphenothiazine, N-ethylphenothiazine, dipyrizylamine, diphenylamine, etc., the phenol type antioxidants such as 2,6-di-t-butylparacresol, 4,4'-methylenebis (2,6-di-t-butylphenol), 2,6-di-t-butylphenol, etc., or the organic metal compound type antioxidants such as organic iron salt including iron octoate, ferrocene, iron naphthoate, etc., organic cerium salt including cerium naphthoate, cerium toluate, etc. and organic zirconium salt including zirconium octoate, etc. may be used. The above antioxidants may be used alone or in combination of two or more compounds to provide cumulative effects.

It is preferable to use the above antioxidants in an amount of from 0.001-5 wt % to organopolysiloxane, and more preferably, in an amount of from 0.01-2 wt %.

In the following, the present invention will be described in detail in connection with the embodiments, while the invention is not limited to these embodiments.

EXAMPLE 1

To dimethylsilicone (viscosity 50000 mm 2 /s, 25 C.), diphenylamine was added in an amount of from 1.0 wt %, and tricresyl phosphate was added by the ratio shown below as the phosphorus type anti-wear agent. The fluid for viscous coupling thus prepared was filled into a viscous coupling having 111 disks at 25 C. and with the filling degree of 85 vol %. The rotating speed difference was 50 rpm.

The viscous coupling was placed in a bath kept at constant temperature of 130 C. and was operated for 50 hours.

After the operation, viscosity change and torque change were measured. The results are given in the table below. In the table, the results of the case where phosphorus type anti-wear agent was not added are also shown.

To evaluate the heat-resistant property of anti-wear agent a, hot tube coking test was performed, and the temperature, at which the specimen was gelated or blocked by coking the glass tube, was measured at every 10 C. The lowest temperature is also shown in the table below.
______________________________________
Added quantity of anti-wear Viscosity Torque Blocking agent (wt %) change (%) change (%) temperature (C.)
______________________________________

2.0 -5 -5 330
1.0 +1 0 330
0.5 +5 +5 330
0 Measurement
Measurement
330
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Unread 07-22-2010, 12:31 PM   #20
BioTex
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I'm outta here!

Good luck with your endeavors!
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Unread 07-22-2010, 01:13 PM   #21
Darthteddy
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In you research tho have you found enough information on the closed knuckle grease to compile a similar "background" on it to compare to the dow product?
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Unread 07-22-2010, 03:33 PM   #22
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All cleaned up and this thread is still a lot of blah, blah, blah and links to other sites with more of the same.

There's one single post in this thread that tells you where to get what's supposed to be the correct lube, and if you don't look hard you'll blow right past it.

Too bad the OP couldn't just cut to the chase without all of the sob stories and say here's what you're supposed to use and here's where you can get it. Sure could have avoided a lot of grief.
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Unread 07-22-2010, 05:34 PM   #23
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Dow goop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthteddy View Post
In you research tho have you found enough information on the closed knuckle grease to compile a similar "background" on it to compare to the dow product?
Just learned about this Dow product,

Dont know anything about it, cant understand it way to complicated,

I am a simple grease monkey the guys who invent this stuff got A in chemistry I got a D barely passed
But what I do know is that the automobile manufacures did not wish me to know about this stuff as a grease monkey

If you wish to learn about this form of grease, type in Locomotive Traction Gear Lubes, in 1985 the Texaco oil company together with the Rail Road tested this form of grease, complete with all the Data, weld points, tested it with 15% water in it, compared it with lithium greases, so on and so on

As far as this Dow stuff, it is interesting that they point out the "Thickening phenomonem" that occurs with the fluid in these viscous couplers, grease is crazy weird stuff and even the inventors dont have answers for all of it

Last edited by backwoodsgoop; 07-22-2010 at 08:41 PM..
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Unread 07-22-2010, 08:54 PM   #24
backwoodsgoop
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I wish it where that easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
All cleaned up and this thread is still a lot of blah, blah, blah and links to other sites with more of the same.

There's one single post in this thread that tells you where to get what's supposed to be the correct lube, and if you don't look hard you'll blow right past it.

Too bad the OP couldn't just cut to the chase without all of the sob stories and say here's what you're supposed to use and here's where you can get it. Sure could have avoided a lot of grief.
I have tried that approach , it simply is not that easy, to many misconceptions on this subject, one of the most elemental component of the vehicle, is the most mis-understood, I speak from my personal experiance of working in the auto trade for over 20 years, just a bit over a year ago I knew zip about grease,

As we speak some guy is cooling his heals in a China Jail for attempting to smuggle out grease and or oil secrets, from that country very serious stuff, in other parts of the world, less time fixing stuff more productive, very simple,
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Unread 07-23-2010, 08:07 AM   #25
CSP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backwoodsgoop View Post
I have tried that approach , it simply is not that easy, to many misconceptions on this subject, one of the most elemental component of the vehicle, is the most mis-understood, I speak from my personal experiance of working in the auto trade for over 20 years, just a bit over a year ago I knew zip about grease
So what is your point of this? Are you trying to show people where to get the right grease or go off on tangents on oddball stories about grease?

Seriously, what is your point because you're all over the place here?
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Unread 07-23-2010, 10:32 AM   #26
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Www

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
So what is your point of this? Are you trying to show people where to get the right grease or go off on tangents on oddball stories about grease?

Seriously, what is your point because you're all over the place here?
Ok CSP My story hasnt varied a bit since I began introducing this information, the nature of this subject causes the odd ball grease storys,

There is very little information about this form of grease so it is required that I derive information from any source available ie the Rail Road, the only real world data on the subject,
But if you understand Grease, you will know that it doesnt care where it it used it simply reduces friction, in lawn mowers, Jeeps, Toyota, locomotives,you name it

So this form of grease shows up in odd places other than the enclosed steering knuckle so odd ball grease storys it is, it is found in commercial grade food equipment,( Hobart dough mixers), viscous couplers, trains, Rockwell machine equip, heavy equipment, earth movers, and so on
I guess thats what sums it up preety good
Commercial Grade,
Big difference between a mixer from wal mart and one from Hobart

And I have established beyond any doubt that this WWW is being used to spread misinformation on the subject in some circles,
World Wide Web of deception

I am using it to introduce the correct information.

The internet is a good source of info, however it is also some BS in it as well
Heres how it breaks down over 1/3 of the entire internet is porn

The other 1/3 is Bull **** and 1/3 good info,
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Unread 07-23-2010, 10:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backwoodsgoop View Post
Ok CSP My story hasnt varied a bit since I began introducing this information, the nature of this subject causes the odd ball grease storys
Yet I and many others still can't figure out what you're trying to say.

I'll just have to guess that what's on your mind and what you type are two different things and leave it at that.

You are wandering all over the place and it sure is hard to put your points together to draw any sort of a line, let alone a straight line.

I'm done with this. It doesn't have anything to do with my equipment anyhow.
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Unread 07-23-2010, 01:22 PM   #28
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very well

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
Yet I and many others still can't figure out what you're trying to say.

I'll just have to guess that what's on your mind and what you type are two different things and leave it at that.

You are wandering all over the place and it sure is hard to put your points together to draw any sort of a line, let alone a straight line.

I'm done with this. It doesn't have anything to do with my equipment anyhow.
I guess I dont get where your coming from either, I am talking about a form of grease used by Jeep in the closed steering knuckle that the aftermarket has little or no
knowledge of, and pointing out what other applications it is used in,

Pretty basic really, I think, very simple, in other posts on other forums I am called a liar, moron and a idiot, and should be wearing a tin foil hat, these posts as well as intentional mis leading info confuse and clutter up the situation, I am thankful Jeep forums moderators cleaned this one up,

I will shoot as straight as possible,. there is a form of grease used in this application (closed knuckle) that is used by manufactures that is incompatible with any other form of grease (bad stuff will happen)

This information is not common knowledge intentionally, even the old books will give conflicting information. Vague terms, incorrect terms, and so on

Case in point, aside from Jeep who tells you the base and the grade but leaves you hanging on the amount, International has the best overall information, in a round about way
38OZ of a viscous chassis lubricant, if you where to go ask a grease specialist, I would like a lube that has syrup or glue like qualities (websters definition of the word "viscous") he would hand you a #0 sodium based grease,
Now Ford's definition is 1/2 pint of the proper lube, (for the same thing,) 1/2pint is 1 cup quite a stretch from the more accurate spec by International
38oz which is 1/2 gallon

see the BS??

I posted this info earlier, BS is hard to spot, unless you know something is up, Auto mobile manufactures did not want folks to know about this stuff, call it a conspiracy or whatever, but it is obvious to me that all the BS on the subject from preety much everybody except Jeep and International ,is intentional,
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Unread 07-23-2010, 02:06 PM   #29
CSP
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So here's an idea:

Tell us what should be used and how much. Nothing but the facts relevant to what to use instead of telling us about all of the so-called misleading information and vague amounts to use. Complaining about what you know or don't know isn't providing valuable information or helping the situation, as you see it.

I can see where the tin-foil hat comments come from.

If we all complained about the bad info on the web without providing the correct, alternative info, the end result is just a bunch of whiners and nobody gets the right help. These forums would be nothing more than a circle jerk.
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Unread 07-23-2010, 05:51 PM   #30
backwoodsgoop
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very Good idea,

I have a idea as well, re read this thread, CSP all the info you requested is in here,
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