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backwoodsgoop 07-18-2010 06:07 PM

Closed knuckle grease
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's a scan from a old Jeep book, form #SM 1002- R6 page number 9 on section B-3


The only book I have read that describes the proprietary grease to use in the enclosed steering knuckle,
It also states the same grade of grease to use in documents from the war department from the early 40,s
All other books only beat around the bush and some times give conflicting info,(Dodge)
and in more modern times beating around the bush turned into downright deception, (Toyota)

Thanks Frank

backwoodsgoop 07-18-2010 06:34 PM

Editors
 
Backwoods Goop - Page 6 - Rising Sun Member Forums

Heres a link with a line of discussion about this lube with the mechanical editor, for the TLCA, Robbie, He wants me to talk to the clowns at Toyota University, well the way was I see it the BS rolls down hill and I am better off down at the bottom where it is not so thick.

backwoodsgoop 07-18-2010 08:47 PM

nasty old school Jeep goop in wheel bearings
 
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...gInstalled.jpg

backwoodsgoop 07-18-2010 08:51 PM

filling the knuckle and adheasion demonstation of the nasty old Jeep goop
 
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...FillingHub.jpg

backwoodsgoop 07-19-2010 11:06 PM

steering knuckle lube ??? - Jeep-CJ Forums

Darthteddy 07-19-2010 11:22 PM

This stuff reminds me of the Mystery grease used in the Vicious Coupler of a 249 Transfercase. Makes me wonder If you could rebuild the VC when it goes bad if you could get your hands on this stuff....

backwoodsgoop 07-20-2010 10:54 AM

cool some body else knows the mystery grease
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darthteddy (Post 9816917)
This stuff reminds me of the Mystery grease used in the Vicious Coupler of a 249 Transfercase. Makes me wonder If you could rebuild the VC when it goes bad if you could get your hands on this stuff....

Short Fiber grease
A year ago I set out to find what the semi-fluid lube in the closed steering knuckle of a 1988 Toyota land cruiser, It all started when I called the local dealership and asked what this was. Well I could tell I was not getting the straight scoop from the service manager, and what was indicated to use in the FSM didnt add up. It states to use a molybedendum disulphate lithium chassis grease #2, this term as I found out thru a oil and grease supplier is a rather vague term, This additive is found in all sorts of lube anything from oil or grease of any base and in its pure form used as a dry lube,

I knew something of this sort had to exist since I had seen this form of lube in a viscous coupler but had no idea what it was only that its characteristics where not what you normally encounter with oil, or grease

So I began reading in a old Motors manual to see what the manufactures used in the 60,and 70's. Ford stated to use 1/2 pint of the "proper lube" International indicated to use a viscous chassis lube, Dodge's term was "short fiber wheel bearing lube" all these terms still left me wondering what in the world this lube was, but did conclude that this was a fluid lube from these terms,

Then knowing that this design can be traced back to the WWII era vehicles I acquired a old Jeep book, In it I found the answer, sodium based lubes where used at the factory for initial fill, a #1 or #0 sodium based grease depending on temp.
In the #0 form this is a semi fluid lube, so I began trying to find some of this lube it took a while but I did find some the only way it I was able to get it is in bulk so I saved my pennies and ordered some and sure enough this was the stuff,
In my research I found that Dodge,s term was the best clue as well ''short fiber" is a term associated with the soda soap greases which is another term for sodium based

In reading up on this base of lube it is used in area,s that are prone to leakage and where high service intervals can be obtained, and in this application a slight amount of discharge is desirable to coat the exposed steel ball with a film of lube to prevent rusting and pitting,

Some how this form of lube has made its way down thru history and winds up in odd places, The only reason I have seen that it is no longer widely used is that it is incompatible with any other base of grease, seldom seen and rarely used is how I have seen it described, and I may add even more so misidentified, This form of grease is mostly misdiagnosed as axle seal failure in the closed knuckle application, which is understandable it has that appearance, the only reason that I thought twice about it is because I had seen it in a application where cross contamination could be ruled out. Thanks Frank
Tranny Frank is offline Reply With Quote

Darthteddy 07-20-2010 02:27 PM

Do you by any chance still have any of the bulk amount you purchased? Id love to get my hands on a pint or two and experiment with rebuilding vicious couplers out of 249s. Could be a cheap alternative to the outrageously expensive dealer one or swapping out transfer cases.

A lot of people think this is nonsense but I'm finding it pretty educational.

Darthteddy 07-20-2010 02:32 PM

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VCoil.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...5/58/VCoil.jpg

Weird....

backwoodsgoop 07-20-2010 06:18 PM

Sure,you can get if from these folks
 
Jeep Closed Steering Knuckle Axle Repair

BioTex 07-21-2010 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backwoodsgoop (Post 9821829)
OK will do,

Thank you!

Now!
I have four vehicles with closed knuckles. What grease do you recommend I use to lube these? Where do I purchase it, how much does it cost, and why is it better?
This is the way to approach getting your point across on this forum. Forget about other brands of vehicles for now. Since this is a CJ forum, I recommend you simply show guys that there is a better product out there and why, and people will listen. You obviously have spent a long time researching greases, so perhaps you have something useful to share in this regard.

I personally don't need to know the details of your crusade, but want the technical reasons why I should switch to a new grease.

Edit: I missed the Novak link posted above. $68/gal. is kind of steep. It would take a long time to go through a gallon. Do you know a place that sells smaller cans? This is new information to me about this grease. I have been using the wrong stuff all these years.

backwoodsgoop 07-21-2010 11:52 AM

Ok
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BioTex (Post 9824199)
Thank you!

Now!
I have four vehicles with closed knuckles. What grease do you recommend I use to lube these? Where do I purchase it, how much does it cost, and why is it better?
This is the way to approach getting your point across on this forum. Forget about other brands of vehicles for now. Since this is a CJ forum, I recommend you simply show guys that there is a better product out there and why, and people will listen. You obviously have spent a long time researching greases, so perhaps you have something useful to share in this regard.

I personally don't need to know the details of your crusade, but want the technical reasons why I should switch to a new grease.

Edit: I missed the Novak link posted above. $68/gal. is kind of steep. It would take a long time to go through a gallon. Do you know a place that sells smaller cans? This is new information to me about this grease. I have been using the wrong stuff all these years.

Very good.
Technical reasons,
About the best I can say is this type of grease, It was what Jeep used for initial factory fill,
As far as the amount, Jeep specifies "as required" now I have learned from my research that guys back in the day would tip the rig up on its side to fill the knuckle, and get more in there than the static halfway point,
This is a good idea for a couple of reasons
#1 This insures the entire seal (wiper) stays wet,
#2 This also insures that the upper trunnion bearing will be splashed lubed when operating in 4x4 mode,
This is why Toyota moved the fill plug on the replicated Dana axle to above the 3/4 way mark and gotta hand it to them good idea,
So the little Jeep axle would use a bit over a 1/2 of a gallon I would imagine, and be aware that the wheel bearings are filled with this lube as well

One of the only manufactures that spec a amount is International which is 32 oz per side,
Ford indicates 1/2 pint per side, but they have two different sizes of axle a 8 bolt design or a 12,(wiper seal) the larger would use more lube,
So that is the rational behind the amount, and sure a bit steep but the longevity that can be obtained balances that out, purchasing u-joints, bearings and seals adds up in a hurry,

So This is what I have learned, there are 3 things to do with this axle

#1 Once it is filled, leave it alone, do not introduce any other form of lube,

#2 Operate 4x4 mode occasionally to lube the upper bearing

#3 When driving in wet and freezing conditions when parking the vehicle rotate the steering wheel lock to lock,.

Also be sure to clean the entire assembly out very well, if a different form of grease was used, and of course squirt a bit in there now and again once a year would be enough, or every other time its in for a oil change,
So that is why when you read the patents for these things they are considered "practically maintanace free"

Also with this semi fluid grease inside the knuckle a viscous seal of oil forms around the wiper seal and this assembly is not vented to the atmosphere so while in operation a slight amount of pressure will build ensuring nothing will get inside. A ideal environment for The wheel Joint and all other bearings,

These axles can be air tested for integrity a small amount of air pressure held for a period of time. I do not know the details for how much or how long. Only that it was done when this axle was used to get guys places to kill people,

backwoodsgoop 07-21-2010 03:58 PM

Jeep Goop
 
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...529101057a.jpg
Viscous Couplers
While Different brands of grease will have different colors, the characteristics of this lube where identical to the semi fluid lube in a viscous coupler, while I have read that they use a silicon based lube, and there seems to be limited technical information on these components,

Heres my take on these little gizmos.
Basically a whole bunch of thin steel plates, that are splined to the outside of the hub or the inside, and alternate every other one, inside spline or out, the inside of the little gizmo is hooked to the rear drive line and the outside to the frt, the power transfer is primarily to the primary drive wheels when these wheels slip friction builds up in this coupler and locks up sending power to the other drive wheel,

There is a certain amount of break away torque when checking these, If I remember correctly 25 ft lbs of force or drag if you will, between the outside and inside of the hub (for Jeep)

as far as the lube is concerned it is only to provide lubracation, Heat build up actually applies this clutch if you will, Is that about right??

I have never rebuilt on, just purchased good used ones, although I think it would be possible to overhaul these thing, get them cleaned up the Drag or break away torque set and off you go, may have to get a line on new steel plates, or figer a way to shim them up,

On a side note these can be set up for primary drive wheels in the Frt, and power sent to the rear when frt wheels slip.
This is how it is set up in a AWD Carapile (dodge) although when a co worker and I where trying to track down a problem we discovered that it was mechanicly incapable of AWD operation in Reverse, due to a one way roller clutch in the rear diff assembly. Kinda weird

Comanche_ 07-21-2010 04:06 PM

So, this is the stuff that i would need to use on the knuckles on my 63 fj40?

backwoodsgoop 07-21-2010 06:19 PM

Yes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Comanche_ (Post 9827156)
So, this is the stuff that i would need to use on the knuckles on my 63 fj40?

Yes, from all that I have compiled, this form of lube is what the all of the manufactures fill them up with,

While Dana publications indicate to use a 140w oil they also make a note to follow individual manufacture specifications,


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