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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:00 PM   #5206
lucdog
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Dave, I'm just not following. The reason for moving the pivot point is for more movement of the TOB so it makes contact with the fingers of the pressure plate. I understand that. The problem I'm seeing is not enough room on the transmission bearing retainer, for the TOB to move any closer to the clutch.

Jim, a spacer might work, except for a way to keep it attached to the TOB. I couldn't be welded, that would boil all the grease out of the TOB, I wouldn't be Comfortable JB welding it on.

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1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:07 PM   #5207
243
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To all, this is a simple lever, why complicate the mechanism by introducing washers or spacers?

Post a picture of the backside of the fork with the TOB installed, because I am not seeing what you are.

It looks like the TOB is fully forward in this photo, did the bearing clips on the retainer come off the fork?

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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:22 PM   #5208
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I bet that putting the fork in a press and smashing the pocket flatter by 1/4" would move the other end of the fork close to 1", that may eliminate the need to relocate the pocket or use an adjustable ball stud.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:31 PM   #5209
lucdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 243
Post a picture of the backside of the fork with the TOB installed, because I am not seeing what you are.

It looks like the TOB is fully forward in this photo, did the bearing clips on the retainer come off the fork?


image-223888747.jpg



image-4089112219.jpg

This is the Orientation.

image-2618802512.jpg

Next picture is where the arm makes enough contact with the bell housing, where I feel enough pressure is put on the bell to cause the crack.

image-219572509.jpg

Also at this point the TOB isn't (Apparently) putting enough pressure on the pressure plate to Disengage the clutch.
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:41 PM   #5210
243
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I went to Novak's website and they list alternate TOB's with different lengths, I picked the 15/16" (1377C) for chits and giggles and it came up on Autozone's website. I am not sure if the part numbers are correct for Scott's application but it's worth talking about.

Same for 1697C at O'Reilly.

-A- Length-B- Overall LengthPart Numbers.625"1.185"N4008 -or- 614083 ($30) .750"1.216" N4068 -or- 614038 ($32) 1.235"N4109 -or- 614109 ($38) 21/32"1.246" N3068, N4172-or- 614018 ($32) 1.257"N1488 -or- CC1705C ($20) 1.410"N1451 -or- G1697C ($38) 15/16"1.609" 1377C ($26) 1-1/16"1.699" N1466 -or- G1625C ($53) 1.196"1.775"N1086 -or- 614037 ($36) 1.310"1.953"1697C ($26)

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...entifier=47647

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1330&ppt=C0015





.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:47 PM   #5211
lucdog
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When looking at these 2 pictures, the first one, a wear pattern is seen.

image-1142925148.jpg

This is were the TOB would be.

image-3988015157.jpg

The arm, at this point isn't contacting the bell housing.
Between the face of the TOB, and the end of the bearing retainer it's 1/2". Wether or not that's enough, I don't know. All I have to go by is the reported bell crack, and where the arm need to be to cause one. At which point, the clutch is disengaging.

Bill
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 02:53 PM   #5212
243
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Nice coffee mug Bill
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Unread 08-07-2013, 03:01 PM   #5213
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Dave, the ID needs to match as well.

This is the arm and bearing not connected .

image-1724142007.jpg

Notice the pins on the arm, and the hole on the TOB. I imagine these are to help keep the arm and TOB together.

This is the ID of the TOB.

image-933404938.jpg

So you can see why it's important to keep the TOB on the retainer ((tranny)

If the ID were like this, there wouldn't be a problem.

image-3686211084.jpg

B
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 03:06 PM   #5214
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This points back to relocating the ball stud pocket to the location needed in both directions.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #5215
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image-3794225748.jpg



image-4162285446.jpg

If I were going to move the arm out, I would work only with the arm itself. I don't think the stand off ball area is strong enough. There are side pressures as well as pushing straight back.

Attachment 654864





image-1581928029.jpg

I'm thinking cut the area from another arm, and weld it on top.



image-504444388.jpg



image-1019661328.jpg

The hole/slot in the arm is Elongated to allow for in and out movement as the TOB slides back and forth.

B
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 03:43 PM   #5216
lucdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 243
I bet that putting the fork in a press and smashing the pocket flatter by 1/4" would move the other end of the fork close to 1", that may eliminate the need to relocate the pocket or use an adjustable ball stud.
This is real good possibility! I would try it , don't want to ruin my arm.

:-) bought the cup for a $.25 at a garage sale.


image-2293612515.jpg

This is how pissed everyone should look....


image-4007390539.jpg
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 04:24 PM   #5217
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WOW, Fellas! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!! I don't know what to say to all of you. Please keep in mind that this is my first time getting into all of this, regardless of the fact I have done a frame-off. The mechanical aspects of Clay's Jeep were ignored (which I am now paying for), and it's VERY possible I have not done justice in my description of the problem. I have described it the best way that I understand it... up to now. I CAN tell you for fact that I made the call to Novak, and they DO, normally, carry the part I need, but they don't have it in stock at this time. I CAN tell you that I spoke to Auto Zone (my boss there- he is sharp), and he explained that AZ did NOT carry the part I needed. McLeod and Summit didn't have it, and neither did Advanced Adapters. This was all in terms of a longer TOB. Had I understood more, or had I known what to look for, or had I been sharper overall, I could possibly have come up with options rather than sending the Jeep to the shop. Dave's ideas make perfect sense to me. I just didn't think of any of it. With the breakage of the bellhousing flange I was in such a total funk I didn't even want to place my hands on the Jeep to push it back in the shop. I would have sold it for beans right there! I just wanted it fixed, and I didn't want to be the one to do it, thinking it would take hours and hours, ignoring my wife and kids, sweating in the shop after doing 9 hours at work, and further delaying the pay-off day. So I loaded it up and sent it away like the bastard child that it is. For all we have accomplished, I still don't fully understand how the clutch works. Bill called me at work today, and I wasn't able to concentrate on our call, and I had to hang up. I need a lesson on clutch operation. I understand the concept, but I don't know how all the parts interact. Bill's question of the TOB moving past the retainer is the first I've heard of this. With me looking at the clutch fork, and with me wriggling it back and forth while laying under the Jeep, I can say the TOB did not move at all, almost like there WAS NO pivot ball in place. But it was in place. Clay made a longer rod to take up that slop that suddenly appeared, and that's when the fork hit the bellhousing.

Warren found an adjustable ball stud. He will install it tomorrow. The bellhousing and ball stud tower will be TIG welded and gusseted. I don't see where the TOB is going to move out of its normal place with this method. This will simply move the fork closer to the bellcrank, allowing a stock-length rod and normal fork travel. Likely, the SAME result had I thought more about it and modified the pivot pocket on the fork.

More learning curve for me, and something to add to my eventual 4.0 swap thread that I plan to create.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 04:36 PM   #5218
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Matt- Our build has always been about doing the necessary work with the least possible expense. My labor is free, and I don't mind labor. It's also a concept that I want my children to learn. Anything worth having is worth working for. I know you already know that, so no criticism intended. That's just where I am and the lessons I am trying to teach. Through all of this there has been PLENTY of challenge and trial. It is my responsibility to keep a good frame of mind and attitude as an example to my boys. Sometimes that is very hard! The Hesco kit... here are my thoughts on Hesco. I have no idea about the company. I have no idea about the quality of their parts. Their CPS adapter is possibly worth every penny they ask. But it is over $300, and I can give a LOT of labor for $300. Since we had the bellhousing we elected to modify it. We COULD have sent it to Novak and had them modify it, and there wouldn't have been any guessing or stress. But overcoming adversity and obstacles is another important lesson for my kids. Clay modified the bellhousing on his own. And it worked! He had plenty of frustration, but he saw it through, and now he has a running engine. That is his reward. His first time, and with determination, he was successful. For thos Jeepers who simply buy what they need, well... kudos to them. Sometimes I wish I was in that position. But I also know that $300 will buy a truckload of mac-n-cheez! So the cost is too high for me, and I don't think the position of the CPS is a good one for wheeling. It is subject to debris and mud getting into that area. Hence, the REAL reason why we did our own work.
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Unread 08-07-2013, 04:37 PM   #5219
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Sorry about the phone call, Dave. Me and the boys were playing a match of Ghost Recon. We don't get to do that much anymore...
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Unread 08-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #5220
lucdog
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What you said about the adjustable ball stud is correct, It will allow for more travel of the arm, and because the ball acts as a fulcrum, the TOB will move further as well.

For every action, there is a equal and opposite reaction.

All I did was raise the fulcrum.

image-323988890.jpg



image-1891943976.jpg



image-4260272508.jpg

The idea of raising the fulcrum isn't for more travel of the arm, it's to move the TOB towards the pressure plate fingers. You did say the flywheel is 1/2" thinner, that means the clutch is 1/2" further away from the TOB .

The mechanicals will only allow for so much movement of the parts, ie; bellcrank, pedal assembly.

This is why I'm concerned about the TOB coming off the bearing retainer, like in the pictures.
Bill
__________________
1957 WILLYS pickup, needs work.
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac trail Jeep.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7 pretty weekend and sometimes to work Driver in the summer, My first rebuild, if the Q-trac and 5 are broke, this one is the one to take. its just as capable as the other 2, except nice paint.
1984 Grand Wagoneer, 1 ton axles, great 360/727, and a big a$& tree fell on it .
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ conversion.
2005 TJ Rubicon.
2011 Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4, Mrs. LUCDOG's DD.
Lots of parts not for sale, i'm a hoarder.
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