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Unread 07-28-2010, 12:23 PM   #166
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Great build... it's giving me idea's. I hope you get the frame straightened out because it looks great.

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Unread 07-28-2010, 07:54 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1611 View Post
Scott have you determined if both frame rails are bent or just one? You also mentioned the po had welded a new crossmember in too. It sounds like that needs to be cut lose and some straightening done then re weld it. Regardless of where the frame is bent it's not much. I think if it were mine I'd do it myself. If one rail is the problem you would need to find a way to stabilize it and move the other to the correct place. I think it could be done and it would save you some money. I have a feeling most everybody that has a frame machine is going to charge you a good bit.

And you haven't inhaled too many paint fumes.
AJ suggested chaining it to a post/tree, etc, and pulling the one side over. However, to be more specific, AJ told me to wait until he could come over with his plumb-bobs and take measurements. THEN, if necessary, we could chain it up and straighten (one of the many talents he has... used to have a frame shop!). He said Jeep, in many cases, would be inconsistent by 1/4 inch from the factory. He said I could be off by 1/2" and still be within spec. I Googled info about straightening a CJ5 frame, and I came up with many different posts relating to the problem. According to virtually every article or post I read, they stated the same comment that AJ made... it could be off and still be in spec. Some individuals elected to not make the repair, but to go on with their build. I think I could cut the middle of the two braces at the rear of my frame (rear crossmember/bumber is gone), spread it to 32.5", and weld a new piece of steel back into the braces. Then, at least, the springs and shackles would be straight/plumb.

PS- Found another frame shop. I Plan to stop off on Friday and talk to the guy.
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Unread 07-28-2010, 08:01 PM   #168
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Great build... it's giving me idea's. I hope you get the frame straightened out because it looks great.
I appreciate your kind words. The frame has been particularly painful because we had to do it twice. I think it looks great too, and I am so ready to bolt something up. I think God is testing me!! I hope there is something here that you can find useful. Be sure and check out 243, COIZ, and Exposed for detailed builds with great pics. There are also several others that are pretty much starting that should be very good. Post pics of your build... we love them.
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Unread 07-29-2010, 12:57 PM   #169
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I kinda figured AJ would have some thoughts on fixing the frame just from what you've been telling us about him. I think you guys will be able to get it straight without too much trouble. If one rail is straight make sure you stabilize that and adjust the one that isn't. As has been said earlier, it does look good now that it's painted so just take your time and get it the way you want it. An old tool maker friend of mine always used to tell me that "speed kills". He so know what he was talking about too!!
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Unread 07-29-2010, 04:28 PM   #170
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These builds are giving me so much inspiration for my build.... I think I'm going to start on rebuilding the frame/axles/engine now before working on the tub.
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Unread 07-29-2010, 05:04 PM   #171
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Skerr, my dad being raised on a farm and then becoming a pipe fitter/welder for some 30 years made him pretty smart... I can only hope one day to have some of his smarts.. Anyway, on the farm he has a I-Beam about 8"x12" x 12' long he uses to straighten stuff. Some chains, comealongs, couple pieces of pipe, guy know knows he is doing can straighten that frame without much problem..... I have seen my dad straighten stuff I would not have thought possible with just old fashion know how.... Good luck on getting it done....
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Unread 07-29-2010, 05:41 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
Skerr, my dad being raised on a farm and then becoming a pipe fitter/welder for some 30 years made him pretty smart... I can only hope one day to have some of his smarts.. Anyway, on the farm he has a I-Beam about 8"x12" x 12' long he uses to straighten stuff. Some chains, comealongs, couple pieces of pipe, guy know knows he is doing can straighten that frame without much problem..... I have seen my dad straighten stuff I would not have thought possible with just old fashion know how.... Good luck on getting it done....
My Dad was in auto body/frame repair and refinishing most of his life, and he worked from home for a while years ago. . . We had these 3 trees in the yard that were the PERFECT distance apart to park a car between them both ways, and he'd use chains and come-alongs to straighten a frame with those trees just as good as a frame machine could back then. I was always amazed at how good the cars looked after he was done with them, using nothing more than a 120 gallon air compressor, a few air tools, straightening the frame using chains and trees (he actually used an old beater 360 Big Block CJ7 on more than one occasion, then used the tree for tweaking to get it perfect)
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Unread 07-31-2010, 12:58 PM   #173
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I thought I would share this tidbit of information. This is not necessarily my view, but I thought you would find it interesting. I DO believe it is possible to have too much information! Trying to dig out the "one thing" that works is futile, in many cases. It has been shown, over and over, that there is more than one way to skin a cat. So don't get anxious over the fact that "this guy" did it "this way". On the other hand, I wonder how many guys have finished their build only to have a finish begin to rust or flake off??

I found another frame shop... recommended by a buddy at work. A real "hole-in-the-wall" shop, but a great guy! Our conversation ranged over many things! The CJ5 was only a part of our discussion. He paints cars, straightens frames, and he sprays bedliner materials. I told him what I had and what I suspected had happened to the frame... bumped from behind on the left side. He told me he charged $50 per hour and I could expect between $100 and $150. But he told me some things to try at home first... how to measure, how to remove the "diamond" shape, if I had one. To note, he told me that it is very common for Jeep, Ford, Chevy to be "off" with the frames right out of the fcatory (same thing AJ basically said). He told me he has seen Ford trucks with as much as 1" difference in frame rails... he said it's normal and that I may not have anything to worry about. So after I do the things he suggested I will know better whether I need to haul it to him. I asked him about the bedliners that he sprays. He sprays something called Sims (or something like that) and Raptor. I got excited about the Raptor as I consider it a good product, although I have never used it (just from posts of JF guys). He thinks it is overrated! WHAT?? He said that applying it to a Jeep floor was a good idea, BUT he said that you HAVE TO BE SURE TO REMOVE ALL RUST before applying. Otherwise, it will continue to rust underneath the coating. He will actually cut out any metal with any amount of surface rust and/or pitting before applying a bedliner material. He said the bedliner material needs to go directly over the metal, and not over a painted surface. He said it WILL NOT STICK. If you apply over a painted surface, he said to scuff with at least 80 grit but that you are better off to remove the paint completely. He thinks applying to a truck bed is a waste of time and money!! Because things in the back will continue to slide around... he says get a rubber mat instead. Regarding frame prep and paint... I told him about my fiasco and how we finished it with lacquer primer. He stated that I SHOULD NOT USE LACQUER PRIMER! WHAAAAAAAAAT!?!?!? He asked me if I have ever seen where the paint has cracked on cars from the 80s and 90s? I said "Yes", my wife's Astro van has cracked paint. He said that is because they used lacquer primer. Lacquer primer will allow moisture to get in over time, hence the cracking. The way to prep and prime now, according to him, is to use a frame metal primer... a two-part material (NAPA) that mixes at a 1:1 ratio. After that, THEN you apply an automotive primer, then you paint. I told him AJ believes in lacquer primer... he said that that is definitely "Old School"... not AJs fault, it was just how it was done in his day! This is all just Food for Thought and a different perspective. So take it with a grain of salt. In the meantime, I am waiting for Morris to send me new bushings to replace the ones that I ruined while installing the front springs (did I tell Y'all about that one??)! Once they get here I can get measurements.

Hope everybody is having a great day! It is starting to storm here (YAY- we need it).

Sorry about the long post, but I was hunting for something to do!
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Unread 07-31-2010, 01:19 PM   #174
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Hey Scott,

Somebody on JF or possibly JU spent quite a bit of time tweaking their CJ frame to be dead on, he highlighted many of the same points AJ and the frame guy have said regarding factory frames being off. I have no idea what build it s but it may be worth a post on the board to locate the member.

I didn't even check my frame, I am not planning to now
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Unread 07-31-2010, 02:04 PM   #175
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Sooooo...............tirrrrrrrrred................ ....must....take...nnaaaaaaaaaappppppp!!!!!
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Unread 07-31-2010, 04:11 PM   #176
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...He thinks applying to a truck bed is a waste of time and money!! Because things in the back will continue to slide around... he says get a rubber mat instead.
I fully agree. If you look at the evolution of truck bed protection, you have phases:

1) rubber mat
2) plastic liner
3) spray/roll on products.

I have always thought of the spray on/roll on products as a way to cover up a damaged bed quickly. I cringe when I see bedliner applied to a brand new vehicle.

I used a quality, $150 rubber may for 17 years in my Chevy and have no regrets. Rubber mats provide padding so you can throw in heavy stuff like lumber without worrying about dents. They also keep things from sliding around, and they give some level of protection to the stuff you're setting on them like furniture or metal parts. When the mat gets dirty, just take it out and scrub with soap and water. Wash out the bed once a year and you're good to go. If you park outside, just clean the leaves out from near the drain holes in the bed and things stay clean and rust-free.

When my wife got her F150, I reccomended she get a rubber mat so I'm glad she did.
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Unread 07-31-2010, 06:10 PM   #177
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I agree with you, Ken. I used rubber 1-pc mats in the back of my farm trucks for over 20 years. It didn't cause any rust and kept things from sliding around. My current truck has the plastic bedliner, but it came that way. It gets brittle and the screws break through over time. But I DO like the LOOKS of the spray in liners.
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Unread 07-31-2010, 08:19 PM   #178
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Dave- I wouldn't worry about checking your frame at this point. If something didn't jump out at you then you're probably okay. My left rear spring just didn't sit right, so I knew something was up.

So I went out to the shop this evening and did the things the guy at the frame shop suggested... I unbolted the left rear spring hanger from the frame. He suggested that the spring might return to its natural position, which it did. It set off about 5/8", just about the same amount my rails are out of whack! So then I started measuring diagonally across the frame at different points. It appears the left side is "longer" than the right. So AJs theory that it got hit in the left rear is kind of supported. On the other hand, the front bumper got whacked on the right side.

I was HOPING that I could just cut through the middle of the rear brace (the one between the rear wheels with the body mounts) with my cutter wheel, spread the rails, and weld the brace back together with a filler piece. But if the frame is tweaked I suppose it will take a little more than that. At least I'm getting closer...

On the down side... my paint is still not hard! I can still scrape it off, although with more effort, with my thumbnail. I can't imagine that it would not be dry, after all this time, even with the humidity. I've never had a problem with this brand of implement paint. The only thing that I did different is cut it with the Naphtha. But that should have dried by now. I'm going to haul it out into the sun for a few hours the first chance I get. If that doesn't fix it then I'll probably reshoot it with UNcut paint to see if it will harden up the current coat. Whatever the result, I'm not stripping it again!
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Unread 08-01-2010, 08:04 AM   #179
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Clay I dont think you have to cut the cross member, you should be able to pull it back into shape. When you do pull overshoot the the zero point to allow for metal hysteresis (the tendency for metal to return back to its original shape) You could try using a good come along connected from opposite corner to opposite corner.

Just let your paint dry it will eventually release all the solvents and get hard. Screwing around with it now could set you back farther than you are now. FYI the old enamel used to take 30 or so days to dry and about 6 months to cure.

As a kid I worked in body shops where acrylic enamal and laquer were the norm. Things have changed I have spent the last 6 months researching and getting up to speed on whats new and what works. The EPA has driven some of these changes and the paint manufactures have driven some of these changes. So that paint product you use may not be the same formulation as a few years ago. As I suggested a while back find a paint jobber in your area and tell them what you are doing and what result you want. Then let them suggest products that will work.

And as your finding out there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat and so many opinions. One of the things I find humorous is how many people complain about the PO (previous owner) and the stuff they did to the Jeep. Well those current owners will be previous owners at some point in time, so take your time and do the job correctly.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 08:52 AM   #180
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Scott,

I don't know if the implement paint is oil base or not, but I painted my utility with Rustoleum heavy rust primer followed by their gloss black oil base paint and it took a long time to cure, but once it did it is hard!

I agree with gmakra, let it cure if you can but I don't know your schedule with the build.
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