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Unread 06-09-2010, 07:56 PM   #1
Ken4444
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Carter BBD stepper pin problem

1985, 258, manual trans.

So while doing the Nutter Bypass I ran into problems with the stepper motor pins.

It appears that one of the pins is missing, and the other pin appears to be locked in place. It jiggles around and spins freely, but looks like it's locked in with a snap ring.

Here is a view of the rear of the carb where the stepper motor connects. You're seeing an image in a mirror, because I couldn't get my head or the camera back there. You can see marks where I tried pull the pin out with needle nose pliers:



Here is the top of the carb, looking down into it:



Here is the same image as above, but cropped closer.



This is the same as above, but has an arrow showing what looks to be a snap ring. I think that's the right term. I think this is a ring that snaps into a grove.



Here's the stepper as it looked when i pulled it off:



Here are a couple of non-needle pics:

Here's the front of th carb. "1" has no connection. "2" is stopped up. "Nutter" shows the "Y" that was plugged after doing the Nutter Bypass. I still need to get a proper cover/stopper for it.



This shows the back of the carb. The circle shows a vac line that that has an angled piece in it. Not sure if this is of concern or not. It's not a "Y". I suspect it is PO hack.



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Unread 06-09-2010, 08:17 PM   #2
JeepHammer
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Number 1 is the high idle solenoid, used with automatic transmission only.

#2 is a vacuum port, usually unused.
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Unread 06-09-2010, 08:21 PM   #3
JeepHammer
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This gadget is the 'Stepper' motor,
It's an idle air controller motor and should have pins attached to the slots in that plate showing.

More like this,



Looks like someone may have cut down and wedged the pins in the carb...



You can quite plainly see the saw marks on the back of the remaining pin,
And the little pin is missing all together!

That SUCKS for you, but you are on the trail now, so I'm sure between you and the rest of the guys around here,
You all will come up with something!

If it were me, I'd pull the pin that's in there,
Find someone on the internet that has a BBD with motor attached and have them send you the motor/pins so you can control the depth of the pins, and plug up that air leak where the little pin is missing.

It won't be operational, but at least the motor will hold the pins where they need to be instead of some idiot just jamming them in there and partially securing with a 'E' clip!
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Unread 06-09-2010, 08:26 PM   #4
Ken4444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Looks like someone may have cut down and wedged the pins in the carb...
That SUCKS for you, but you are on the trail now, so I'm sure between you and the rest of the guys around here,
You all will come up with something!
It's just another one of those paths that I'm going to have to venture down to reverse time and correct sins of the past.

If that really is a snap ring, itshould have a break in it I'm going to try to pull it off. But even then, if the pins has been cut off, that's not good. My best hope would be to find a BBD that's hitting the trash and use it for parts. I doubt I can but new stepper motor pins.

Imagine all those Carters that people threw out to be replaced with something better...

Maybe Romain has a stash of BBD parts somewhere
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Unread 06-09-2010, 09:14 PM   #5
86cj74.2L
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go to a junk yard and snag one of of anything AMC ......I believe between 84 and 86 at least.

I did the Nutter bypass and kept the PCM in charge of the mixture control. Works great......

Every so often a little tweeking is needed to account for more throttle shaft wear.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 04:40 AM   #6
Mike Romain
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Ouch, someone has had fun with that carb.

How is it running? How is the mileage?

I have heard of folks messing with or removing the pins and blocking the holes some how, then using a sniffer to reset the high speed jet. The gent said it took lot of tweaking ad fussing around to do. 'That' job took a whole pile of fussing around to do for sure, a whole lot. Maybe someone did something like that to it if it runs ok?

If it runs like a bag of dirt, well then as mentioned maybe someone can send you a couple pins from a trashed one.

As for the vacuum lines, the back of the carb looks ok, that line goes to the air filter TAC flaps. here is a breakdown on the vacuum lines: Vacuum Hose Hook Ups - JeepForum.com
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Unread 06-10-2010, 05:48 AM   #7
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The engine starts right up and runs well. Gas mileage is only 13 MPG and the exhaust has always been strong smelling. I suspect the engine isn't giving me as much power as it could, although it's rare that I really need more power.

I will round up a used carb and either 1) rebuild it and install that, or 2) borrow the pins from it and stick them in the existing carb. If I can get a complete used carb then, option 1 is probably the preferred route.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 09:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken4444 View Post
The engine starts right up and runs well. Gas mileage is only 13 MPG and the exhaust has always been strong smelling. I suspect the engine isn't giving me as much power as it could, although it's rare that I really need more power.

I will round up a used carb and either 1) rebuild it and install that, or 2) borrow the pins from it and stick them in the existing carb. If I can get a complete used carb then, option 1 is probably the preferred route.
You can get rid of the skunk in the tail pipe by putting the vaccume advance on full manifold vacuum instead of the ported vacuum off the carb. Though rich is still rich. Cammed up motors also respond well to this and run cooler to boot.

Forgot to mention.....I paralleled the Dizzy wires for to the PCM with an MSD I had laying around. I control the timming it controls the mixture.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 11:09 PM   #9
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I agree that timing advance, or I should say lack of it is most all of the issue causing that stink. While visiting your other thread and after viewing your plugs we can see that a over rich mix is not the issue.

If you used the diagram that you questioned on the http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/va...ypass-1047507/ thread then you will be missing a lot of timing advance. That amount of what would be available but leaked by cause of the EGR as well as the amount of loss of computer timing adjustment after the nutter.

Then you should consider the severely limited amount of centrifugal advance found in the designed for computer controlled dizzy.

In the photo above you have indicator #2 at the "E" nipple. That is the one that you should be using for the EGR vacuum source rather than the "S" when using it as timing advance. It is what the "E" nipple was intended to be used for.

Take note that if you decide to use the available "E" nipple feeding direct to the EGR then you will need a forward vacuum delay valve, not the reverse delay valve that you may have noticed being written in that referenced thread. If you decide to give the intended for use "E" nipple for the EGR and run it to the CTO onto the same side as you have the tube running to the EGR then no delay valve would be necessary, not to mention having gained that lost vacuum signal while depending on that erroneous diagram.

Now back to the previous post,which I find most intriguing and hope that he will share more of how he connected and maintains air pin control. He mentions using manifold vacuum for timing advance, I could not agree more. If you will look closely at most all of the original vacuum routing diagrams you will see that manifold vacuum was always in that mix.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 01:02 AM   #10
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Nice pics

I can't offer any input on the carb issue, but nice job with the pictures.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 04:22 AM   #11
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmud View Post
I agree that timing advance, or I should say lack of it is most all of the issue causing that stink. While visiting your other thread and after viewing your plugs we can see that a over rich mix is not the issue.
The stepper pins are air bypass pins so if they are missing (one) it goes full lean, if they are shoved all the way in, (the other one) it goes full rich. The lower pin is larger which is missing so he may be running lean or even ok or who knows?
Quote:

In the photo above you have indicator #2 at the "E" nipple. That is the one that you should be using for the EGR vacuum source rather than the "S" when using it as timing advance. It is what the "E" nipple was intended to be used for.
We have compare factory vacuum setups on this forum (John Strenk had a bunch) and I have the FSM for the 84-86 and for some reason Jeep didn't always use the E port for the EGR or the canister, they use the S port. The E port comes capped on most, like my 86's.

Are you 'sure' it is a bleed off EGR? Most of those have a second port, the Jeep one on mine is single port. There were about 5 flavors of EGR for the 258 last time I went to buy them.

Good point though, the EGR can just run that way still through the CTO and TVS, but off the E port.

Same for the canisters, some are hooked direct to the S port, no CTO. These engines would likely have the different choke model that is available, one that opens slower.

Quote:
If you will look closely at most all of the original vacuum routing diagrams you will see that manifold vacuum was always in that mix.
Stock mine mixed vacuums. It used manifold vacuum for cold running and ported for hot running, lots were set up that way. (emissions?)
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Unread 06-11-2010, 10:44 AM   #12
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I can see using manifold vacuum for cold and ported for hot on engines with poor design with regards to emissions.

manifold vacuum while cold.....needs more timing with a cold engine.

Ported vacuum warmed up.......it increases the exhaust temp at idle to allow a more efficient cat operation with air injection.

All my mother in laws CJ7 (you could call it mine as well) is hooled up to is manifold vacuum. Been that way for at least 5 years now. With that set up it has in the mid 20's for advance instead of about 0. I'd love to get a advance weight set for the older engines that go higher then the 86 factory one.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 11:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
The stepper pins are air bypass pins so if they are missing (one) it goes full lean, if they are shoved all the way in, (the other one) it goes full rich. The lower pin is larger which is missing so he may be running lean or even ok or who knows?
Yes sir I know about the pins. What I've referred to is seeing the plugs, pins or no, they appear darn good within the realization that they are what I would consider just a slight tad lean, mostly due to the air pins being removed. That in its self indicates how little effect they (the pins) actually have while the mix screws have been set to accommodate for them while they are set into a fixed position, or in this case missing altogether.

Now if the pins are restored some adjustment to the mix screws will likely be necessary, if i were asked what to do in this instance my suggestion knowing how badly the BBD wears at the throttle rod bore would be that he replace that one with a reman. non stepper BBD.
Quote:
I have compare factory vacuum setups on this forum (John Strenk had a bunch) and I have the FSM for the 84-86 and for some reason Jeep didn't always use the E port for the EGR or the canister, they use the S port. The E port comes capped on most, like my 86's.
Yeah I have several TSM's and have viewed many vacuum routing diagrams.
This is why I have suggested that the '84-'86 routing layouts not be used once the vehicle has been nuttered. At that point those have been rendered ineffective when good engine performance is considered.

Most every 49 state '83's and all of the '84-'86's were also equipped with the ECM it controled the CEC system. The computer took up the slack and that bleed as well as others was an intrigual part of that system.

Quote:
Are you 'sure' it is a bleed off EGR? Most of those have a second port, the Jeep one on mine is single port. There were about 5 flavors of EGR for the 258 last time I went to buy them.

Good point though, the EGR can just run that way still through the CTO and TVS, but off the E port.

Same for the canisters, some are hooked direct to the S port, no CTO. These engines would likely have the different choke model that is available, one that opens slower.
Yes there are several EGR's and the chance of locating the one which fit the application is slim.

It is my understanding that spring rates make up the the differences between them all once the MCU was introduced. There again due to the system of engine management used. Some 4.2's had the HD cooling, some were set for higher altitudes, some had manual trans, some even had air then some went to California, while others used a restrictor plate with it.

Yeah I'm almost certain that this users EGR as well as most all others EGR bleeds. A simple test would be to start the engine and allow it to fully warm up while having a hand held vacuum pump/gauge connected to the EGR nipple and have a go with trying to have it hold vacuum, at any rpm range you choose. I mention the rpm range since I've read that exhaust back pressure is necessary before activation occurs. Maybe so however it is still my opinion that it leaks air up to that point and then again after at the same rate that it is applied.

Quote:
Stock mine mixed vacuums. It used manifold vacuum for cold running and ported for hot running, lots were set up that way. (emissions?)
If you are referring to the NLVR and it gained signal through a temp switch then once the engine is warmed it did allow either manifold or ported but never both, it is non-linear.

With it an 8"Hg manifold was held to the dizzy which amounted to at least 3* advance (depending on the vacuum advance mechanism used and then how the spring in it is adjusted it may allow as much as 6 possibly 7*) until the ported source exceeded that amount and then it maintained full ported until it dropped away, going back to the manifold signal. Never adding the two together, until of course it failed, which dosen't take long at all. I wish I had a source for them as they offer the best of both worlds.

Then we may see instances where manifold and ported were used for advance control as both were applied to the CTO and this is where the Reverse delay valve was found in line with that manifold signal.

This too is a very good thing.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 11:19 AM   #14
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Ken, I believe the carb I pulled off the 258 I bought from Calvin is a 258, it ran fine as far as I know. PM if you are interested.
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Unread 06-11-2010, 01:27 PM   #15
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Ken another thing to consider in all this mess is to replace the intake and exhaust manifold gasket while it is half apart.

I am farily certain that a lot of people replaced their BBD with something else and discovered it still ran like crap. (I was one of them)

If the gasket kit doesn't have an insert for the intake don't use it.
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