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Unread 11-23-2011, 04:48 PM   #1
chooster5000
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Camshaft out 180 degrees ??

Hey everyone so I was telling my dads friend about how badly my jeep sucks on power and from eveything that I told him about, such as the thing spitting and sputuring, he remembers his buddys putting a cam in a 350 chevy 180 out and the thing ran but not great, I was thinking that it might be the same with the jeep because it ran but woth no power. So got it apart today and sure enough it was out 180. We switched it around and did the 2 points together and the looked good, did the 15 pin count on the chain and its was on. We got it sarted and seemed to run better and more quiet, hoping when I get it together ill see a day and night difference in power or just a little, I mean come on its a 75 232 with a 4 barrel holly and a pacesetter header on it should pull something.

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Unread 11-23-2011, 05:35 PM   #2
halpeters
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The cam gear should be out 180 degrees every other rotation of the crank.

If you had rotated the crank 360 degrees (one full rotation), the alignment points would have lined up.

The cam rotates at "half speed" to the crank. This means that the crank makes 2 full rotations for each 1 full rotation of the cam.

Hal
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Unread 11-23-2011, 06:15 PM   #3
Mickey_D
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Yeah, you can't really have the cam 180 degrees out. The distributor? Yes. The cam? Not really.
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Unread 11-23-2011, 06:25 PM   #4
gojeepin
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While I agree with the gents above, you can get the cam and the crankshaft off by a tooth or two but it would run very rough.

Some of the 258s (maybe the 232s as well) used a sprocket on the timing set that had nylon teeth to keep them from being so noisy. Broken teeth or a loose chain can cause the timing to jump.
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Unread 11-29-2011, 06:11 PM   #5
chooster5000
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Well the old timing chain was pretty loose but i cant see it being out so far. The teeth looked fine i think someone messed it up from the start. After timing it to 20 degrees advanced the thing runs pretty good now, i couldn't even begin to climb the hills around here in 4th and now i can so we did something right. The timing gears were lined up on the exhaust stroke and now there lined up on the overlap i think, or the intake stroke.
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Unread 11-29-2011, 06:33 PM   #6
Foundrydude
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You have a fundamental misunderstanding about how engines work and 20 degrees advanced is WAY too much. It may seem like you found a bunch of low end torque but it's also pinging like crazy even if you don't hear it.
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Unread 11-29-2011, 07:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
You have a fundamental misunderstanding about how engines work
^^^^^^^^^this
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Unread 11-29-2011, 09:31 PM   #8
keith460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foundrydude View Post
You have a fundamental misunderstanding about how engines work and 20 degrees advanced is WAY too much.
In a nut shell, every internal combustion engine ever built by mankind that is 4 stroke, the timing is set by the #1 piston at TDC (Top Dead Center) and during the compression stroke. If it is done any other way, it will not be correct and that includes setting of cams, distributors, timing belts, etc.

Again, #1 piston @ TDC.... Compression Stroke, NOT the Exhaust Stroke.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 12:12 AM   #9
JeepHammer
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WOW!
I don't know what to say...

If you get the CAMSHAFT in a DIESEL engine 180 degrees out (In 6 cylinders, with opposed throws on the crank at 180 degrees apart), it will run, but not well.

If you get the CAMSHAFT in a gasoline engine 180 Degrees out, it shouldn't run at all!
You would be firing the cylinders on the top of the exhaust stroke.
All you SHOULD get was a HUGE fireball out of the exhaust and intake since valve overlap would have both valves open...

Now, you CAN get the DISTRIBUTOR in a gasoline I-6 engine 180 degrees out, and it will fire, but it won't produce enough power to pull the vehicle most times with modern overlap camshafts...

A camshaft installed 180 out in a gasoline engine won't run at all, just spit and pop through the carb, with an IMPRESSIVE pop through the exhaust every once in a while.
I've seen that several times in all different makes of engines... (Gotta love home builders! They can screw ANYTHING up at one time or another!...)

I believe I would have to see this one to believe it...

I've seen a BUNCH in my years, but just when I say I've, "SEEN IT ALL" someone comes along and proves me wrong!
Had one a few years back,
The guy was racing, purchased a camshaft, installed it, and this guy had built his own engines before without issues... We did the machine work, ordered parts, ect.
But he came up with a 'Secret Weapon' camshaft, and didn't want anyone to know about it...

So when the engine would NOT run, and he's spent about three weeks trying to figure it out, he dragged it into the shop and told us to 'Fix It'...

Now, it had me baffled for a while... About an hour until I got the degree wheel and dial indicators out to check lift, duration on his 'Secret Weapon' camshaft...

Then I was TOTALLY BAFFLED!
Nothing came up correctly! The stupid thing wasn't even CLOSE!

So when we ran the numbers, it was a REVERSE ROTATION/Reversed firing order camshaft for MARINE APPLICATIONS with a two gear drive, and he was trying to run it with a timing chain!
Took me two weeks to stop laughing about that!

It's amazing what tuns up at swap meets, or what people turn up 'Discounted'...
(Some discount! Wiped out a new camshaft, new set of lifters, and took up about 5 hours of shop time!)
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Unread 11-30-2011, 07:15 AM   #10
gosupes
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It's the camshaft rotation in relation to the crank that determines if it's a compression or an exhaust stroke. You set the #1 piston up at the top. Install the cam. If you index the cam correctly, the #1 valve are closed and the piston is on the compression stroke. If you indexed the cam 180* out, the #1 piston is on the exhaust stroke. Rotate the crank one revolution and, ta da, the piston is back on the compression stroke. With a single cam engine, I would really like to see a cam 180* out. halpeters and Mickey D had it right.
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It's just a Jeep, and if you don't wheel it once in a while, it's not even that.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 09:13 AM   #11
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Ever turn a reverse rotation/revers firing order marine camshaft running BACKWARDS in an engine?
Two gear timing sets run the camshaft REVERSE normal chain rotation (or 'Idler' gear sets which turn the camshaft the 'Correct' direction for automotive engines)...

Trust me, the camshaft approach and departure angles alone are enough to wipe out lifters, not to mention you have the firing order (plug wires) wired backwards for the cam,
Just a disaster waiting to happen...

Ever seen a camshaft with BOTH dots pointing 'UP' run?
Even if you get the camshaft rotated down in line with the crank, and you DIDN'T drop the distributor in 180 degrees out (which usually happens when they get the cam in up side down),

The camshaft will still be advanced or retarded.
The timing chain set only goes on ONE way 'Correctly', you will be about 1/2 tooth retarded or advanced on camshaft timing no matter what you do, the dots will never line up with the cam/crank center lines...

Ever seen an engine run when someone gets the lower sprocket on the WRONG keyway slot?
Nothing like having the camshaft 30 degrees advanced or retarded and still trying to fire the cylinders!
Either you are firing 30 degrees TOO SOON, which means the piston is being forced to go back down on the crank the way it comes up,
Or you are firing 30 crankshaft degrees too late, VERY good way find yourself with broken pistons/rods in the oil pan, and maybe even break the main caps...

Some engines are a LOT more than 30 degrees between slots on the lower sprocket, so the damage will be even worse...

You just gotta love a 'One Size Fits Nothing' drive set with three or for key ways and 3 or 4 locating 'Dots'!
Enough to drive a sober man to drink sometimes!

-------------------

Because of the link/sprocket tooth count, you MUST get the lower sprocket on the CORRECT keyway slot. The 'Dot' might not be in the 'Correct' place, but the drive teeth MUST be in the correct place to get the camshaft in the engine with it's 'Dot' directly 'Down' inline between camshaft and crankshaft center lines...

You MUST get the crank at TDC for #1.

You MUST get the camshaft in the engine with the 'Dot' facing DOWN,

You MUST get the top sprocket facing down IN CENTER LINE with the cam/crank bores.

This is the ONLY way to get the tooth count right in the chain for the camshaft to come up when it's supposed to.

The crank at TDC is NON-NEGOTIABLE, it MUST be held at PRECISELY TDC.

I ALWAYS use a degree wheel and a dial indicator on the #1 rocker arms to see if the rockers are moving at the CORRECT crank degree and CLOSING at the correct crank degree before I button an engine up.
You never know what the cam griders have done, the timing set makers have done...
One hungover day and that cam locating pin could be drilled in the wrong place, or the guy that stamps/machines the dimples in the timing sprockets could have screwed up...

That's the JOB of the builder, to double check EVERYTHING...
Just like taking the casting flash off the sprocket sets, removing burrs from the cam lobe edges, lining up the oil passages and making sure they are clear...
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Unread 11-30-2011, 10:29 AM   #12
cj5752
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I don't think the cam was in wrong. I think he just realigned it using a different approach. From the sound of it the balancer is not correct and he has been running the timing retarded. Now he has advanced it and it runs better. OR there is no vacuum or mechanical advance and he is running 20* total advance. I would try to verify the timing and all it's elements.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 01:12 PM   #13
Foundrydude
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Actually I think the OP has the wrong expectation of a 4 liter's off-idle torque production, especially when equipped with a torque killing hedder and 4bbl. He's trying to pull hills in high gear like a V8. And by over-advancing the timing, found 30 ft-lbs off idle and thinks it's due to messing with the timing chain.

When an engine is over-advanced you find a bunch of off-idle torque but it comes at the expense of WOT power and pinging under load. On a vehicle with a lot of drivetrain noise like a manual tranny CJ it will be very easy to overlook pinging.

Timing absolutely needs to be verified at this point. As noted in the post above, all elements. Mechanical, vacuum, and initial.

good luck to the OP
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Unread 11-30-2011, 01:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gosupes View Post
It's the camshaft rotation in relation to the crank that determines if it's a compression or an exhaust stroke. You set the #1 piston up at the top. Install the cam. If you index the cam correctly, the #1 valve are closed and the piston is on the compression stroke. If you indexed the cam 180* out, the #1 piston is on the exhaust stroke. Rotate the crank one revolution and, ta da, the piston is back on the compression stroke. With a single cam engine, I would really like to see a cam 180* out. halpeters and Mickey D had it right.
I agree,but will add we are talking 180 CAMSHAFT degrees,not crankshaft deg.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 05:48 PM   #15
gosupes
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Originally Posted by bruteboy View Post
I agree,but will add we are talking 180 CAMSHAFT degrees,not crankshaft deg.
Doesn't matter. Rotate the crank 360* and the cam will rotate 180*. The only way that things can go south is if there is multiple key slots on the crank gear and/or multiple pin index's on the cam gear and you don't pay attention to the drawings in the manual when installing the gears. If there is only one slot on the crank gear and one pin index on the cam gear, and you set the dots per the manual (lets say 12 for the crank and 6 for the cam) and count the links, you're basically set. Rotate the crank 360* and now the dots are at 12 and 12, or the cam would seem 180* out. I think the issue is people are getting confused with the cam gear or crank gear being indexed incorrectly. If the cam gear was installed 180* out on the cam, when the marks were lined up it would look to be 180* out.

And the OP question was never about reverse rotation marine engines trying to run in normal rotation. That just added confusion to the mix. It's just a single cam engine people, it's not that difficult.
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It's just a Jeep, and if you don't wheel it once in a while, it's not even that.
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